Starting 'em young

[Daniel Rogov]

The question of the involvement of children and wine/alcohol is not a new one and I find it simultaneously sad and amusing that some show shock that young children have become "involved" with wine, some even indicating that the times they have indeed a'changed and that this "situation" is worse now than in earlier days.

A few comments -

Children have always been involved with wine. Sometimes because of the wisdom of their parents that involvement has been in moderation and with a social-socializing influence, at other times it has had to do with the greed of some selling such beverages and targeting them towards youth.

I doubt that the situation has changed very much in recent years. In ancient Egypt, even before the well known exodus of the Jews, the Pharaohs were so concerned with the drunkeness of youth that laws were passed forbidding serving alcohol or wines (mostly fruit wines) to those under the age of 14. In ancient Rome, both Apicius and Lucullus expressed outrage that young children were often to be found wandering the streets in a drunken stupor. No, not much has changed but if it has, it has been change for the better.

It goes without saying that drunkenness, whether in children or adults, is an excess. Such excess is worse and more harmful in children of course and that because young children are not capable of making informed decisions as regards their future health and well being.

Even when not in excess, young adolescents have been buying beer and other alcoholic beverages whenever and wherever possible, at least for as long as human memory serves; in many segments of society part of growing up (and a possibly quite healthy part) means stealing one of the family cigars, a few "shots" of whiskey, getting drunk enough to become sick. Certainly by the time of university a critical part of one's education is the occasional binge. None of which I perceive as "bad", so long as it is within the framework of development among ones peers and when it serves (as often it does) to make one realize that there are better ways to relate to such beverages. It becomes bad only when it threatens the health or well being of oneself or others. That, of course, includes driving under the influence of any alcoholic beverage.

To me a large part of the solution has always been evident - parents who enjoy alcoholic beverages (wine or any other) in a moderate way should encourage their children to have a sip of this or a sip of that, to discuss the beverage that is being consumed, to relate it to history, ethnicity, religion and culture - to introduce them not only to the flavors but to the pleasures of civilized behavior. I agree fully that children who are taught to value things (whatever those may be) in moderation and as part of the civilized way, tend to become moderate and civilized when they become young adults and later fully adults. And that is true no matter at what age our children are!

Simply stated, no matter what prohibitions we set on our children, at a certain age they will be exposed to alcohol via their peers. If children are prepared for that exposure, they will not overdo or if they do it will be merely as an occasional part of the growing up process. Responsibility in this case falls almost entirely on the child-rearing process, and in this case that means the parents and immediate family of the children in question.

Is the situation worse today because children think that drinking wine can be "cool". I truly doubt it. Take a peek at any of the etchings of Hogarth to see how drunken children were at one time part of the norm within England; read Chateaubriand to understand how infant drunkenness (yes, infant) was a major problem within France. The opposite in fact - in fact, I rather enjoy hearing a six or ten year old analyze why he/she prefers white wines to red, why Chardonnay to Emerald Riesling, why wine to beer. Obviously I am not talking about drunken and ribald children. I am talking about children who are on their way to becoming civil and cultured adults. I'm one of those odd people - I trust children. But that of course is simply one person's opinion.

It should go without saying, but to be on the safe side, I'll say it anyhow - children or adults who have any allergy to alcohol of any kind should be taught abstention and taught how to value themselves for being abstemious. As to the specific case that Brad brings up, I feel qualified to comment in only one way – and that is to recommend that the entire family, including the child go into these issues in as much detail as is required with the guidance of a trusted and competent psychologist.

[LindaJ]

Well, of course, serving alcohol to a minor (under age 21 where I am) is a crime. That may not be your philosophy as a parent and you may think it overly intrusive by government, but there you are. Your position as a parent is not good if someone does not agree that children should be socialized into moderate consumption by trying the stuff. Officer Friendly can show up at your door.

I'll educate my daughter about wine because I'm obsessed with it. She'll learn to appreciate it the way she'll learn to appreciate other agricultural products. Wine is a wonderful way to learn about geography, history, agriculture, business, politics and a slew of other things. But drinking wine will be for adults the way other things are like driving and voting. Our society expects that a certain age level is required to assume the responsibility. I think teens are mature enough to drink at age 18, but that's not the rules I've been given to follow. So until the law changes or the rules change, she'll not be drinking until she's legal.

[Pan]

Linda, minors can't drive where you live?

[Terrasanct]

So until the law changes or the rules change, she'll not be drinking until she's legal.

Not at home, anyway.

[jsolomon]

Linda, minors can't drive where you live?

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No comments about my drinking habits, but I was driving in pastures, fields, and gravel farm roads at 3, and driving on public highways at 6.

Even beyond that, I was driving a couple of hundred-thousand dollars of farm equipment several highway miles with no supervision by the time I was 11.

My bottom line with those statements is that children will generally perform up to your expectations of them given proper supervision and leeway. Good expectations or bad expectations.

[LindaJ]

Linda, minors can't drive where you live?

In the state I grew up in, you got your learner's permit at 15 1/2 and license at 16. I'm just saying society sets certain age guidelines and it's in my best interest to follow them. Here in the Philly area, a father was recently teaching his daughter to drive. She lost control and killed a young mother. Tragic accident. They are throwing the book at the father legally because the teen was just too darn young to have been behind the wheel.

I know a young man in college who has never drunk illegally because his parents explained to him all the implications from a personal and legal standpoint. He HAS drunk legally WITH his parents while on vacation in areas where the drinking age was 18. I actually have no problem with that and would introduce my child to wine if we were in a country where that was an accepted tradition. But I agree with the jist of Brad's postings that there's lots of ways to teach moderation other than having the kids actually drink the stuff. I'm pretty optimistic about parenthood I guess. Then again, she's not quite tall enough to reach the top of the carboy where I'm fermenting some home made juice so my attitude might change in 15 years or so.

[Daniel Rogov]

To paraphrase Mr. Bumble, the law can be an awful ass at times! I would comfortably wager that given the opportunity to taste and yes, even sip a bit of wine under the supervision and tutelage of parents starting at even a quite early age would protect children far more from the future perils of alcoholism or alcohol abuse than any law forbidding us to serve them wine in our homes or to allow them a sip from our glass in a fine restaurant.

This is not the place to get into this in depth but one of the highest moral obligations is the overturning of laws that impose on true morality or on the common good. And at least since the days of Plato, one of the accepted ways of overturning such laws is by disobeying them. As Thomas Paine so nicely put it....the disobedience of an immoral law is not the way to anarchy. It is one of the paving stones of democracy. True morality comes not from blind obedience to the law but to dedication to morality itself.

[rich]

Well, of course, serving alcohol to a minor (under age 21 where I am) is a crime.

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The laws vary from state to state on this. While it is illegal to serve alcohol (or allowing them to purchase) to people under a certain age in bars, restaurants etc., many states do not prohibit serving your own children at home. What is illegal is the abuse of children at home at that includes abuse of alcohol as well as other things.

But then again, it's illegal to serve alcohol to adults at home to the point of intoxication.

[chezcherie]

The laws vary from state to state on this. While it is illegal to serve alcohol (or allowing them to purchase) to people under a certain age in bars, restaurants etc., many states do not prohibit serving your own children at home. What is illegal is the abuse of children at home at that includes abuse of alcohol as well as other things.

But then again, it's illegal to serve alcohol to adults at home to the point of intoxication.

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I thought this was so---the bit about serving your own children at home. Thanks for posting that. (I believe that it is illegal, as well as extremely ill-advised, to serve other people's children---any minors other than your own minors---as much as a wee drap.)

[Rebel Rose]

She'll learn to appreciate it the way she'll learn to appreciate other agricultural products. Wine is a wonderful way to learn about geography, history, agriculture, business, politics and a slew of other things.

I agree entirely. In fact, I find it alarming that discussion here among wine lovers is still so . . . phobic.

My 13-year-old stepson lives at a winery. He is not offered wine, nor does he expect to be offered wine. He does, however, hoe the vineyard rows, and like other vignerons' kids, his favorite privilege in the whole world is getting to ride the ATV up and down the vineyard rows on errands. His second favorite job is operating the pressure washer--he's supposed to spray out the bins as we empty them, but we pretty much accept that everyone and everything nearby will somehow get doused. In fact, I started this thread after observing him observing us the other night crushing fruit. He was surfing around the crush pad on the pallet jack, far more interested in how the equipment works (primarily the buttons) than the wine, but he did ask about the quality of the grapes.

He's not allowed to drive, but he's fascinated by cars, reads car magazines and memorizes every speed and safety rating he comes across. He writes school papers on cars. He also wrote a two-part short story in school titled "My Secret Vineyard," in which he and his dog (an ATV also featured prominently) discovered a neglected, weed-choked vineyard, and brought it back to health.

Kids here are surrounded by vineyards and wineries and they accept that wine, like marriage, sex, driving, credit cards, and their own apartment, is something they can look forward to as an adult. So why not involve our children in interesting discussions about our wine collection or wine choices? As Linda points out, a single bottle can spark a discussion about geography, history and politics. Champagne riots, Hitler's stolen wine collection, French resistance, bombed vineyards . . . ah, the stories! The passion!

Do you know that tarantulas in the vineyard at harvest are considered a sign of good luck, and an omen of a good vintage?

Did you know that bats are encouraged to roost around wineries, because a single small brown bat can eat 5,000 fruit flies a night?

What else can we teach our children about wine?

[Curlz]

Very interesting thread, Brad. First, let me add my kudos to you; sounds like you're trying to do the very best you can by your daughter! As we know, most of the time, that's all that parents can do. Hopefully she'll see the difference between the lessons she's learning in your house vs. the ones she had before coming there.

I grew up in a house with a dad who was (and still is) a wine educator. He's always saying that by the time I was 15, I had tasted more great wines than most people do in a lifetime. I did learn to swirl the glass (and why) and check the nose (and why) and to sip and not guzzle alcohol (and why)! And guess what? I've always been lucky--I've been able to be a moderate drinker, indulging (and overindulging) when I choose to, and not drinking at all for (GASP) weeks at a time just because there's no reason to. We were always allowed a taste of something, but 95% of the time, it was wine, as that's dad's profession. There was a fully stocked liquor shelf in the house, but it could gather dust for months in between use, and it just didn't tempt me, because I knew that if I wanted to try it, all I had to do was ask.

When I was in high school and had a New Year's Eve party, anyone who wanted to drink wine coolers (hey--it was the early 80s...gimme a break!) had to hand their keys over to my folks when they arrived, and they didn't get them back until after breakfast the next morning. Same for my h.s. graduation party. And when I went off to college and cringed at the crap people called beer and at the peach schnapps and other sickly-sweet drinks that my fellow students were getting sick on, I had a bottle of name-brand vodka and a bottle of (mediocre) wine in my closet at all times. And I didn't go through either on a weekly basis--imagine that.

I guess my bottom line is something that has been said by many on this thread...don't make it taboo, but do make it a learning experience. With kids who can handle it, I think the results are/will be positive. Of course, you do have to take in to account a history of alcoholism, but I would hope that anyone who has dealt with it would consider the potential effects on observers and relatives.

[Rebel Rose]

Lessons bear fruit

Santa Rosa High agriculture students undertake first harvest from school vineyard

Wednesday was a learning experience for students and a day to celebrate the inaugural harvest of Santa Rosa High School's long-planned vineyard in northeast Santa Rosa. Most of the grapes were picked by Kendall-Jackson vineyard workers but four students took time out of class to help with the harvest.

"I love it in the vineyard. I would rather be picking grapes than talking to people," said Abby Roche, 17, a high school senior who plans to study vineyard management in college. She said the school vineyard has helped her to focus on a viticultural career.

[Capaneus]

She'll learn to appreciate it the way she'll learn to appreciate other agricultural products. Wine is a wonderful way to learn about geography, history, agriculture, business, politics and a slew of other things.

I agree entirely. In fact, I find it alarming that discussion here among wine lovers is still so . . . phobic.

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I honestly don't know how to feel about all this. I grew up in Portugal, where it was normal for a child to go to the store to buy wine or beer for the household. I never drank much (except once, by accident), and never found the stuff that interesting - because no one around me found it interesting, not adults, not children. Then I attended college in the States, where my peers had a deep and thirsty interest in alcohol, all forms and flavors. And in that context I drank to excess, what today we call bingeing, and repeatedly made an ass of myself, until it became clear to me that there was a problem, at which point I became a moderate drinker. Nothing in my Portuguese relaxed-about-wine background seemed to innoculate me to the peer pressure and social anxieties that lead young people to drink heavily in this country.

Based on my experience, I would say that the educational approach probably works - with *some* kids, and up to a point. Given the very real problems with teens and drinking, I think prohibition, deeply flawed as it is, porous as it is, is probably the best alternative for this country. I just don't think that at the end ofthe day education trumps culture.

[Megan Blocker]

An interesting twist to throw into the conversation...an article from today's NY Times about a young "vineyard prodigy" - he's 20! Here's a link.

[raisab]

I am also one of those who has let my children taste wine at the table since they were small. They have also gone on vineyard tours in the US and Europe (mostly France). My son can tell you the different gradings of vineyards in France (Grand cru, Premiere, etc). I occasionally will ask my daughter or my son ages 12 & 15 to go down to the cellar and choose a wine for dinner.

Will this help them to be more responsible? Well at home it certainly will, and when they mature entirely, I know it will. Now when they get together with their friends (teenagers), we all know how influential peer pressure can be. It seems like 4 teenagers with above average intelligence suddenly start sharing one brain! It is considered cool to get drunk. We have an extensive wine collection and bar, so it is kept locked at all times. At this stage in their lives I am wise enough to know that their friends influence them alot more than I do. It has always been that way and I imagine it always will.

Edited October 21, 2005 by raisab (log)

[Rebel Rose]

An interesting article on this topic in the Los Angeles Times (requires free registration):

Is home schooling best for drinking?