Certain Restaurants' Wine Lists

[cabrales]

After seeking input on the wine list of Charlie Trotter (a restaurant I am hoping to visit), I thought members active in the Wine forum might enjoy critiquing and pointing out worthwhile bottles on other restaurants' wine lists. Other members visiting the restaurants and less knowledgeable about wine (like myself) would also benefit from knowing which bottles are more promising.

Here are a couple of other wine lists, to gauge members' interest level:

Cello, New York (a restaurant which I plan to revisit shortly)

http://www.cellorestaurant.com/crestdocs/wine.html

Gary Danko, San Francisco

http://www.garydanko.com/site/winelist.html

L'Orangerie, LA

http://www.orangerie.com/wines/wineframe.htm

[Beachfan]

Thanks for the links.  

1) Danko has a lovely assortment of half bottles

2) Pricing seems higher than I care to see (half bottle of beaucastel 99 seemed triple retail)

3) Cello's markup at charging $125 bottle for 98 Chave Offerus is pretty extreme; it's about $25-$30 at retail

4) If you don't care about price, I could certainly recommend some, but they seemed geared towards the obvious labels

5) L'Orangerie has the 1996 Dalle Valle Cabernet for $120, which is fair and a very nice Nap Cab.

6) I think it's telling when a wine list has more wines above $500 than less than $50

7) Bouley and Babbo both have more balanced lists.  And Babbo's pricing is more reasonable if I remember.  

8) Couldn't find links to those,but here is Lupa (below)

9) It would be great if someone with the time could compare prices of similar bottles (not rare ones, but large production ones like Chateau Beaucastel) accross the lists.

Lupa Wine List

[Tonyfinch]

It would be great if someone with the time could compare prices of similar bottles (not rare ones, but large production ones like Chateau Beaucastel) accross the lists.

Beachfan,in the UK a few years ago a newspaper or a guide,I can't remember which,carried out the Cloudy Bay test. It compared the price of the ubiquitous Cloudy Bay NZ Sauvignon Blanc  from the latest vintage on wine lists across the country.

I can't remember all the deatils but you won't be overly surprised to hear that the price varied by incredible amounts-hundreds of percent.

What was interesting was that it wasn't always the swankiest restaurants that were charging the most so you couldn't even point to a pattern in terms of the price level of the food.

There seemed no rhyme nor reason for why one restautant charged this and the other that. Wine pricing is one of the great non-consumer friendly issues of restaurant going and I am surprised and bemused at how easily normally canny people allow themselves to be ripped off.

[Beachfan]

Funny, my first experience with Amarone was in Vencie, the 1993 Allegrini.  I loved it, and at each of the next two restaurants I went to, I ordered it. And the price increased 50% between each restaurant.

To be fair, I should point out that somehow, the first place was selling it at around retail.  They probably bought it on futures or have a long standing relationship with the producers.

[Howie]

While I haven't had a chance to look at the other lists yet, here is the Babbo link, Bouley doesn't have theirs posted. Also I've added Veritas list (which is an absolute library and downloadable by pdf) as well.

http://www.babbonyc.com/wine2.html

http://www.veritas-nyc.com/wine.htm.

[cabrales]

Here is Nobu's wine list:

http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com/Resta...Nobu%20Main.htm

(Click on "Wine List" button to the left)

[Beachfan]

This looks like a fun list.  The Loire wines look like a good match, as well as the Scoffitt.

Sushi isn't an easy match (I usually go with Sake), but this has some interesting possibillities.

[cabrales]

When members provide input, could they consider commenting on particular wines that appear to be a good deal?  For example, at L'Orangerie, Haut Brion Blanc 1988 is $255 and is not at a particularly high mark-up.  And, amusingly, the Vosne Romanee, Henri Jayer 1985 is listed incorrectly at $32! I don't know why the L'Orangerie wine list page has the caption "The Cellar of God" near the top of the page?!  

[cabrales]

The Fat Duck, UK

http://www.fatduck.co.uk/wine_list.html

[Beachfan]

I tried very hard to find a recommendation at Cello and could not.

At Babbo:

Although I haven't had the Altare 1990 Barolo Vigneto Arbolina, I'd love to.  At $295 it isn't cheap, but the market price is quite high on that wine due to it's fabulous reviews.

They have many good values on wine that's a little to young (the Falesco Montiano for example).

I liked the Albino Rocca 1997 Bricco Ronchi at $90 so much at Babbo's that I went out and bought some on the grey market.  Best price I could find - $89.  It came out around $45 before the reviews turned it into unobtanium.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The list at Cello sucks. The wines are mostly from bad vintages and the pricing is outrageous. The only category of wines that are within any reason are Red Wines from Tuscany and certain Alsatians. But for example, they have Trimbach Cuvee Frederich Emile on the list for $110 and I just bought the same vintage for $30 a bottle. Rip-off.

The Gary Danko list is excellent, and they actually have some bottles that are priced high, but within reason. It is stocked with all the hard to get growers like Raveneau, Coche-Dury, etc. Same with the reds, though the pricing seems a bit more aggressive.

L'Orangerie has a great list of Bordeaux, but the pricing is very high, which isn't unusual for restaurant wine lists these days. Not that long ago restaurants were sitting with old stock still to be had cheaply. But the lists got picked over and they have had to go out in the market and restock their cellars. Still, a wine like 1964 Latour can be easily had for $200-$250 at auction and they are selling it at $880.

This is why I almost exclusively eat at places that allow BYO.

[lizziee]

Steve,

We will often bring a white and a red, but also buy one from the list(most notably champagne). Have you ever done that?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Liz - I try and never buy anything from the list. Usually if we end up with a tasting menu and multiple courses, we buy champagne, sweet wine, etc. But I hate paying thos restaurant markups.

[cabrales]

Steve P -- Do sommeliers seem unhappy when you do not order from the list at all?

[Steve Plotnicki]

No. Is it your understanding that sommeliers sort of take it personally? Let me assure you they don't. Wine is a very personal thing. Unless they have a directive from management to turn inventory, and they resent the fact that you brought your own bottles (and BYO is such a small percentage of their business that that can't be the case) they couldn't care less.

The better restaurants that have BYO policies love people who do it. They usually spend the most money on food because brining your own wine usually means you are a serious eater.

[Beachfan]

I concur with Steve P.  The only time I got a frosty reception was at Le Bernandin, and partly my fault because I thoguht they allowed BYO and they didn't.  (The sommelier actually came over and apologized later because he saw I brought a serious wine).  

Jean-Georges ($75 fee is a little hefty, but then the right wine for JG should be a hefty wine), Bouley, GT of course, Tasting Room (buy one, BYO one) almost all California restuarants, and now, many Florida restaurants.

If you establish a rapport with the sommelier (offering a taste to him and the chef helps), it isn't unusual to have the corkage waived.  

My only self imposed requirement is to bring in a wine worthy of the food.   When they see that, they know you care.

[cabrales]

Steve P, lizziee & Beachfan --- Are you familiar enough with a restaurant's menu, and/or bring versatile enough wines, that you know what you bring will match your subsequently-chosen dishes?  Or are there enough people in your dining party that you generally know things will even out?

Do you call in advance to notify the restaurant (including as part of making the reservation) if you know the restaurant generally allows BYO?  

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabrales - The answer to that question is that the wine is usually more important to me (and most BYO people, in fact, that's the point of it all) than the food is. In my experience, very few restaurantas have shockingly good items on the menu that you hadn't heard about in advance from a review or someone else who ate there. But there has been the rare occassion when I bring wine to a restaurant and the food looks so good that I change course, put the wine away because it clashes with the food, and buy something off the list.

[Beachfan]

I'm sort of a maverick with wine/food pairing.  Since I don't eat red meat, I become pretty flexible.  I don't like lobster with Bordeaux.  Beyond that, usually the restaurant type is sufficient to ensure a happy pairing.

Often, I order the food to go with the wine.  But that isn't usually hard for me given my wide open parameters.

I never mention in advance that I'm bringing wine; I do inquire about their BYO policy at reservation time.

[cabrales]

I see. BYO is slightly less attractive to me because (1) I frequently dine alone and would contemplate bringing a bottle (instead of 1/2 bottle each of red and white), (2) the cuisine is much more significant than the wine for me, (3) I frequently find that the actual offerings on the day of visit contain wonderfully unexpected items (relative to even recently updated Website menu listings or signature dishes), and (4) I do not have a wine cellar from which to draw bottles and instead purchase in tiny quantities on a generally "as needed" basis.  However, I do believe wine lists are overpriced and am seeking to formulate a general response to that.  

[La Niña]

What do, for example, GT and Bouley charge for BYO?

[Beachfan]

I see. BYO is slightly less attractive to me because (1) I frequently dine alone and would contemplate bringing a bottle (instead of 1/2 bottle each of red and white), (2) the cuisine is much more significant than the wine for me, (3) I frequently find that the actual offerings on the day of visit contain wonderfully unexpected items (relative to even recently updated Website menu listings or signature dishes), and (4) I do not have a wine cellar from which to draw bottles and instead purchase in tiny quantities on a generally "as needed" basis.  However, I do believe wine lists are overpriced and am seeking to formulate a general response to that.  

Sometimes I only bring a half bottle if I'm dining alone.  There are some lovely wines available in halfs.

Bouley was $35 Corkage.  GT I forget, but it was less, as all Danny Meyer places are ($20?).

Having a cellar is probably central to the BYO lifestyle.  You get excited when you buy it, and then when you take it out to drink, and then hopefully  a third time upon consumption.  Three joys from one bottle.

[mogsob]

I have been to Cello several times, and yes, their wine list does suck price-wise (the Trimbach example is the most glaring point, and actually more expensive than at ADNY).

But, it does have a rather good collection of Austrians and Germans, although the online list does not acurately or sufficiently describe the bottles in question.

Cello, but for the overpriced wine, is a wonderful restaurant.  Just assume you are going to spend a lot for a bottle, pay way too much for it, and just enjoy.  Here are a few choices:

Riesling Smaragd,Weissenkirchner Steinriegl,Weingut Prager 1998 $80 -- the equivalent of a spatlese in Germany, from one Austria's best

Weingut Brundlmayer,Gruner Veltliner,Kamptal 1998 $70 -- probably my top choice and one of the better values on the list, gruner veltliner is one of the unsung white wines of the world and Brundlmayer is one of Austria's stars

Riesling Kabinett,Graacher Himmelreich,Weingut Max Ferd Richter, Mosel 1997 $60 -- particularly good on a hot day, what could be finer than a Kabinett from a great producer? (perhaps the same bottle at $12 buck from the store)

Riesling Kabinett,Selbach-Oster,Mosel 1998 65 -- also a good Kabinett

Riesling Spätlese,Selbach- Oster, Mosel 1997 70 (slightly bigger, both in residual sugar and mouthfeel)

Riesling,Jho.Jos.Christoffel Erben, Mosel 1997 60 -- depends on what this actually is, Christoffel is a great producer, but has some vineyards that are better than others, note that there is no reference to what the wine is (e.g., Kabinett Spatlese etc.)

[cabrales]

Jean-Georges ($75 fee is a little hefty, but then the right wine for JG should be a hefty wine), Bouley, GT of course, Tasting Room (buy one, BYO one) ...

Also Union Pacific.

Thanks to everybody for the responses to date.  

[cabrales]

I'd appreciate input on the ADNY wine list, only excerpts from which are available (unclear reserve list is adequately represented):

http://www.alain-ducasse.com/adny_carte_vins.pdf