Salted Black Beans

[hzrt8w]

Well heck... I missed all the fun. Are you referring to the links in post #8 or can you direct me to the battleground?

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No. The links in post #8 are just Toysanese versus non-Toysanese. They are too civilized.

Try this one. Go ahead and stir up some heat again!

Cantonese food bland

[mudbug]

hzrt8w,

Thank you for the clarification and the link, I'll check it out.

EDIT: Interesting thread... must have been more heated at the time it was alive, just goes to show how human each of us is our individuality and how the experience of life affects each of our perspectives on the world. I could make a couple of statements but don't know if it's worth resurrecting...

BTW: Did you catch my questions to you in post #12?

Edited July 21, 2005 by mudbug (log)

[Dejah]

hzrt8w,

Thank you for the clarification and the link, I'll check it out.

BTW: Did you catch my questions to you in post #12?

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Do you mean:

"what do you use to season the ribs and how much soy sauce before adding water?"

I usually add enough to balance out the saltiness and to enrich the colour.

"Is this with garlic chili paste or fresh minced garlic and red chili peppers?

I mean fresh minced garlic and chopped chili peppers.

[Ben Hong]

A few thoughts on this thread:

I agree with hzrt about buying dau si. I never, ever go near the Yang Jiang brand, they are of very, very poor quality and the only time I bought a container, I opened it at the store counter and both the clerk and I were shocked at the infestation of weevils contained therein, so much so that the contents were a writhing mass.

Mudbug,

Toyshan, Toisan, Hoisaan, Taishan (Mandarin) are all pronunciations used to designate a "region" of Guangdong province, a short distance from Hong Kong/Macau. Taicheng , Taishing, Tois Shing, Hoi Seng are all pronunciations used to indicate the regional centre of Toisan (capital?)

Toyshan or in the local dialect, Hoisaan, was the source of 100% of the Chinese in North America, before 1970. So, if your parents came to North America before that period, I would hazard a guess that they came to the new world from Toisan via Hong Kong. Toisan was the source of the labour that built the railroads, opened the lumber camps, and participated in the 1849 goldrush. From that goldrush, North America was given the nickname of "Gam Shan" or Gold Mountain by the Toisanese '49ers. If you read the whole thread that I started, referred to in post #8, you will get a quick snapshot of what Toisan is.

[mudbug]

"what do you use to season the ribs and how much soy sauce before adding water?"

I usually add enough to balance out the saltiness and to enrich the colour.

Thank you. Have I missed the spices you use to season the ribs?

If you don't wish to comment, I respect that too.

;)

[mudbug]

Ben Hong,

Very informative. I will read the thread when I get a chance to focus on it.

[Dejah]

.

Thank you. Have I missed the spices you use to season the ribs?

If you don't wish to comment, I respect that too.

;)

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I just use the basics: salt, pepper, msg, sugar.

Gota make some soon, so I will try and get some measurements for you. Like most of us here, I cook by " a little of this, a bit more of that"...

[mudbug]

I just use the basics: salt, pepper, msg, sugar.

Ah... the equivalent to the Cajun Trinity only different.

Gota make some soon, so I will try and get some measurements for you. Like most of us here, I cook by " a little of this, a bit more of that"...

Understood. Yes, measurements would be most appreciated if I'm to actually execute the dish to surprise the one who sustains my palette and keeps me fed. Looking forward to it!

[hzrt8w]

hzrt8w,

.....BTW: Did you catch my questions to you in post #12?

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I assume that you were referencing the ribs:

On the ribs... would it be possible for you to guess measurements/quantities of ingredients? I'm not usually the cook in the house and work much better with specifics. I suppose the biggest questions I have are: what do you use to season the ribs and how much soy sauce before adding water?

I, like thousands of other Chinese who cook, don't use any measuring instruments (such as measuring spoons, measuring cups, etc.). And do it by trial-and-error. A pinch of salt here, a dash of sesame oil there. Very often I found it difficult to follow recipe books because there are always things lost when transforming from actions (how to cook, the process) into words, measurements included. When I read a recipe, I note the ingredients and the preparation and cooking processes, and pay very little attention to the quantity/measurement because I always replace what they printed with my own quantity based on my experience and my taste.

Having said that, I am trying my best to convey my way of making "steamed pork ribs with fermented black beans" (I hope this is what you were asking):

- Chopped spare ribs 1 to 1.5 lb

- Ground white pepper 1 teaspoon

- Sesame oil 3 teaspoon

- light soy sauce 3 teaspoon

- salt (optional, to taste)

- Xiaoxing rice wine 3 teaspoon

- corn starch 2 teaspoon

- fermented black beans about 2 to 3 table spoon: rinsed, drained, and smashed

- garlic 2-3 cloves peeled and smashed and finely chopped

- ginger a few thin slices, shredded

- chili pepper 1/2, thinly sliced

Combine all these ingredients, marinate the pork spareribs for at least 30 minutes (or a few hours in the frig). Steam for about 10 to 15 minutes, test the pork to see if it's fully cooked.

[hzrt8w]

I just use the basics: salt, pepper, msg, sugar.

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I have deleted "MSG" from my cooking vocabulary since college days. May be besides "wok hei", this is what separate home cooking from food in the restaurants. But, many of the sauces and canned ingredients would contain MSG anyway...

[Dejah]

I just use the basics: salt, pepper, msg, sugar.

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I have deleted "MSG" from my cooking vocabulary since college days. May be besides "wok hei", this is what separate home cooking from food in the restaurants. But, many of the sauces and canned ingredients would contain MSG anyway...

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I still use msg in moderate amounts, unless a guest has allergies.

Mudbug, I took pictures and measurements when I made black bean garlic spareribs fopr supper Friday. Just got home from performing at a lily festival, beat...so I will write up the recipe and load the pictures early next week.

[BarbaraY]

I have had black beans dry out in the cupboard so I now keep them in a plastic container in my freezer.

I love ribs with black beans and garlic, shrimp in black bean sauce, and I put them in my beef and broccoli. Use them in several other dishes that don't come to mind right now.

I just wing it. If I think thay would go good in whatever I'm making they get added with the garlic and/or ginger.

Rarely rinse them because the ones I have aren't overly salty. Can't remember the brand.

[mudbug]

Mudbug, I took pictures and measurements when I made black bean garlic spareribs fopr supper Friday. Just got home from performing at a lily festival, beat...so I will write up the recipe and load the pictures early next week.

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Patiently and eagerly awaiting. Details on exactly what types of ribs would be appreciated. I'm fine with chopping bones with a cleaver if necessary.

[Dejah]

.

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Patiently and eagerly awaiting. Details on exactly what types of ribs would be appreciated. I'm fine with chopping bones with a cleaver ifnecessary.

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Mudbug:

I have posted my "see jup pie guat" pictures on a webpage with other pictures.

http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/food2005.html

The page starts with my seafood feast, then chicken balls followed by the 3 pictures of the ribs.

For this pot, I used my cast iron Dutch oven. I bought slabs of side ribs, cut them into bite size pieces myself. There were 3 lbs of ribs. To that, I put in "about" 1 tbsp each of salt, MSG, sugar, 1/2 tbsp of 4 peppercorn spice, 4 cloves of smashed garlic.

The ribs were left to marinate for about a half hour while I used my mini-chopper to mix up 1/4 cup of rinsed fermented black beans with 1/2 cup of warm water. It was beaten up pretty good, paste-like but still retain some bits (hulls?).

After I browned the ribs, I added the black beans, about 5 cups hot water and enough soya sauce just to balance out the saltiness.

The whole thing was brought to a boil, then maintained at a gentle boil for about 30 minutes. Then I thickened it with a slurry of half cornstarch and half flour. Once this cooked to thicken, I put the lid on and stuck it in the oven at 350F for about 45 minutes.

The flavour was wonderful, and the ribs were very tender, and the sauce over rice....

Hope that helps and you will have a go at this recipe!

[annachan]

Nay Ho Ma?

Ohhh boy, here goes: Gnoh Ho. Ho Yeh... lol... was I even close?

Where were you when they were ganging up against Cantonese food?    We need more fellow Cantonese like you!  Cantonese food bland.  Ouch, still hurts!   

Well heck... I missed all the fun. Are you referring to the links in post #8 or can you direct me to the battleground?

Cantonese food isn't bland, it's refined. Beautiful compositions of quality ingredients combined to complement each other in flavor, coler, texture, and density - all in balance. Nothing overpowering, pleasantly allowing the ingredients to speak for themselves in harmony.

Besides... how many people have had truly "authentic" (there's a thread on this word floating around) Cantonese dishes which are not altered for restaurants? Personally, I've always had a tough time eating at Asian restaurants because most of the dinner food has been Westernized and I don't care for it. Is it just me?

When I got older and started eating more "American" food, I could not for the life of me figure out how anyone could eat the meat in anything because it was always so tough, dry, bland - ick! I grew up with meat that was, as we like to say, "soft". (I love when they say that on Iron Chef. I empathize completely.) So soft in fact - that when cooked properly - you can get chicken breast to be fully cooked and yet literally melt in your mouth. Little did I know the standards had been set when I was young...

There is an interesting description of Chinese cuisines and their differences at this blog from someone who has been teaching Asian cookery for years:

http://tigerberries.blogspot.com/2005_01_0...es_archive.html

Hit [control] + [F] on your keyboard to "Find" and type in: January 26

Then hit return. It will take you to the complete entry.

By contrast, the style of Cantonese cookery is one of restraint and sublime simplicity. The cooking of Canton is the regional style most highly regarded by Chinese gastronomes, in part because of the great respect paid to the quality and freshness of the ingredients used in creating a dish. Pure, fresh meat, seafood and vegetables are skillfully cooked and adorned with a minimum of condiments in order to bring out the natural fragrance, color and flavor inherent to the raw ingredients. There is great emphasis placed upon the aesthetic properties of food in Cantonese cuisine, and there is a lot of attention paid to contrasting colors, textures, tastes and scents of each dish. The Cantonese are particularly known for their stir-fried dishes where brilliantly hued crisp vegetables contrast with meltingly tender meat, which are often enhanced with one or two judiciously applied condiments like light-colored soy sauce or fermented black beans.

I thought everybody was at the beach, thinking about margaritas or Coronas than thinking about Joong. Your input has certainly brought a lot of energy to the recent discussions.

You know... I searched before posting. Thought for sure this place would have had an existing thread on this topic by now. Was quite surprised none and also to find the small the quantity of threads in this particular niche. I know people are interested in it... Happy to stir the cornstarch and liven things up...

I probably have heard of Toysan and don't realize it. Then again... you never know. What's the phonetic pronounciation? Thanks for the definition. I certainly don't want to feel unworthy of my heritage due to my ignorance, but if you're not around people who talk about it, or otherwise exposed to the information, you don't know. We're all here to learn.... right?

Where are you living now?  You are not near any China Town?    In Europe?

Europe, eh? Well... not so much. Try: Missouri. ( heh) Does that put things in perspective? Don't get me wrong... some of the most unassuming small towns have a surprising selection of Asian ingredients.. but it's never the same without at least having a decent Chinatown where you can get a good dim sum to fill your tummy and satisfy the taste buds.

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What am I hearing about Cantonese food being bland? I'll be happy to join you two in battle if that comes up again. There's a BIG difference between food that showcase the natural flavor of the ingredients and being bland.

Having a Chinatown around is good, but even in San Francisco, it's not the same as Hong Kong. I so long for the food over there....

[mudbug]

hzrt8w,

Yes, I was meaning the recipe details... Thank you. I look forward to trying both yours and Dejah's variations very much. Seasame oil instead of peanut oil? How much af a difference do you think this makes. I find that I'm personally sensitive to the flavor of seasame oil when it's used to finish off soups and vegetables for example...

Hope that helps and you will have a go at this recipe!

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It certainly steers me in the proper direction! Thank you Dejah... a few random questions:

Peanut oil to sear the ribs I assume? With three pounds I'm guessing maybe divide the ribs in half and sear each half with 2 T peanut oil.

"1/2 tbsp of 4 peppercorn spice"

uh.. is this the regular American green, pink, black and white mix or other like five-spice?

"enough soya sauce just to balance out the saltiness."

Hummm... my guess would be maybe one cup?

I'll probably use a tablespoon rice wine vinegar to draw out the minerals and flavor from the bones and a thai chili pepper for a hint of a kick. As well as wait for the outside temps to come down a bit. Heat index was 108 degrees a couple of days ago.... ugh... so trying to avoid using the oven.

I can taste the dishes already... will require freshly steamed rice, some stir fried choy and a an ice cold Dr. Pepper.

Edited July 25, 2005 by mudbug (log)

[Ben Hong]

Unless you are cooking 10 pounds of spareribs, one cup of soy sauce is wayyy too much. I normally sprinkle it on and taste as I go.

Sesame oil (Asian kind) is never used to fry anything in Cantonese cooking, it is a flavour enhancer or finisher to be added at the end of cooking. A few drops is all you need, as it is a very aromatic oil.

To properly sear or brown the spare ribs, do it in an extremely hot wok half pound at a time with a tbsp of oil each time. Mind, I'm talking about a home sized wok. As each batch is browning, sprinkle in a few drops of dark soy sauce to intensify the flavour and to give the ribs a nice golden brown sheen.

Remember that Cantonese cuisine is all about subtlety. Moderation is the key word, therefore, you don't want any ingredient to overpower the dish.

[mudbug]

Ben Hong,

Thank you for your comments. Keep in mind my questions are in direct response to the recipes in post numbers #34 and #39.

Post #34 specifies 3 teaspoons of sesame oil which I at first glance feel is too much for my taste and why I await hzrt8w's response based on the context of the recipe.

The recipe in post #39 is adding soy sauce to five cups of water, so you can see that in context, the soy sauce would be greatly diluted and, if the recipe directions followed, much of the liquid cooked down in order to create the sauce which you can see in the photo if you follow the link provided.

So you can see why I ask the questions - in order to get some specifics. Don't worry, I'm a firm believer in allowing each ingredient's natural flavor to shine in harmony with the others in balance.

Edited July 26, 2005 by mudbug (log)

[Tepee]

I have posted my "see jup pie guat" pictures on a webpage with other pictures.

http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/food2005.html

The page starts with my seafood feast, then chicken balls followed by the 3 pictures of the ribs.

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Oh my! Sue-On! What a feast! Was it your birthday? Happy Belated Birthday!

[Dejah]

Ben Hong,

The recipe in post #39 is adding soy sauce to five cups of water, so you can see that in context, the soy sauce would be greatly diluted and, if the recipe directions followed, much of the liquid cooked down in order to create the sauce which you can see in the photo if you follow the link provided.

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Good Grief! Charlie Brown! Definitely NOT 1 cup of soya sauce!!! Like Ben, I just sprinkle it in until it looked and tasted right; it probably was about 1/8 cup. I didn't allow the liquid to cook down very much before I thickened it. The soya was really just to enhance the colour.

I used maybe 2 tbsp. canola oil for the browning on the first batch...didn't add any more as there was enough fat on the ribs to do the rest.

I browned them in 4 batches in a very hot pot. The whole process was done in one pot. You don't HAVE to cook it in the oven. You can let it simmer on the stove, or on the BBQ.

[Dejah]

I have posted my "see jup pie guat" pictures on a webpage with other pictures.

http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/food2005.html

The page starts with my seafood feast, then chicken balls followed by the 3 pictures of the ribs.

←

Oh my! Sue-On! What a feast! Was it your birthday? Happy Belated Birthday!

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Tepee: Part of it was my bday back in June. We just collated 3 sessions into one page - less work that way. The seafood feast was for my bday, along with the cake pictures. The ribs and chicken balls were done last week.

Those chicken balls are just like the ones we served in the restaurant...one mouthful of pure meat lightly coated with cracker meal. The sweet 'n' sour sauce was very light. None of that sticky "Xmas sauce- ticket to diabetic coma" for me!

[mudbug]

Good Grief! Charlie Brown! Definitely NOT 1 cup of soya sauce!!!

Thank you. Precisely why I asked. And the peppercorns, just regular black, white, green and pink mix, correct?

[hzrt8w]

.....Seasame oil instead of peanut oil? How much af a difference do you think this makes. I find that I'm personally sensitive to the flavor of seasame oil when it's used to finish off soups and vegetables for example...

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Well, using peanut oil or sesame oil is a personal preference. My father taught me to marinate in peanut oil only (Cantonese home cooking). Somewhere along my life, I picked up using sesame oil to marinate from (I can't remember whom). I like it every since. (And got Dejah and Ben mad at me... )

It is up to you. As Ben said, use sesame oil, if you do, sparingly. Unless you are like me. I use it liberally.

But don't ever try to fry anything using sesame oil. It has a very low boiling point and can easily fume your kitchen. The smell is not all too pleasant. Using it as a final touch (a few drops on top of whatever dish you are having) will enhance the dish. But if you are not fond of it, just skip it.

"1/2 tbsp of 4 peppercorn spice"

uh.. is this the regular American green, pink, black and white mix or other like five-spice?

"enough soya sauce just to balance out the saltiness."

Hummm... my guess would be maybe one cup?

I can taste the dishes already... will require freshly steamed rice, some stir fried choy and a an ice cold Dr. Pepper.

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Green peppercorn is more for European cooking (e.g. the Germen like to use it on steaks.). Chinese typically use white peppercorn (in powder form). Occassionally black peppercorn (e.g. Cantonese style steak with black beans and bell pepper). Not sure what pink peppercorn is. Note that Peppercorn is not considered the "spice" in five-spice.

1 cup of soy sauce is way too much in any cooking... unless you are cooking for the whole village. Typically you use it in teaspoons of measurement. Typically 2 to 3 teaspoon to 1 lb of meat ratio (to marinate) should be enough. You adjust up or down according to your personal preference.

Typically, if you order "see jup pei gwat" [Cantonese] (steamed spareribs with black bean sauce) in Hong Kong, the meat is not browned first. The whole dish is just steamed. So is the family style cooking of this dish. May be in Toisan the meat is browned first in this dish. You can try both styles and see which one you like.

I usually have my meal with a glass of iced boba milk tea! (yeah, right!)

[Dejah]

Good Grief! Charlie Brown! Definitely NOT 1 cup of soya sauce!!!

Thank you. Precisely why I asked. And the peppercorns, just regular black, white, green and pink mix, correct?

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In my Charlie Brown moment, I forgot to answer the peppercorn question.

I use a bottled 4 peppercorn steak spice mix. It has the aforementioned 4 peppercorns plus garlic. I use it on everything! This peppercorn is by choice because I like it so much. Ordinarily, white or black pepper can be used.

I brown the meat because this is an adaptation. The ribs are baked, so the browning step adds more flavour and colour. I started doing this way because we served it in the buffet. I never worried about the tenderness of the side ribs because they are always tender done this way.

I also do the steamed version. It is more traditional, but Po-Po sometimes find it difficult for her teeth.

Edited July 26, 2005 by Dejah (log)

[jokhm]

the method we've been using here for the baby ribs is dumping them in a bowl, adding some ginger, a ridiculous amount of garlic, about 10 dried chili peppers coarsely chopped, a tablespoon or more of black beans that have been densely marinating in chili oil, salt, white pepper, white part of the chinese leeks chopped up, a dash of dark soy sauce and a bit of MSG....

Then steam for a long long time.. Dont' think i'm missing anything, but i'll think about it a bit more.

It's steamed enough once the garlic is practically melted internally.. fantastic. The meat should fall off the bone in your mouth and the large amount of sauce should be kept until the morning when it should then be dumped on top of some cooked rice or wheat noodles in broth with a fried egg inside..

mmm

Now I go wait until my stomach is truly hungry and I get to wish I had actually done this tonight, rather than simply write it!*(&$@

)-- keeping in mind that anyone chinese is likely quite familiar with this... aside from the fiery additions that make this dish without a doubt Hunan style.

Joel

Edited July 27, 2005 by jokhm (log)