Blue Smoke

[Fat Guy]

Suzanne: The fried chicken recipe in use at Blue Smoke was developed recently by John T. Edge (of the Southern Foodways Alliance and author of Southern Belly) and Michael Romano (of Union Square Cafe), I believe as part of the research for one of John T's books. The USHG crew was so happy with the results that they decided to adopt it on the Blue Smoke menu.

[maf]

It is not possible to produce good BBQ in New York, any more than I can hope to get a good pastrami sandwich in Savannah. Once you introduce creamed spinach, mussels and all that other stuff (mashed potatoes should have lumps, by the way), you are no longer eating bar-b-que. If you pass through Baltimore, do you look for crab or dim sum? Good que depends on patience, simplicity,and, to a certain extent. poverty and a slight uncleanliness. New York may have some of these characteristics some of the time, but they are not sought after in restaurants. Finally, there is no wine that goes well with BBQ; beer is OK, but sweet tea is the official beverage.

[macrosan]

It is not possible to produce good BBQ in New York...Good que depends on patience, simplicity,and, to a certain extent. poverty and a slight uncleanliness.

No, what you mean is "traditional", not "good".

Good food is what tastes good, not necessarily what tastes like what you remember from your childhood, or what your great-grandmother used to cook, or what tens of thousands of other people happen to like.

[Fat Guy]

It is not possible to produce good BBQ in New York, any more than I can hope to get a good pastrami sandwich in Savannah.

It's just food. The ingredients, production methods, and even chefs are easily transportable. There is no mysterious force emanating from the Earth that allows barbecue to be good in one place and not in another place -- it's simply a question of implementing a process. The recent experience of The Big Apple Barbecue Block Party conclusively refutes any claim of, "It is not possible to produce good BBQ in New York." Pastrami, it is worth noting, does not come from New York. It comes from the Old World. Yet, it turns out, one doesn't need famine, pogroms, and all that stuff in order to make good pastrami. All one needs is the ingredients and methods. More importantly, pastrami is barbecue.

[NewYorkTexan]

More importantly, pastrami is barbecue.

Nothing like a little hyperbole to start the morning. Pastrami and barbeque are not one and the same. If they were, you could get a nice pulled pork sandwich at Katz’s and Kreuz Market would have to start putting deli mustard on the tables.

[Suzanne F]

NYTexan: I disagree. The principles of making each ARE the same. Season and spice slab of meat, cook meat slowly and lovingly over low heat -- which does that describe? Different cuts, different animals, different spicing, yes. But same philosophy. Except that pastrami makers don't go through a couple of 6-packs during the process.

maf: I disagree with you, too. Poverty? Uncleanliness? These do not good food make. And given the Jewish population of Savannah (and other highly traditional Southern trading towns), I'll be you COULD get decent pastrami if they would just forget that they've been there longer than most of the other folks. Oh, and the mashed potatoes at Blue Smoke/Jazz Standard DO have lumps.

[tommy]

If they were, you could get a nice pulled pork sandwich at Katz’s

but they don't serve pulled pork at Katz's.

[NewYorkTexan]

NYTexan: I disagree.  The principles of making each ARE the same.  Season and spice slab of meat, cook meat slowly and lovingly over low heat -- which does that describe?  Different cuts, different animals, different spicing, yes.  But same philosophy.  Except that pastrami makers don't go through a couple of 6-packs during the process. 

Pastrami and barbeque are definitely not the not the same. The key element in pastrami is the dry rub cure, and it is not limited just to beef as David Burke made famous. I have seen deli counters advertise “unsmoked” pastrami. Barbeque is all about the long and slow cooking process, often involving no seasoning except salt & pepper and the smoke from the heart source.

You can get pastrami that is not smoked, thereby could not be considered barbeque. You can also get barbeque that does not have the distinctive dry rub, thereby excluding it from being considered pastrami. Pastrami and barbeque both make wonderful meals but are two distinct and different products.

pastrami

A highly seasoned beef made from a cut of plate, BRISKET or ROUND. After the fat is trimmed, the meat's surface is rubbed with salt and a seasoning paste that can include garlic, ground peppercorns, cinnamon, red pepper, cloves, allspice and coriander seeds. The meat is dry-cured, smoked and cooked.

barbecue

A method of cooking by which meat, poultry or fish (either whole or in pieces) or other food is covered and slowly cooked in a pit or on a spit, using hot coals or hardwood as a heat source. The food is basted, usually with a highly seasoned sauce, to keep it moist. South Carolina and Texas boast two of the most famous American regional barbecue styles.

(from epicurious.com)

[NewYorkTexan]

If they were, you could get a nice pulled pork sandwich at Katz’s

but they don't serve pulled pork at Katz's.

You are right. How about a nice mock pulled pork sandwich

[Fat Guy]

Pastrami and barbeque are not one and the same.

Show me where I said they were.

I said pastrami is barbecue. I didn't say barbecue is pastrami.

Pastrami is most definitely a type of barbecue. Pastrami fits any reasonable definition of barbecue.

The statement that there's such a thing as unsmoked pastrami is no more valid than the statement that there's such a thing as unsmoked barbecue. Each would be an incorrect use of the term. Both terms are used incorrectly all the time -- for example the Epicurious definition makes the classic Yankee error of defining barbecue first and foremost as a verb -- but that doesn't mean unsmoked barbecue or unsmoked pastrami actually exists.

[NewYorkTexan]

Using the broadest possible definition that barbeque includes any smoked item, then yes I guess you are technically correct. Pastrami is just not usually associated in the barbeque family.

I think what makes pastrami such a unique product is the dry rub curing process, not the smoking. If you ask 100 people to name their favorite type of barbeque, what percentage do you think would list pastrami?

[tommy]

I think what makes pastrami such a unique product is the dry rub curing process, not the smoking.  If you ask 100 people to name their favorite type of barbeque, what percentage do you think would list pastrami?

does fat guy count as 2%?

[Fat Guy]

This discussion doesn't deserve to get buried here. Let's do it in General Topics. I'll start a thread now.

Link: Defining Barbecue

[Andy Lynes]

pastrami is barbecue.

Found at last, the missing 4th chapter of "The Book".

[maf]

I accept the premise that the cuisine is transportable (I've never been to Japan, but I like the Japanese food I've had without really knowing if it's true to its origin). I believe, however, that the lack of a BBQ tradition, and dearth of competition, allows a barbeque restaurant to survive in New York based as much on novelty as the quality of the 'que. It's also probably true that even if I had the best BBQ of my life in Manhattan, I wouldn't admit it.

I cannot accept without comment, however, that pastrami is BBQ. What's next, lox ? I commend you for at least not using the word as a verb, but I'm still hesitant to let even beef or ribs under the tent.

[JeffWilson]

Steven

Thanks for the excellent reply. I appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness.

Jeff

[Stone]

While watching the Rangers stink at home for yet another game, I was wondering where to get a quick bite afte the game was over. I didn't want to stray too far (that means within a 15 block radius) and I didn't want it to be a big deal. And since I was with a "wine friend," the place had to have a reasonable list of wine. As we walked down Seventh Avenue, freezing in our state of semi-disgust I asked, "hey, how about some about barbecue." It was that easy and away we went in a taxi. This was going to be my first time at Blue Smoke. When the place first opened it was so jammed, and I didn't want to wait on line for two hours. So I sort of forgot about it.

The first thing that struck me about Blue Smoke was how large the place was. From reading the reviews and reports, I got the impression that it was a more intimate and discriminating type of BBQ place. How surprised was I when we walked into an upscale version of Virgil's BBQ. Actually, the place is about the same level of decor as a place like the East Coast Grill in Boston. One or two levels above a theme restaurant. And I was also surprised to see that the place was so busy. I would say that when they sat us (9:30pm), there were only 3 or 4 available tables and the bar was packed with people watching the World Series. Before they opened, I remember reading an artcicle where Danny Meyer (one of the owners of Blue Smoke) tasted wines with BBQ to see what matched well. Accordng to Danny, the grand winner was champagne. So I wasn't surprised when the wine list started out with a few selections of good champagne by the glass. I settled in with a glass of Billecourt Salmon Brut Rose and my dining companion ordered a 2000 Huet Vouvray Clos de Bourg..

We flipped the menu over (you know you're dealing with wine people when they read the wine list first,) asked the waitress for a description of the various styles of ribs (there are three different types,) and decided the only sensible thing to do was to order the rib sampler which had all three types. We put our order in along with some sweet potato fries, crispy potato chips and creamed spinach. About 20 minutes later our ribs and sides showed up. When they place it down in front of me, I asked the waitress if there was a certain order they recommend eating them in. She looked at me in a puzzled way and said "what do you mean?" I said you know like when you get a cheese sampler, they recommend you eat them in a certain order. She said, "that's right, they do do that with a cheese plate don't they?" She then went on to say that there is no special way to eat the ribs. Just dig in. Oh well.

I have to say that these ribs were about the meatiest ribs I ever had. Both the St. Louis and the Texas ribs were about as meaty as I've ever seen rins come off a rack. And good quality meat too. The Babybacks were a less impressive piece of meat. Not much different from what I remember getting from Bobby Rubino's back in the day. But the taste of barbecue, where was it? There was none. The meat tasted good but where the hell was the taste of smoked meat? Did they smoke these things? It was the plainest and blandest barbecue I had ever tasted. What tasted great in the first few bites melted into eating the equivelent of grilled ribs that weren't even basted in a good BBQ sauce. The sides fare no better. They didn't exactly possess lots of flavor. Our conversation, which was sort of perky because we were excited to eat Q, fell to a hush while we both knew that we were in bland land. And while my glass of champagne was good on its own, we were both trying to figure out what made it go well with champagne?

Chalk another one off the list. Why places like this are popular beats me. Haven't the people ever tasted real barbecue before?

This sums up my experience last night perfectly. Incredibly meaty ribs, desperately in need of more flavor. Overly pulled pork, in need of more flavor. Light, crispy hushpuppies, in need of more flavor. And obscene basket of cheese fries, in need of more flavor. (Was that Velveeta?) Large room. Good sized portions. (The ribs were too . . . uniform. They looked like they came out of a box.) Nice staff. $100 before tip for three people, 4 drinks and way too much food.

This place reminded me of Red, Hot & Blue in Arlington, VA.

A few more thoughts. I was surprised that there were no combo platters. I would have liked to try the ribs/pork/brisket.

The waiter mentioned that the ribs were smoked with sauce. For the KC style, he said that they kept putting sauce on during the smoke process. This seems odd. A thick sauce will only inhibit the smoke from getting into the meat. And any sugar in the sauce will risk burning.

The waiter made a big deal about my friend having a choice between slaw and beans. She chose the slaw. It was a tiny ramekin. Odd, given the importance the waiter attached to the choice, I expected it would be a more substantial portion. Slaw's almost free. Spoon it on. The beans were good -- not at all mushy.

And we all loved seeing deviled eggs on the menu, but none of us ordered them.

Edited February 14, 2004 by Stone (log)

[Felonius]

I have to say that these ribs were about the meatiest ribs I ever had. Both the St. Louis and the Texas ribs were about as meaty as I've ever seen rins come off a rack. And good quality meat too. The Babybacks were a less impressive piece of meat. Not much different from what I remember getting from Bobby Rubino's back in the day. But the taste of barbecue, where was it? There was none. The meat tasted good but where the hell was the taste of smoked meat? Did they smoke these things? It was the plainest and blandest barbecue I had ever tasted. What tasted great in the first few bites melted into eating the equivelent of grilled ribs that weren't even basted in a good BBQ sauce. The sides fare no better. They didn't exactly possess lots of flavor. Our conversation, which was sort of perky because we were excited to eat Q, fell to a hush while we both knew that we were in bland land.

Chalk another one off the list. Why places like this are popular beats me. Haven't the people ever tasted real barbecue before?

This sums up my experience last night perfectly. Incredibly meaty ribs, desperately in need of more flavor. Overly pulled pork, in need of more flavor.

[tommy]

Why places like this are popular beats me. Haven't

probably not.

Edited February 14, 2004 by tommy (log)

[jgould]

I have to say that these ribs were about the meatiest ribs I ever had. Both the St. Louis and the Texas ribs were about as meaty as I've ever seen rins come off a rack. And good quality meat too. The Babybacks were a less impressive piece of meat. Not much different from what I remember getting from Bobby Rubino's back in the day. But the taste of barbecue, where was it? There was none. The meat tasted good but where the hell was the taste of smoked meat? Did they smoke these things? It was the plainest and blandest barbecue I had ever tasted. What tasted great in the first few bites melted into eating the equivelent of grilled ribs that weren't even basted in a good BBQ sauce. The sides fare no better. They didn't exactly possess lots of flavor. Our conversation, which was sort of perky because we were excited to eat Q, fell to a hush while we both knew that we were in bland land.

Chalk another one off the list. Why places like this are popular beats me. Haven't the people ever tasted real barbecue before?

This sums up my experience last night perfectly. Incredibly meaty ribs, desperately in need of more flavor. Overly pulled pork, in need of more flavor.

Ditto. Have been three times, and just can't get excited about the ribs here. Being a native Southerner with a deeply ingrained pork BBQ addiction, I was thrilled when I heard Blue Smoke had arrived on the NYC scene. The ribs just don't have the intensity of flavor that make we want to order that second slab. I wonder why this is? Surely these people have put a lot of time and money into creating such a high-end temple to BBQ. What's missing in their equation?

[Mister_Cutlets]

I think it just comes down to pleasing your customer base. The pork ribs at BS are losers, all right; but I'm not sure if the clientele would like a rugged pink ring or appreciate the token resiliency required by bbq purists. The best thing there in bbq terms is probably the texas rib, which is a close facimile (minus the butcher paper) of beef ribs in central texas. Blue Smoke has finally got the smoking right, thanks to a hugely expensive renovation of their chimney system, but the way that they smoke has to be responsive in some way to the customers. So the pork ribs slide off the bone as if par-boiled, and of the "Kansas City ribs" the less said the better. But the place is packed, so Meyers has to keep the kitchen going as is. It's the same reason why Bob Pearson sells so many dry brisket sandwiches: the UES stroller ladies who eat there complain if they see fat. But luckily, in the latter case, you can order a second-cut brisket sandwich and get the bona fide item. That option is only available at Blue Smoke for those items which New Yorkers haven't expressed a preference for corrupted versions.

Josh

[bilrus]

And we all loved seeing deviled eggs on the menu, but none of us ordered them.

The deviled eggs are pretty good but a little plain. It might fall into the same litany you listed in your post.

I liked them, but I liked most of the rest of the food I had there a little more than you do too.

Edited February 16, 2004 by bilrus (log)

[jgould]

I think it just comes down to pleasing your customer base. The pork ribs at BS are losers, all right; but I'm not sure if the clientele would like a rugged pink ring or appreciate the token resiliency required by bbq purists. The best thing there in bbq terms is probably the texas rib, which is a close facimile (minus the butcher paper) of beef ribs in central texas. Blue Smoke has finally got the smoking right, thanks to a hugely expensive renovation of their chimney system, but the way that they smoke has to be responsive in some way to the customers. So the pork ribs slide off the bone as if par-boiled, and of the "Kansas City ribs" the less said the better. But the place is packed, so Meyers has to keep the kitchen going as is. It's the same reason why Bob Pearson sells so many dry brisket sandwiches: the UES stroller ladies who eat there complain if they see fat. But luckily, in the latter case, you can order a second-cut brisket sandwich and get the bona fide item. That option is only available at Blue Smoke for those items which New Yorkers haven't expressed a preference for corrupted versions.

Josh

1 question: wanted to read your site, but how do u mute ????

[jgould]

UPDATE:

passed blue smoke last nite @ 7:45, packed & 3 deep @the bar.

re-passed (sic) @ 10, still packed, with every seat @the bar taken!!!

i don't get it. do new yorkers/tourists not know good bbq, or are they so desperate for ANY bbq, they will put up with anything??????????????

& finally, re:mister_cutlets: how do one turn off the accompanying noise on your website??????????????????????

[Stone]

Another mediocre meal at Blue Smoke. The food here is so trimmed, polished and proper, it looks like the fake plastic stuff used in add campaigns.

I started with the fried green tomatos. Three sliced in a corn-meal batter. Not very big, not much flavor. Served with dollops of a red/chili sauce that, again, needed more oomph.

My friend ordered a half-slab of St. Louis style ribs. She was served about 7 ribs, in a manicured "slab". The edges were even all around, the surface was even, the color was even. It sat, small and lonely, in the middle of a clean white plate. The whole thing was about 6-7 inches (and remember, guys round up). I think it was $14.95 -- way overpriced for the amount of food. As for flavor, will give it a thumbs up. Much smokier than the ribs I had back in February. But they were smaller, and not nearly as meaty.

I had the fried chicken. I wish I'd gone to Popeyes. It didn't have much of a batter/crust. I guess this was a regional thing. It seemed to have been dipped in cornmeal and then fried. The pieces were an ok size, but certainly not plump. The breast was moist. Not a great amount of flavor. On the side was a decent portion of mashed, with so-so gravy poured into a perfectly shaped well. The biscuit was the high-point.

We had a side of mac & cheese that was over-poweringly rich. Tasted like they used an extra packet of Kraft cheese powder.

The place was packed.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Stone (log)