Blue Smoke

[Fat Guy]

Whether or not Meyer's places are bland, watered-down, or white-breaded, and what those terms mean, are probably candidates for their own thread. Me, I don't think I see it in those terms.

[Suzanne F]

Why places like this are popular beats me. Haven't the people ever tasted real barbecue before?

In two words, probably not.

I'm not so sure.

Yvonne -- without wishing to sound "exclusionary" (as in eGulleteers v. the rest of the world), I still maintain that the majority of people who eat at BS do not come from regions where real Q is available, and/or have never made the trek to Pearson's, and/or ONLY know from Hog Pit (which, forgive me, is meat cooked in spicy sauce; it is NOT smoke-cooked).

From your list, FatGuy, I wonder if "state-of-the-art ventilation" is the problem. Maybe a "real" BBQ has to be smokey and unventilated ?

Macrosan -- If so, then there is no hope for BS: have a look at NYC Department of Buildings, Health Department, and Fire Department regulations, among others. And remember the trouble that Pearson's has had even with its industrially-zoned neighbors. I'd bet that you and Robert are right about the people minding the pit being the hangup. It is not true that people of one ethnic group cannot learn to cook the foods of another; but it takes a long time and lots of supervision by someone who DOES know. As far as I can figure, the cooks' training at BS is second- or third-hand: the real pitmaster "taught" the chef and his next-in-line, and they taught the staff. (Training in restaurants is very similar to a game of "Telephone;" by the time the nth cook has been "trained," what s/he does is almost nothing like the original, intended method.)

In fact, in my Rabbi's sermon on shabbas he mentioned it in the same sentence as ham. So when I went to BS... But this went slightly beyond the pale.

Yes, Steve, thanks for a good laugh this morning. Block that metaphor!! And I also disagree that DM's places "water down" their themes; how can one water down a hamburger or chunk of tuna (USC)? Tabla is not watered-down Indian, so much as re-invented.

Steve, do you hold the same opinion of all Meyer restaurants, that they are "watered down"? Does this include Craft?

Robert, sorry to nit-pick, but isn't Craft Tom Collicchio without Danny Meyer?

One last thing: this is in the 9/23/02 issue of Nation's Restaurant News:

Blue Smoke ribs becomes 'last supper' in baseball talks

New York -- Did the Union Square Hospitality Group serve the ribs that saved Major League Baseball?

This may be a bold claim, but this much is not in dispute: On the night before a baseball strike was averted, 20 negotiators from both sides dined on barbecued ribs and other items from Blue Smoke, the barbecue restaurant and jazz club opened by Danny Meyer's restaurant group.

"Tim Brosnan, who is vice president of business relations for Major League Baseball, is a big fan of Blue Smoke and has eaten here several times," said Meyer's spokeswoman, Jennie Zinman.  "He called Thursday night [Aug. 29] and said that talks were going to go on through the night, and they needed food."

[Ron Johnson]

I think people generally, if they don't eat a lot of BBQ, have an incorrect impression of what it should taste like. The idea of it tasting of smoke is not entirely correct. The smoke should only add a component of flavor to the meat, much like an oak barrel does to wine when done properly. In Memphis, the top item is pork shoulder. This is a big piece of meat that can be tough and stringy. However, the purpose of a low heat, smokey fire, is not just to impart a smoke flavor but also to cook the meat in such a way as to maximize its tenderness and flavor. Think dry braising. A perfectly cooked pork shoulder should not be inundated with a smokey flavor, but should be a complex balance of richness, sweetness, and a savory aspect that comes from the crust created by the rub and the smoke ring. It is a type of harmony. The only purpose for the sauce, if any, is to add the element of acidity to balance the rich/sweet of the pork meat. For me this is accomplished with a bite of vinegar slaw.

Good pork BBQ should not have the overwhelming smokiness of something that has been cold-smoked like trout. That is simply not the flavor of good BBQ.

It is also a myth that different types of wood produce markedly different types of flavor. Some say any differences are so subtle as too be almost indistinguishable others say that it makes no difference at all. The only issue with wood is that you must use hardwood, so that the smoke does not contain burning pitch (such as pine would have) and that it burns at a steady and even temperature. Whether it is oak, hickory, apple, mesquite, persimmon, cherry, or maple, the flavor imparted to the meat by the wood will be the same. Mesquite is a little different because it does tend to burn a little hotter than other hardwoods, but it has no impact on flavor.

[Jinmyo]

A more goyische, not from New York hot dog with toppings worthy of a farmer from Nebraska you have never seen this side of the Hudson. In fact, in my Rabbi's sermon on shabbas he mentioned it in the same sentence as ham.

[Fat Guy]

Ron, I'm with you on the first point. It's like with braising. People think good braising means the meat is "falling off the bone" and "fork tender." In fact that mostly indicates overcooking. Properly braised meat should maintain some of its texture. With barbecue, it's also about balance. You don't want the rib meat separating from the bones on its own, and you don't want the meat flavor masked by the smoke. But Plotnicki seems to be reporting zero smoke. That would be bad.

I don't know about this all-woods-taste-the-same business. My intuition tells me otherwise, and certainly all the barbecue literature I've read places an emphasis on choice of wood. But as I have not conducted controlled-environment taste tests I can't really say.

[Ron Johnson]

I don't know about this all-woods-taste-the-same business. My intuition tells me otherwise, and certainly all the barbecue literature I've read places an emphasis on choice of wood. But as I have not conducted controlled-environment taste tests I can't really say.

Yeah, I know that seems to be going out on a limb , but it is true. Although it seems counter-intuitive, hardwoods produce smoke that smells so similar that most humans would not be able to say, "oh so you decided to go with persimmon today instead of apple," just by smelling the fire. Then, when you further obfuscate the aroma by only tasting whatever aspect of it is in the meat, it becomes impossible.

The first time I cooked on a team in the Memphis in May BBQ Contest, I was trying to act like I knew something. I announced that I preferred the taste of applewood smoke in my pork shoulder over hickory or others. The guys on the team laughed their asses off. When they finished rolling on the ground, they and others, to whom they related my statement, explained to me how there is no discernible difference in the flavor of the meat based on what type of hardwood was used. People use what is available in their area and what burns in a manner they like best or find most predictable.

I just can't imagine a blind tasting of pieces of pork shoulder where tasters could identify the type of wood used.

Now in wine the type of wood makes a difference because it does impart some characteristics which are more or less desirable. However, that is an example of the wood staying in contact with an acidic liquid that leaches the flavor out over a period of 18 months or more.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not saying I can tell the difference between hickory and oak, but I sure do associate a very specific flavor with mesquite. Are you saying that's simply a temperature issue?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I can tell the difference between the woods, but not really. I don't have smoked meats on a regular enough basis to be served a plate of Q and say "oak!" But I bet if ribs which were smoked using different types of woods were places side by side, I would be able to tell which is which. This ability comes from using wood chips on a regular basis on my Weber grill. Hickory in particular has a unique smell that is sort of maple syrupish. Applewood and Cherrywood smell sweet. Mesquite is fairly unique and is coarse, and oak hardly flavors the food. Oak is more for grilling over oak logs (think Hitching Post.) As for BS, I didn't say the food wasn't smoked at all. It was. But it was about 20% short for my taste and knowledge of Q.

[=Mark]

There is no real mystique to BBQ, just patience and a basic understanding of the process as it relates to the item being cooked. The first major accomplishment is not to overdo the smoke (Well, actually the first accomplishment is fire control, but we'll stick to basics as if even electric or gas ignited pits are included... ), Many folks want to see clouds of wafting white smoke, but this will result in bitter creosote deposits. You want a nearly invisible bluish tinged whisp of smoke from a clean burning piece of wood. (Hence the term "blue smoke")

Next you want to maintain a steady temp for the proper time, generally about 225f to 250f. Avoid opening the pit to "check" the process as you will lose heat.

Finally, you want to be able to determine when the meat is done. Again, there is no mystique, but this is the area that takes the most practice and attention. For the most part FG is right in stating that the popular "falling off the bone" statement means to most BBQ enthusiasts that the meat is overcooked. This applies to ribs, brisket, poultry and most other meats. The main exception is the big hunks 'O pork used to make pulled pork. They are usually the hams, shoulders and picnics, but the best overall in terms of lean, fat and connective tissue seems to be the bone in pork butt, or Boston Butt.

As it is slow cooked the fat renders out and the collagen breaks down into gelatin, both of which contribute to self basting and a tender, fall apart product. One can determine when a butt is done by inserting a fork and twisting it.

Once it is done and allowed to rest for a half hour to 45 min. have at it with gloves or a couple forks, shredding it and removing any remaining bits of bone, fat or gristle.

As far as woods, it is true that there are generally not as many subtle variations as often claimed, but there is a spectrum of intensities as to the strenth of the smoke produced. This can affect the maximum times that some woods can be used before the food becomed unpleasantly oversmoked.

Maples, citrus woods and grapevine produce a lighter smoke, Fruit woods like cherry, apple and pear are middle of the road, and nut woods like hickory and pecan have heavier flavors. Note that all these woods can have the intensity of the smoke reduced as the proportion of burning coal to unburned wood increases. By the time the wood is completely turned into coals, the amount of time spent on the pit can be exceedingly long as is required for very large or tough pieces.

This is where Mesquite wood appears. It is generally so strong that it cannot be used effectively unless completely burned down to coals. This is how the 6 to 14 hour mesquite smoked brisket is achieved.

Once these factors are understood, it does not take more than 2 or 3 sessions before the amateur BBQer is producing BBQ better than 95% of the commercial joints out there. Notice I have not even talked about sauces or rubs. To start out it is best to avoid either until you get a handle on smoking the meat itself.

[Suzanne F]

Wow, thank you for that treatise. I hope someday we can have a bi-coastal Q-off between you and Col. Klink -- and whoever else is as knowledeable about this topic. My mouth waters at the thought.

[Fat Guy]

Mark, one thing I'd add is that many barbecue places -- even in most of barbecue country -- are cooking with a combination of gas and wood. When wood is no longer the heat source but is simply the smoke source, there is a greater degree of control over the kinds of variables you've discussed.

[=Mark]

Mark, one thing I'd add is that many barbecue places -- even in most of barbecue country -- are cooking with a combination of gas and wood. When wood is no longer the heat source but is simply the smoke source, there is a greater degree of control over the kinds of variables you've discussed.

Agreed. That's why I chose not to go into fire control in any detail. Add to that the fact that building codes in many cities prohibit more than a proscribed amount of woodsmoke from being discharged into the air. Is making it difficult for a lot of start up joints to find new venues.

[ahr]

This is a paste of a quick note I sent to a friend after dining at Blue Smoke a few Thursdays ago:

Blue Smoke had no dinner reservations available in the 6:00-7:00 p.m. timeframe, but the reservationist suggested that we just march in, as they pre-book only half the tables. We were seated immediately at about 6:30 in a booth in the packed, noisy bar area to a meal better than I had been led to fear. Briefly: Malty house draft; frybread that would have been better with the traditional honey than the house’s flavored butter and jalapeno marmalade (yet a second dish this week, and I now forget the first, that was almost, but not quite, as good as a freshly made street-fair zeppole); very good St. Louis-style pork ribs, meaty and juicy; less meaty, less interesting baby backs; dry, spare (in the austere, fleshless sense), overly black-peppered beef ribs; dry, overly black-peppery sausage; good shredded pork in a mild sauce; and a slightly dry but otherwise good chicken breast. The barbecued meats were part of the two samplers we ordered, a “Rib Sampler” and a “Rhapsody in ‘Cue”; to my surprise, the latter omitted beef brisket, though it did include more of those nice pork ribs. None of the meats was intensely smoky, but, as I said, the St. Louis ribs were fine indeed, contrary to earlier reports I’d read. I liked our sides of cornbread (which my friend found insufficiently sweet, but keep in mind that he guzzled diet Coke with maraschino cherries through the meal) and creamed spinach; some slightly spicy cole slaw was included with the samplers. The “magic dust” and other condiments went unsampled. Service was prompt and friendly, though I realized later that we received no house bread basket, if there was one to receive, perhaps because we ordered the cornbread.

But for the warnings that Blue Smoke is notoriously inconsistent, I’d happily return for a full rack of the St. Louis ribs, which would, I suspect, provide more meat than either of the samplers for about the same price.

[Bux]

I know only what I may have read about 'que. I would not have gone to Blue Smoke had I not been dragged there by a French chef who discovered barbeque while catering an event in, I believe it was, Tennessee. I assured him he would be disappointed and suggested he wait at least a few months to let the memory of the real stuff fade. I had the distinct impression he was disappointed nonetheless. Still it wasn't a bad evening and one can do worse if you're not adamant about what it has to be.

We had the fry bread. Deep-fat fried carbs. What's not to like? The pulled pork was very good, but I'm making no claim on anything like authentically delicious. The pork ribs--I believe the St. Louis ribs--were almost as enjoyable. The Texas Style beef ribs?

dry, spare (in the austere, fleshless sense), overly black-peppered beef ribs

That's charitable, or ahr's were juicier, meatier and less black than ours. We pooled our orders and shared all the food. The beef ribs went unfinished. the cole slaw that came with the meat orders was gobbled up quickly. We probably should've ordered a side. The fries were outstanding. I only wish I had fries like that when we were in France. Better potatoes in France, but these fries were well done, crisp and dry like fires should be. I could eat fries and beer all night. I might order bottled beer next time. I thought the drafts were universally a little flat, but the house brand was pretty good. I'm not a connoiseur of collard greens, though I like lots of bitter greens. I found these too bitter and watery. I remain convinced the French, Spanish and Italians know all about cooking greens and the Americans know nothing.

It does make you feel you've left New York, or at least Manhattan, the moment you step through the door. Maybe that affected my senses, but it seemed almost everyone was at home and I wondered why they came to NY and were eating what they could probably get better back home. Of course the younger ones could have been recently displaced homesick college graduates newly arrived in NYC. Who knows if they could tell good barbeque from bad after a diet of dorm food, Burger King and KFC.

On the surface, it doesn't remind you of a Danny Meyer restaurant and yes the servers don't have that stamp of professional Meyer organization training. Then of course you realize, he really knows what he's doing at times. I think these people are trained to give the impression this is a temporary job just for atmosphere.

[stefanyb]

On the surface, it doesn't remind you of a Danny Meyer restaurant and yes the servers don't have that stamp of professional Meyer organization training. Then of course you realize, he realy knows what he's doing at times. I think these people are trained to give the impression this is a temporary job just for atmosphere.

That was my strongest impression. This is a Danny Meyer joint? Where are the obsequious servers? Where's the saccharine meeters and greeters? And what? the busboys are confused? Great!

The food was okay- I agree with you about the beef ribs. The fatty brisket (is there any other kind?) was juicey and smokey and the mashed potatoes were heaven. Mac and cheese was pedestrian but, you know, we had (party of six in booth) a wonderful evening. Made me feel like a kid again.

[Suzanne F]

Bringing this one back partly because of the Danny Meyer Q & A, and because I want to report on my recent experiences.

We have started going to Jazz Standard, the club underneath Blue Smoke. (Heard Winard Harper in December, and Randy Weston with Regina Carter last night; next weekend, Joanne Brackeen ) While it is not necessary to order any food or drink, we have dinner since we go to the 7:30 shows. The food comes from Blue Smoke, naturally, although the menu is much shorter and includes some different items. We haven't checked whether the full wine list is available.

In these 2 visits, we've had: chipotle-glazed bbq chicken wings (w/Maytag blue cheese dip); black-pepper-coated NY Strip steak (also w/blue cheese) with "home fries;" 1/2-rack of the St. Louis-cut ribs, with pickles and cole slaw; pulled-pork sandwich (also with pickles and cole slaw); collards; and cheddar cheese wafers. We enjoyed all of it -- but it all could have been better. Only the cheese wafers were sufficiently flavored; everything else was so timidly spiced. Meats were tender and juicy, but very mildly spiced or smoked. The "pulled pork" was chopped so fine as to be mushy. The steak was excellent meat, trimmed to make eating in the dark easy, and cooked exactly as requested -- but while the pepper was visible, its bite had gone missing. Cole slaw needed more vinegar to contrast the light sweetness and complement the vegetables. The home fries were perfectly (deep?) fried slices of (already baked?) potatoes -- but a sprinkle of salt would have been nice. The collards, cooked to an unusually high degree of softness, needed more bacon to be worthy of having that ingredient listed.

The cheese wafers, btw, were great: the simple grated cheddar/butter/flour/cayenne kind, made with a really sharp cheese and just enough cayenne. They melted in the mouth upon being bitten. Perfect bar food!

So, overall, we wish the kitchen would be bolder in spicing, seasoning, and flavoring. And I wish the potato salad were available downstairs. We'll definitely keep tasting, as long as Jazz Standard has such good acts at such a reasonable cover (generally $25 pp).

[helenas]

Thanks to Suzanne and FG, we're going to JazzStandard this weekend; i love Regina Carter. The reservation is pretty convenient as you can do it online through opentable.com.

And they will have Cassandra Wilson in mid-February!

[Fat Guy]

The "pulled pork" was chopped so fine as to be mushy.

This was my one serious complaint on a recent visit. It's not pulled. It's that North Carolina cat-food-style chopped pork. I didn't notice any of the mildness issues, though. I was actually surprised at just how much of a pepper blast the chipotle chicken wings delivered.

[Suzanne F]

Helena: one word of warning: twice in a row my OpenTable reservation didn't quite make it through to JS. The JS manager said they've been having connectivity problems. So you might do better to reserve by phone. Unless you want the points, in which case you may have to tell OT that you did, in fact, go. OT has been very nice about it for me.

FG: maybe we just have a higher threshhold for chipotle, and so would have liked more. The pulled pork, though -- YES, or rather NO! They should have offered a vinegar/black pepper sauce with it, the way it was chopped.

[ahr]

A quick update from a twice-shy skeptic who, more than once burnt (as it were) by dessicated ribs and haphazard service, was persuaded to try Blue Smoke again today by Mr. Meyer’s Q&A: no complaints this time, none at all.

[Jaymes]

...they've been having connectivity problems...

I've been having some of them my own self.

[weinoo]

After DM's Q&A, I felt compelled to try Blue Smoke again (my first 2 visits after opening left me wanting more) with my wife last night. No reservations, Saturday night and we arrived at 8:15 - we were told to check back with the host at 9 P.M. (they don't seek you out in the bar), and were promptly seated in the front area at that time (boy, was it cold up there!).

But the food has come a long way - the caesar salad is well made and is able to be eaten with the fingers, which I like. The fried oysters over greens with buttermilk dressing were also good. We shared a "Rhapsody in Cue" platter (st. louis ribs, chopped pork, hot links, and chicken). It was very good, smoke ring quite apparent...delicious, smoky flavor, tender, etc....I felt the weakest link was the chopped pork - I'm not a big fan of the chopped style, preferring pulled. Our sides were the (tonight's) exemplary potato chips as well as collard greens. For dessert, apple fritters, which were pretty damn good as well. So, I think the food has come a long way since the opening, certainly something that happens in a DM establishment.

A couple of minor complaints - the host sure seemed stressed out for a Danny trained guy! Albeit, it was busy, but take a valium or something!

Our server tried to push some roquefort dip on us along with the potato chips, even saying that the chips were "200 x better" with the dip - come on. I said that if they really thought the potato chips were that much better with the dip, then the dip should come with the chips automatically.

Also, she said she didn't think that sharing the "rhapsody" platter was going to be enough food for both of us - what's on that platter, like 3000 calories worth of protein and fat?

Anyway, I thought some of this was strange for a Meyer establishment - however, maybe the fact that it was a Saturday night and they expect a lot of daters led them to believe that they could push some more $ onto our bill. After all, we did end up spending like $120 when all is taken into acount. Any comment on this?

[Fat Guy]

I'm not a big fan of the chopped style, preferring pulled.

And regardless of stylistic preference, I think if a restaurant is going to serve chopped the menu shouldn't call it pulled -- and vice-versa.

The only excuse for chopped pork is Eastern North Carolina style barbecue, which is to say whole hog barbecue. In that situation, where the goal is to mix together tastes from different parts of the hog, chopping facilitates the desired result. I think they chop it too fine overall in Eastern North Carolina, but I understand why they chop it. But there's no question in my mind that if you're just serving the shoulder you get much better results by pulling or at least using a very, very rough chop. Otherwise I think all that time and effort spent in creating great, smoky, tender barbecue is wasted as the end product is pulverized.

Our server tried to push some roquefort dip on us along with the potato chips, even saying that the chips were "200 x better" with the dip - come on. I said that if they really thought the potato chips were that much better with the dip, then the dip should come with the chips automatically.

If you bundle the chips and dip together you have to increase the price of the overall package. This is going to annoy people who want a choice, but of course it will be seen as a good thing by those who always order the two items together anyway because the bundled price will likely represent a savings. I think there's a sense in which restaurantgoers don't like to pay for sauces and dips -- it's one of those psychological hurdles that consumers can't get over, like securing reservations with a credit-card deposit. There's no sense or lack thereof, it's just the way people's dining expectations have evolved. I don't begrudge Blue Smoke this particular split of chip and dip. The restaurant has clearly chosen to follow an a la carte system where vegetables and the like are all sold as sides. That's one way to do it.

As for the upselling proposition in general, I have no problem with tasteful upselling. Sometimes it's actually a win-win situation. And as long as I'm not made to feel pressured or put upon, I have no problem with a server going through a low-key, management-mandated (or not) sales pitch -- it's how restaurants do business. I think it just becomes more noticeable as you get lower down in the pecking order of servers. When you consider that Blue Smoke's per-cover average is probably somewhere in the same category as Virgil's, it puts it in a bit more perspective. If you try to hold Blue Smoke up to the standard of Gramercy Tavern (where waiters are probably making double or triple the tip income), it's not going to compare as favorably.

[Bux]

As a New Yorker with no special paranoia, I become extrememly defensive when I suspect upselling in a restaurant. I'll even go so far as to reject suggestions just to demonstrate the strength of my character and will power to the staff member. Of course I am exaggerating. In France however, my reaction is quite the opposite. Over the years of my visits there, I have come to believe the average restaurant has my best interests at heart and offers the best it has out of pride not avarice. There are clip joints in France and they exist even far from the tourist centers in Paris, but there's a difference in the way restaurants have traditionally functioned in France and the US and the role chefs have played in society. My attitude in the US is changing, both because dining in France has opened my mind and because of a new breed of American chefs and restaurants.

As for Danny Meyer, whatever I may feel about any one particular restaurant of his in terms of how it pleases me, I'm quite convinced he offers reasonable value and that one of his main goals is a satisfied customer.

(ahr Posted on Jan 18 2003, 11:09 PM) A quick update from a twice-shy skeptic who, more than once burnt (as it were) by dessicated ribs and haphazard service, was persuaded to try Blue Smoke again today by Mr. Meyer?s Q&A: no complaints this time, none at all.

I know that although he found it quite time consuming, Danny also found the Q&A very rewarding. I hope he's still lurking in this thread.

[Fat Guy]

As a New Yorker with no special paranoia, I become extrememly defensive when I suspect upselling in a restaurant.

We may need a thread on upselling in order to hash this out. As far as I'm concerned there is no value-judgment attached to the term. After all, any offer of product -- beyond a food-only prix-fixe menu with no supplements -- constitutes upselling. An offer of espresso, wine, bottled water, or, in a non-prix-fixe restaurant, appetizers or desserts: upselling. Whether it serves the customer's interests or not, occurs in France or the US, or is done with or without finesse: upselling. So I think the only real debate is about how the upselling is carried out.