Joe's Shanghai

[cabrales]

We also had soup dumplings at Joe’s Shanghai for lunch…good and fun . . . .

In sum, decor and the physical environment are a plus when they are appealing, but largely insignificant relative to cuisine considerations.  . . .  An extreme example of my emphasis on cuisine is Joe Shanghai, Manhattan Chinatown. I recently enjoyed Shanghainese soup dumplings with crabmeat there during lunch-hour. I had to sit at a communal round table. Nonetheless, I was happy to take in the soup dumplings. I could have chosen the West 56th branch of Joe Shanghai, which has better decor and service, but thought nothing of the physical environment.  

I really like Joe Shanghai's soup dumplings with crabmeat and pork. What are members' views on such dumplings, and on the differences in quality (if any) between the Manhattan Chinatown and West 56th locations?   Note that, to the best of my recollection, the same price per order buys 8 dumplings in Chinatown and 6 on the Upper West Side.

I find that Joe Shanghai's other dishes are not as delicious (except for the meat-only soup dumplings). I have tried the tofu (medium soft) dish with the same crabmeat as the dumplings at the West 56th location, and found it average. I have heard one recommendation of the braised pork meatball dish ("Lion's Head" -- that's not necessarily its name on the menu) at the restaurant.

[vengroff]

Last time I went to the Joe's Shanghai in Chinatown, we had some nice razor clams with black bean sauce.  The clams were grilled just enough to open them, but leave them tender and slightly smokey tasting.  Of course we also had soup dumplings.

I like the big communal tables.    It's usually fun to see the different approaches to ordering and eating the soup dumplings.

[Bux]

We were regular diner's a Joe's in Chinatown, but a couple of disappointing meals in a row some time ago have left us unwilling to wait on line without some reassurance of improvement. Maybe it was the best Shanghai restaurant in Manhattan or maybe it was the first.

My problem with the buns at our last visits, was that the dough had almost melted away at the bottom of the buns and that there was no way to pick up the buns without their falling apart. The last soup buns we've had have been at Shanghai cuisine. There I found the tops of the buns to be thick, heavy and underdone.

Years ago we ate so frequently and so well in Chinatown, yet today I find we are far less thrilled or satisfied with the food. I'm not sure why. Dim Sum GoGo both for dim sum and for dinner has been the best food for us, but even they have a little inconsistent. The last time I was in DSGG, I noticed that Goody's next door had a special on the buns.

[cabrales]

there was no way to pick up the buns without their falling apart.

Bux -- I assume your technique is (1) use the tongs to gently lift the targeted soup dumpling off the cabbage leaves on which it is resting, (2) move it using the tongs so it is positioned very close to, but still slightly above, your plastic Chinese soup spoon (which is itself not sitting on anything), and (3) a careful drop onto the spoon.  

I have found the ginger shreds in the vinegar a bit unrefined. However, I still like the JS soup dumplings a lot.

[Jim Dixon]

I was a soup dumpling virgin until our recent visit to NYC. Our friend had sent us to Joe's Shanghai and had told us to order the "buns," but had forgotten to clue us in on the eating technique. Luckily, we sat at a large table and I was able to watch someone else eat one first.

I also had a bowl of Shanghai soup...thick, ropey noodles in a brown stock with a few bits of sliced pork and pickled cabbage...it was very good.

Jim

[Howie]

I'm a huge fan of Joe Shanghai's in Chinatown, both of their soup dumplings (xiao long bao) and dishes.

cabrales, to answer your initial question, i think there is a big difference in quality between the Midtown and Chinatown locations. The Midtown soup dumplings tend to have a bit of a thicker wrapper and the filling seems a bit dried out to me. The wrappers in Chinatown are a bit finer but the soup dumpling itself seems ready to burst with the combined flavors of crabmeat, pork, and oil. I love them!

As far as the dishes go, my favorites there include the razor calms with black bean sauce and jalapenos (as mentioned before), the sauteed pea shoots, and the fresh savory tofu with crabmeat sauce.

The sauteed pea shoots are especially good here because they use the small, almost clover-like ones that are very difficult to find in Chinatown and flash-cook them with some oil and garlic in an extremely hot wok. The tofu with crabmeat is amazing because the pieces of tofu are so delicate that it's hard not to break on the way to the plate. But at the same time, they take on a good amount of flavor from the crabmeat sauce. A little pricey in comparison to the rest of the menu (I believe it's about $13-14), but it's so good I get this dish every time I go.

One last point, in regards to prices, I am pretty sure the Midtown location is $1-2 more expensive per dish than the Chinatown branch. Not surprising given the higher rents, but IMHO, quality downtown is far better.

[cabrales]

robert and Susan brown and I had dinner at Joe's Shanghai, midtown, last night. While I remain of the belief that the only reason to visit JS is for the soup dumplings, below is a description of other dishes sampled (names of dishes not from menu):

(1) Vegetarian Duck Appetizer

Spicy White Cabbage Appetizer

The vegetarian duck was less tasty that some I have had elsewhere. Nonetheless, it was not poor, and the diners agreed it had a nice smokey aspect to it for some reason. While the use of bean curd skin, bamboo ingredients (described, but not clear in taste in the dish) and sliced mushrooms was to be expected in this dish, the skin of the vegetarian duck represented a considerably larger percentage of the total item than I had expected.

The spicy white cabbage was appropriate -- the sweetness in the cole-slaw-like pieces of cabbage was pleasant, and the spiciness appeared only very sporadically.

(2) Sharks' Fin Soup  

We shared one order of sharks' fin soup, which appeared in a ceramic jar with a lid. The soup was appropriately thick in consistency and intense. There was a clear meat stock grounding for the soup, but its taste suggested that meat could have been chicken or beef. Discerning the base was rendered more difficult by the fact that there were some connotations of the use of soy sauce (rather limited) in the soup (not in a bad way). Nonetheless, a decent soup if one is not looking to sample sharks' fin.

There were strands, and the texture of, sharks' fin in the soup, but it was not necessarily of the highest quality (consistent with the pricing of the item) and was not the prominent feature of the soup in our assessment.

(3) 2 orders, Soup Dumplings with Crabmeat and Pork -- Need I say more on this dish? I didn't discern a reduced quality relative to a recent sampling of the same item in Chinatown. There appeared to be less "soup" than in Chinatown, but I have had slightly different soup quantities in either place. Perhaps more on the "soup" inside the dumpling -- There is a certain, non-greasy oiliness or lusciousness to the soup that appeals.  

Even though I have historially not had problems with breakages of soup dumplings (it happened from time to time, of course), during the meal, Bux's post made me more conscious of why I have not had such problems and I was a bit more concerned about avoiding breakage. The strongest part of the soup dumpling is the little "gathered"/"puckered" tip that represents the "tallest" part of the dumpling. This is the area where the "dough" for the dumpling was closed. Breakage problems can be reduced by using the tongs to gently grip part of the puckered area. Breakage might be induced by the dumpling having a clingy piece of green cabbage next to it (to the extent it is a dumpling placed near the edges of the round steamer container). Quick clearing of adjacent cabbage areas (but not the cabbage below, obviously, the dumpling) with the tongs might help reduce breakage.

(4) Squid with Peppery Salt

Tofu with Crabmeat

Our dining party considered ordering an interesting-sounding eel dish, but balked at the indication that the eel was frozen. We opted instead for curled squid. The peppery salt was not added in undue quantities; it was integrated into the light batter surrounding the pieces of squid. Initially, we thought the squid was perhaps a bit "mushier" than we would have liked, but we did not necessarily think that by the end of the meal.

The tofu/crabmeat dish which is listed as the last item under "Joe's Exotic [!] Specialties" on the menu is not the tofu/crabmeat dish I had sampled previously (the previous dish utilized the yellow-colored, with roe and jus presumably, crabmeat included in soup dumplings).  The crabmeat dish we received was less aggressively flavored (not in a bad way), with peas and more neutral saucing. The strands of crabmeat were appropriate, and the tofu was quite soft and smooth.

One significant difference between JS Manhattan Chinatown and JS Midtown is the latter's wine list (and "normal" cocktails selection).  We had a Macon Village that the restaurant had appropriately chilled with our meal. There was more than one bottle on the wine list that we considered acceptable.

Overall, the party enjoyed the soup dumplings considerably. Some of the other dishes exceeded my own low expectations concerning non-dumpling items at JS

[Bux]

there was no way to pick up the buns without their falling apart.

Bux -- I assume your technique is (1) use the tongs to gently lift the targeted soup dumpling off the cabbage leaves on which it is resting, (2) move it using the tongs so it is positioned very close to, but still slightly above, your plastic Chinese soup spoon (which is itself not sitting on anything), and (3) a careful drop onto the spoon.  

I have found the ginger shreds in the vinegar a bit unrefined. However, I still like the JS soup dumplings a lot.

Sorry, I've not been as thorough reading messages for the past few days. I missed your message and question. I can't recall if I've used tongs or chopsticks--tongs if they're provided, otherwise chopsticks--to grab the bun by the "knot" on top. Now, I've not been to Joe's in Chinatown in quite a while, but I remember a few times when the buns were so over cooked that the skins had dissolved to the point that the weight of the filling could not be supported by the skins. That can happen, but when it happens to three or four dumplings twice in a row, it's disappointing. Because this dumplings are literally full of soup, it's very important that the skins don't over cook. I'm explaining this to those who are unfamiliar with the dumplings. Obviously those who have had them understand.

I believe Joe's introduced the "soup dumpling" to Manhattan. In any event, it's where I first had them. I had them about a year ago in the midtown Joe's and they were perfect. Chinatown is much closer to where I am and thus the more likely place for me to go. Joe's is the first Shanghai food I recall eating as well. Someone mentioned the brown sauce. It seems to be a feature of Shanghai cooking as are the cold appetizer dishes. The brown sauce and dishes like lion head and braised pork shoulder are very heavy dishes, but when well done quite tasty. In a way, and in my mind with no real serious attempt to make a strong culinary comparison, I've thought of Shanghai food as the equivalent of Lyonnaise food--hearty and flavorful, but not necessarily full of finesse. Obviously that's a generality and not one I'd defend if someone had a more educated view.

Another dish we loved was baby bok choy with black mushrooms. It also came with a heavy brown sauce. Most of the cold dishes are ones I first tasted at Joe's and they remain my standard, as do the early buns. I remember the mock duck as having a very unique and smokey taste. I found it very appealing and liked it for the bean curd skin more than the mushrooms.

[cabrales]

I had lunch at Joe's Shanghai on West 56th recently. The crab meat with pork steamed soup dumplings were less delicious than usual.

I noted that there is a $23.95/person dinner menu to celebrate the Fourth Anniversary of JS (presumably the West 56th St. branch). A dining room team member described the price as reflecting an average approx. $4-5 reduction relative to a la carte ordering. Note I did not confirm whether portion sizes are identical to those for a la carte dishes. The dishes included in the special menu were:

Appetizer (Choice of one)

Pork Steamed Soup Bun (6 pieces; a la carte price on menu listed as $6.25)

Scallion Pancake (4.50)

Five Spiced Braised Sliced Beef (7.95)

Shredded Spicy Cabbage (5.95)

Turnip Short Cake (4.50)

Main (Choice of one)

Lobster with Ginger & Scallion (ordinarily $18/lb)

Crispy Duck with Peppery Salt (20.95)

Grand Marnier Shrimp with Walnut

Hong Kong Style Roasted Squab

Vegetarian Duck

Dessert

Mochi Ice Cream

[Toby]

Back in the 1970s I was studying Chinese at NYU. Our TA, who was born in Shanghai, took several of us to a Shanghainese restaurant called Say En Luk -- 4-5-6, on East Broadway (long gone, but located right near or maybe even the same location as Dim Sum Go Go). Our teacher just wrote down what he wanted to order, so I never even looked at the menu. We had an incredible meal which I've never been able to approximate in Chinatown. Unfortunately, I can't remember all the courses, but we had a soup with yellow fish, and then yellow fish wrapped in bean curd skin and deep fried. For our last course, when we were all bursting at the seams, they brought a huge platter of meat -- it looked like either a pork shoulder or pork leg that had been braised and was just falling apart with lots of cilantro around it.

I think the quality of food in NY Chinatown has really declined. I generally am the happiest eating at very inexpensive soup noodle restaurants. I haven't been out to Flushing -- is the food better there, as a rule? In San Francisco I was addicted to salt and pepper squid from Yuet Lee. I, rather pathetically, keep on trying to find a restaurant that prepares it as Yuet Lee does -- they really brown it and make a very hot dipping sauce on the side with lots of jalapeno -- and am constantly disappointed. Also in San Francisco there are a number of Hakka Chinese restaurants which have some interesting specialties -- stuffed deep fried bean curd casseroles and salt roasted chicken. Anyone know of any Hakka restaurants in NY?

[cabrales]

After several recent meals at the Joe Shanghai's West 56th St. branch, I am inclined to believe that the quality of its soup buns has deteriorated.

A recent visit to the Pell St branch hints at the possibility of a deterioration there too, although I lack sufficient data points on that branch. Razor clams with black bean and jalapeno were mediocre.

Separately, I recently ate at Tse Yang in midtown. Another diner chose the venue. This is a Chinese restaurant that has Haut Brion on its list. Sadly, the food was mediocre. There were two prix fixe-type menus, one at $45 and the other at $55. We ordered the $55, which included (1) sharks' fin and crabmeat soup -- lacked authenticity and harbored too many sugar-based tastes, (2) appetizers of fried small scallops and shrimp drenched in an unappealing sauce, accompanied by an unduly aggressive Singapore-type noodle dish, (3) Peking duck -- not bad, (4) shredded duckmeat with juliennes of vegetables -- unduly sweet and also overcooked, and (5) caramelized apples (apple quality was poor, with significant sogginess; "caramel" exterior was mediocre).

[Kobi]

While I know it receives very mixed reviews on this board and others, I am going with a large group to Joe's Shanghai today for lunch. Having been to many of the Chinatown staples, I was wondering if there are any particular dishes that anyone reccomends at Joe's (on Pell St).

Thanks so much in advance.

- Kobi

[slkinsey]

The soup dumplings are Joe's selling point, so they are must-try. Elsewhere people have recommended the braised bean curd over spinach and their eel with yellow chives. They also have a steamed chicken dish with a light sauce that Eric_Malson recommends highly.

[AzianBrewer]

Not worth the hype. Bad service and mediocre entrees. Also, never order Szechuan dishes in Joe Shanghai. Sorry Joe you guys are just clueless in that category. Their core competency is Shanghaiese better off sticking with that. I think Green Bo in Bayer Street is a lot better. Goody on East Broadway is another good place for soup dumplings. Way before Joe Shanghai, Joe used to work for his sister Goody in Queens. I am not sure the detail of the split but I am sure there's some sort of "conflict of interest" involved.

[Jammin]

The last time I was in DSGG, I noticed that Goody's next door had a special on the buns.

←

now that's funny. 3+ years later and they are still running that special. (and i still love to take advantage of it even with the 50-cent increase...)

[weinoo]

Always thought they did a good job with braised pork shoulder - it's a Shanghainese dish, which makes sense.

[Bux]

Always thought they did a good job with braised pork shoulder - it's a Shanghainese dish, which makes sense.

←

It's also not my idea of summer food. Come to think of it, most Shanghai dishes, or at least the ones I like, seem to be heavy foods. I haven't been in Joe's Shanghai in years. The opened Joe's Ginger north of Canal Street and we go there a fair amount however. Similar menus, but I think the menu at JS is more extensive.

Posting for same day recommendations can be frustrating. I just got to the thread. I hope you went for the Shanghai food as recommended. I think that's what they do best, but I've enjoyed most of the other food I've had there. They used to make a very good rendition of baby bok choy with black mushrooms, or regular bok choy when baby bok choy wasn't available.

[Kobi]

Went and enjoyed it yesterday. Certainly not my favorite place in Chinatown, but I would go back. We had a huge variety of dishes- the most dissapointing were the soup dumplings, far behind NGBo and others, IMHO. We also had a couple more "touristy" dishes, of which the best was the Kung Po Chicken.

I would probably go back, but have had far better experiences, at less expensive prices, at other, more local places. Having a chinese speaking co-worker always helps the cause.

Thanks for all the tips.

- Kobi

[Jeff L]

I'll be here Saturday with a group of 7 hungry guys. Besides the obvious soup dumplings and razor back clams, anyone want to point me to dishes that are very well executed and tasty

[weinoo]

I'd go for one of the roasted or braised pork shoulders.