Professional Culinarians for Hire!

[detlefchef]

DETLEFCHEF,

if the tipshare were divided equally among the staff, we pay the entire staff roughly 6 bucks an hour more on top of their adjusted salry and the enitre staff walks home with roughly , well, you do the math. the variance is with employment percentage costs. in my case it will be roughly 40% because i want health benefits as well.

the salary of the staff will be directly proportionate to the amount of business we do, the quality of food and service. the cooks salary will be directly affected by their preformance.

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For godsakes Shwartz, you do the freaking math! Assuming that your restaurant doesn't generate anymore money than one that serves the same high-end cuisine but adheres to more conventional staffing formats (and there are as many reasons to say it wouldn't as there are that it would). There is no more money to go around.

Assuming, also, that your utopian restaurant would have to adhere to industry standards in terms of labor costs, where does this extra money come from? Ah yes, the tips. Well, if that's the case, you are taking money from one segment and giving it to another. Thus, EVERYBODY, does not make more. Those who would have made less in the standard restaurant, make more in yours. Those who make more... well, as you said, do the math.

[ChefSwartz]

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Edited May 14, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[Weissman]

If you rotate every few weeks or so, wouldn't the standard of the dishes and service be spotty. One saute line cook may finally get settled on his dishes, and then, once again, it's time to switch.

I believe that Legal Seafood takes three of four employees and take turns working in the back and front of the house. It is important to train your employees so they know and understand the entire operation.

It's not a bad idea, but there are some professionals in the industry who are better suited for their positions. For instance, a line cook with tons of tatoos, visible piercings, and funky colored hair, would not be appropriate to work in the front of the house. However, a well suited maitre'd may have no idea how to cook a medium rare steak. This is of course the situation of fine dining.

[Susan G]

I agree, Weissman, and I have another thought: How do you pay the staff equitably? Does eveyone get paid a flat rate, or is the pay dependant upon the skill level of the task involved? Speaking as a former waitress, if I had been told I was going to be rotating to the grill line in three weeks, I would have quit. I know my limitations.

Isn't there another, less drastic way to get feedback from FOH? Like asking the waitstaff to come sous for a few hours a week, before the dinner rush?

You think putting addicted, surly people in FOH would be good for business? Especially when they're used to a pecking order in the rigid hierarchy which they've spent years climbing? *These* people interacting all night long with a demanding public? No. Nope. Bad idea. Good chefs rarely have the temperment to cope with a four-top who keeps you running for water refills, etc.

[ChefSwartz]

f I had been told I was going to be rotating to the grill line in three weeks, I would have quit.  I know my limitations....

You think putting addicted, surly people in FOH would be good for business?  Especially when they're used to a pecking order in the rigid hierarchy which they've spent years climbing? ...

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you or ANY of these guys wouldnt even get an interview. you obviously have to buy into the system! i mean come on thats common sense right!

based on this model:

120 seats

a modest 900 covers per week

$40 check average (which is somewhat low to start)

thats $36,000 gross rev.

thats $6,480 tip share(at 18%)

(35% employee costs + tipshare)- $1000 per week medical / 25 employees =

($19,080)-1000/25= $725 per week per employee

let me also add that i can go as high as 40% employee costs, and 900 covers a week is just until we get known.

the rotation would be 4 weeks, it takes a person maybe a week to master their prospective station. the food wouldnt be anymore spotty than any other place because the unruly demands of more than one can handle, wont be an issue.

if my math is inconclusive or wrong please tell me.

Edited May 14, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[Silly Disciple]

As a customer, I think I would choose to eat a steak at a place where the guy in the grill has been grilling steaks for a while, rather than by someone who was serving tables last week and prepping veggies last month. I just don't see how a great server can make my steak better than a great griller would.

What I'm trying to say is that from the point of view of the consumer (not only in the hospitality industry, but as a general idea), specialization brings experience, and experience brings confidence.

Plus, on a more personal note and without much experience on the subject, I would tend to agree with the opinion that FOH and BOH have different motivations, and thus you would need to find people who can be passionate about both.

SD

[PassionateChefsDie]

f I had been told I was going to be rotating to the grill line in three weeks, I would have quit.  I know my limitations....

You think putting addicted, surly people in FOH would be good for business?  Especially when they're used to a pecking order in the rigid hierarchy which they've spent years climbing? ...

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you or ANY of these guys wouldnt even get an interview. you obviously have to buy into the system! i mean come on thats common sense right!

based on this model:

120 seats

a modest 900 covers per week

$40 check average (which is somewhat low to start)

thats $36,000 gross rev.

thats $6,480 tip share(at 18%)

(35% employee costs + tipshare)- $1000 per week medical / 25 employees =

($19,080)-1000/25= $725 per week per employee

let me also add that i can go as high as 40% employee costs, and 900 covers a week is just until we get known.

the rotation would be 4 weeks, it takes a person maybe a week to master their prospective station. the food wouldnt be anymore spotty than any other place because the unruly demands of more than one can handle, wont be an issue.

if my math is inconclusive or wrong please tell me.

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I wouldn't want to work for someone that thought it takes a person a week to master their section! Or want to part with my money in such an establishment.

[BryanZ]

An interesting disccussion. I'm inclined to believe that this type of place would only work if you have passionate, young talent who really want to make it in the food service industry. As people have mentioned, the CIA and other culinary schools rotate their students through both FOH and BOH as part of their training. In theory, this makes sense because these young culinary students are looking to make the restaurant business their lives' profession and thus want to have as deep an understanding of the industry as possible. To open a restaurant with this concept, however, seems more challenging. For the reasons numerous individuals have pointed out, it would only cater to people relatively new in the industry who want both FOH and BOH experience. I can't see a grizzled veteran broiler man coming to take people's orders and and bring them bread.

[detlefchef]

f I had been told I was going to be rotating to the grill line in three weeks, I would have quit.  I know my limitations....

You think putting addicted, surly people in FOH would be good for business?  Especially when they're used to a pecking order in the rigid hierarchy which they've spent years climbing? ...

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you or ANY of these guys wouldnt even get an interview. you obviously have to buy into the system! i mean come on thats common sense right!

based on this model:

120 seats

a modest 900 covers per week

$40 check average (which is somewhat low to start)

thats $36,000 gross rev.

thats $6,480 tip share(at 18%)

(35% employee costs + tipshare)- $1000 per week medical / 25 employees =

($19,080)-1000/25= $725 per week per employee

let me also add that i can go as high as 40% employee costs, and 900 covers a week is just until we get known.

the rotation would be 4 weeks, it takes a person maybe a week to master their prospective station. the food wouldnt be anymore spotty than any other place because the unruly demands of more than one can handle, wont be an issue.

if my math is inconclusive or wrong please tell me.

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"deafleftchef,

please dont make an ass out of both of us.

dont assume you know anything, because you dont."

OK, gloves off.

So, I take it from the enormously tactful replies you've given to anyone finding fault in your concept that you are one of those charming types of chefs that will have outstanding dining room etiquette? What happens the first time some customer has the nerve to send back a plate of food? Are you going to tell them "not to assume they know anything, because they don't"?

If I may back up. You mentioned that EVERYONE would make more money. Let me illustrate the folly in that statement.

Restaurant A and B have exactly the same sales, exactly the same tips, and pay exactly the same % in labor costs. One is the typical place that doesn't pay everyone the same, the other is Chez Shwartz, that pools tips and pays the same. The point is, regardless of how that money is distributed, EVERYONE, can't make more. There is only so much money to go around.

Now, perhaps EVERYONE makes more money because Chez Swartz pays, as you imply, 35%-40% in labor costs. That, of course, would have more to do with the fact that your labor costs are 5-10% over industry standards. If I may. Unless you can get your combined food and labor costs to around 60%, you're going to be in trouble. So, obviously you're going to make it up on the food. However, I'm assuming that in this magical place of yours, only high quality, locally grown artisan foods will be served. That, of course, throws that theory out the window, so you'll be lucky to keep that number under 30% as well.

Now for the biggest zinger. By limiting yourself to only culinarians who are talented and passionate at all phases of the restaurant, you're aiming pretty high. Basically, you're talking about people who could basically run a restaurant. And you're going to get all these people for about $35K a year?

Don't get me wrong, there is a ton wrong with the industry. The business model that is predicated on working the kitchen staff to death has got to go. People shouldn't have to be martyrs to get ahead. It's just that I don't think your idea is very sound. I'm sorry, but that's my perogative. Deal with it.

[PassionateChefsDie]

f I had been told I was going to be rotating to the grill line in three weeks, I would have quit.  I know my limitations....

You think putting addicted, surly people in FOH would be good for business?  Especially when they're used to a pecking order in the rigid hierarchy which they've spent years climbing? ...

←

you or ANY of these guys wouldnt even get an interview. you obviously have to buy into the system! i mean come on thats common sense right!

based on this model:

120 seats

a modest 900 covers per week

$40 check average (which is somewhat low to start)

thats $36,000 gross rev.

thats $6,480 tip share(at 18%)

(35% employee costs + tipshare)- $1000 per week medical / 25 employees =

($19,080)-1000/25= $725 per week per employee

let me also add that i can go as high as 40% employee costs, and 900 covers a week is just until we get known.

the rotation would be 4 weeks, it takes a person maybe a week to master their prospective station. the food wouldnt be anymore spotty than any other place because the unruly demands of more than one can handle, wont be an issue.

if my math is inconclusive or wrong please tell me.

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So let me see if I got this right over half is going on wages 25*$725=$18125+ $12000 food costs(Working on 66% GP) leaving less than $6000 for overheads and profit are you trying to make money or go broke, $312000 overheads and profit for a year doing 46800 covers not very profitable shame you haven't done the maths, from a turnover of $1.8 million dollars in your first year! 130 covers a day have you got a reputation that I dont know about?

[chromedome]

It's a very interesting notion, Chef S, and I surely do hope you can make it happen.

Not everybody's going to be onside with this sort of a scenario, but you knew that from the start (and if you didn't, you've definitely been informed by now). Personally, I would love to work in a restaurant like that...if it wasn't 'way the hell and gone in NC...

I think you'll find an upside-downside scenario as re staffing. Obviously, it's hard enough finding good people for either FOH or BOH; finding people enthused about working both will be even harder. On the upside, I think people who buy into the concept will tend to stick around and be enthused about their jobs.

[ChefSwartz]

i repeat, i only need 25 or so not EVERYONE, it will obviously take a special person and people who want to learn

i was looking for some good rebuttle and i got a little i guess, nothing that i havent considered already. i was looking for an angle i handnt seen and instead only the superficial has been presented.

percentage-wise the interest has been positive, about 25% think it is doable and worth trying the other 75% are mad are confused, i cant decide.

oh by the way there wont be any rent due because the land is paid for, this will allow me to raise my empl. costs. i have heard it as high as 50% in some of these cases, but i guess yall new that.

hey, thanks for playing though!

[ChefSwartz]

It's a very interesting notion, Chef S, and I surely do hope you can make it happen. 

Not everybody's going to be onside with this sort of a scenario, but you knew that from the start (and if you didn't, you've definitely been informed by now).  Personally, I would love to work in a restaurant like that...if it wasn't 'way the hell and gone in NC...

I think you'll find an upside-downside scenario as re staffing.  Obviously, it's hard enough finding good people for either FOH or BOH; finding people enthused about working both will be even harder.  On the upside, I think people who buy into the concept will tend to stick around and be enthused about their jobs.

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its in ARIZONA

[WHT]

This plan in a nutshell is a form of market socialism and will not work in any capitalist economy. Even if we get beyond how “tip pooling” is tightly regulated on a federal tax level. There are a lot of other implications as far as moral and service. People tend to work in areas that suit them. Great FOH are not tuned to the dance of BOH and the congruent is true.

The utopian balance you describe cannot sustain itself too few people will be available for hire and even less for replacement people. An iterating experiment in social justice that can’t work in the long run,

[rooftop1000]

I have been "in foodservice" for over 20 yrs but have actually never worked in a real restaurant.

Delis, cafes, luncheonetts, currently corporate dining...but all of these positions have been whatever needs doing gets done by someone.

My day starts making coffee and setting up breakfast service...cold stuff..then on the register till the boss shows up....try to prep soup during register time....then on the grill maybe, finish soup prep set up lunch ie deli station. Back on the register 11-12 boss runs to bank market and feeds her dog

Make sandwiches grilled foods fried foods... hand food to customers

2-3 break down refill and clean deli, sweep and mop.

so this concept means I would only have to deal with customers or cook or mop...not all at once

sign me up

i hate when the mirpoix burns

[Chris Amirault]

Gentle members,

I had to delete a few posts that clearly violated the eGullet Society User Agreement's prohibition against "mean-spirited insults or other disruptive posts." Let's keep the discussion on plans for rotating FOH and BOH, please.

Thanks for your consideration.

[culinary bear]

What type of food are you planning to serve at this restaurant?

[ChefSwartz]

The cuisine will be fine dining. Everything from scratch to reiterate the apprenticing aspect. Bakery, Gardening, Every hot/cold line position, plus waiting tables. The entrees will be from 16-30 dollars respectively. apps from 5-12.

wine and beer tasting menus available, along with a vegetarian tasting menu.

whatever we cant grow, we will aquire.

not ultra-refined, but the highest quality ingredients prepared in the most respectful manner.

i dont expect the food to be perfect for each person at first, but if they have say, 2 dishes and have to prepare the mise en place for 4 weeks per station, i think they could master the food in a week. i think at first it may be a little inconsistent per person. there will be strong sautee's and great grillmen, even stupendous bakers. but they wont be there unless they want to. there will be a roundsman to train, as the staff rotates. lets say 4 people switch every week thats 24 people every 6 weeks.

i really dont think it is asking to much to master 2 dishes in a week, there will be a controlled output of quality, if it gets out of hand then a qualified person will step in, they will be given time to learn, not a "sink or swim" attitude. but obviously the quality can not diminsh below the threshold of value.

Edited May 16, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[culinary bear]

So would you say that primarily you're going to be running a restaurant where the chefs wait the tables, or one where the waitstaff cook? If you're planning a mixture of both, which would you say describes your plan better?

I'm just trying to clarify in my own mind the angle that you're coming from, that's all.

[detlefchef]

I'm not exactly sure why I'm writing this. Perhaps I just hate to see people fail, but I urge you to take a very hard look at the financials involved. Obviously I don't know the whole picture of your venture, but I have gleaned plenty from the bits you've thrown out and it very much appears to be the tip of an iceberg of poor financial planning.

Honestly, I actually have little doubt that you can keep the quality up. You are entirely correct in thinking that you should be able to find enough people who can handle all the phases, provided you keep things simple. As you said, it doesn't take that many. That said, you are going to have public perception issues that are not unlike the unbased fears people have about dining in a restaurant on the Owner/Chef's night off. Often times the food is at least as good when the hungry and focused sous chef is behind the wheel rather than the distracted owner but people just can't get past the fact that they're being fed by the "B" team. In your case, right of wrong, people will be afraid you have the "B" team on several stations every week (if you stagger the rotation which I seriously suggest you do) or on the entire restaurant if everyone moves at once. I can't help but imagine that the most often asked question by people making reservations will be, "Did you just rotate the staff?"

Of course, that is really a minor problem by comparison to the money issue.

Do yourself a big favor and don't assume that your place will be immune from most of the same costs and concerns that effect nearly every restaurant in the world. In many cases, cutting costs from one side results in increased costs elsewhere. Obviously the rub is to find a concept that cheats one or more of the common costs without making it up elsewhere. Perhaps you've done that, but owning the land outright only solves that problem on a very superficial level.

Unless the land and money to upfit it (I'm guessing an absolute minimum of $1 mil) was donated, someone needs to get paid. So every dollar you save on rent goes into either servicing the debt (if it's structured that way) or providing a reasonable ROE to your investor. Either way, the man's gotta get paid and likely to the tune of at least $200K/year. Simply regarding this as a real estate speculation doesn't hold much water either because they are tying up a considerable amount of money for a long time without any return.

That you've eluded to the fact that you (or anyone) could survive labor costs as high as 40% or even 50% is nothing short of frightening because you've got to assume that absolutely everything will break just right to make those numbers up. No sound business plan should ever be predicated on overcoming such odds.

The age-old breakdown of 30(COG)-30(Labor)-30(Overhead)-10(profit) is there for a reason because it often works out pretty damn close. Obviously each place is different, but I've always found it to be a very good starting point and require myself to find a specifically related and reciprocal savings associated with every cost that exceeds one of those numbers. For example, your high end steakhouse runs COGs higher than 30% because they're serving large cuts of very expensive meat. On the other hand, it takes one guy just a short while to portion all the meat for the night and you don't have a legion of prep cooks turning root vegetables into art. Thus, they make it back up on the labor and you have your specific and reciprocal savings. That is just one example.

What substantial business advantage do you gain from running labor costs so high? If you can't find any, there's a problem. I can assure you, any market shares that it gains you will be smaller than you think. There's plenty of very tasty food being generated by backward thinking chefs like me that nearly the entire dining public will be no more inclined to dine at your place than Chez Whatever down the street. Certainly you'll enjoy lower turnover than most. Of course, the costs of high turnover are typically thought of as labor costs (training and productivity) and you've already forfeited those savings by running a high labor cost anyway.

Once again, a savy businessperson can often shave some from one or more of those cost categories, and the overhead can often be lowered considerably. However, willingly exceeding any of those parameters by as much as you suggest is a risky move indeed.

Your place could, in fact, prove to be a utopia for like minded restaurant professionals. However, that's only a good thing if you can create a thriving business. As souless and cold hearted as it may seem, that's a pretty unavoidable reality.

There you have it. So which does this make me, mad or confused?

[ChefSwartz]

okay, i am counting on a few things.

first year we get our name out there.

second year we have our name out there and the staff is set.

third year we try and max tables completely.

the premise is this, by our second year our staff will be a well oiled machine. intertwining parts that run off each other with unparralleled efficiency. no turnover for at least 3 or 4 years if that. I am looking at very long term employees here. i also want to be the perfect size where we can maximize our seats almost every night. this is NOT an unrealistic expectation as long as the locals are fully supportive and the size of the place represents their capacity.

i could very easily follow the pattern of restaurants already in place. it would be no problem to mimick the finances of a highend place with 30-30-30-10. the whole thing is I think that 40-30-20-10. most accurately portrays my vision. I dont want to worry about the money. im not an accountant im a chef. however if followed precisely, by the time we reach our stride 18 months or less, the demand will be higher than the supply. i will never be the chef of the sad salad guy that just wants out or the dishwasher that only washes dishes.

i dont buy that one day that maybe the food on johnny's station will be sub-par, i mean were professionals! we get paid to cook. we decide as a group what the food will be, how it will be portioned, we will taste and critic everything as a group. the checks and balances will not allow sub-par food to be served.

what do you think if i opened on mondays for half the time, a single sitting with say food at half price to give the newly positioned staff time to get acclamated? that may expunge unnecessary inconsistencies.

I think that the customer base will revel in the fact that the waitstaff are also the chefs. the dining public is just as aware of the problems with waitstaff as I and so many of you are. they are ready for a change without question.

the restaurant will be chef-minded with all the courteous flamboyance of a good waitstaff. it will be our nature to succeed. because "chefs get there"

the employees will be directly responsible for their income resulting in higher productivity and quality. the output of the staff will reciprocate through the finances. i dont plan to start at 40 though. i plan to start at 35. work my way up to 40 when certain objectives are met.

we will definitely stagger the rotation it would be proposterous to try and switch the entire staff at once. i dont want to create a rivalry between teams. plus to even out the sides it will be most necessary.

rent is equated to roughly 5-10% no? if the investor wants to reinvest that money in the employees to back the system, i dont understand why i cant quite simply move those percentages over! please tell me why i cannot. i am looking for the negatives but i just dont see them.

for the cooks out there....

when you first got tossed on grill or salads or sauces or wherever, that first night you were being trained, ok you had 3 dishes or 2, i really dont remember it taking weeks to learn the grill or even days to master the sauce. it took me years and months to learn the whys, but you can still put out a great consistent product without having to know the whys, most of the restaurants in this country follow that pattern and dont even consider it.

i must say i am not afraid of failure, it is only money and only life and whatever will be, will be. im not the "one" in charge if you know what i mean. you would be suprised what sound moral and ethical structure can do for a place, then again i dont know of many models to look at in that category, that is where we will stand alone. in business there is the element of luck and then there is the element of variables. eliminating risk is NOT always profitable. god will allow me to succeed and to fail, which time is this? i wont know that until its over. but thanks be to him for the opportunity to try.

Edited May 18, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[detlefchef]

I'm simply trying to explain some unavoidable truths. You say you're not an accountant but a chef. Well that makes two of us. That said, that doesn't give anyone liscense to ignore the basic facts.

You mention that you could "easily" follow the 30-30-30-10 model. I don't see how. In an earlier post, you broke down how everyone would get paid and it came to about 35%. That, assumed that nobody made more than $35K until you exceeded $1.8 mil. I once again wonder how many commited restaurant pros who are talented enough to work every station in the house you'll get for that kind of money. If you're going to "easily" make it to 30% labor, now everyone's looking at closer to 30K which is even more unlikely.

I suppose there are some fundamental issues that we are not likely to get past here. Since I've never met a single investor/landlord who's willing to completely forgo rent so that I can pay more labor costs, I guess I'm outside my area of expertise. I spent some time working with non-profits and just couldn't get down the lack of accountability.

I'm just urging you, once more, not to assume that you can keep your overhead below 20%. There are many costs in that category that are essentially out of your control and it takes real hardcore accountant type mentality to squeeze them down. Since you rather proudly claim to not be of that ilk... Doing those types of numbers should be a pleasant surprise, not an absolute requirement for survival.

Lastly, it is folly to overestimate the effect your concept will have on the dining public. Our rent is not paid by true enthusiasts that would get off on the sort of thing you are doing. Our rent is paid by Joe and Jane Spendingmoney who simply want a nice meal (which they're already getting and will continue to get regardless of whether or not your restaurant ever exists). The true enthusiast make up a tiny portion of your clientelle, especially if you are looking to do 180 covers a night in a market that isn't huge. As I said before, fair or not, you are likely going to have to overcome public perceptions at least as much as you are going to be able to count them among your assets. Just look at the number of people on a website dedicated to food that had concerns. I mean, these are the type of people that you'll need to have 100% in your court and you're pulling maybe 50%. You can write them off as pretenders who don't really get it, but if they weren't really into food, what are they doing on e-Gullet? Their fears may be unbased, but unfortunately, that's your problem, not theirs. After all, you're the one who's staking his livelihood on enough people thinking your idea is great.

So, your choice to rotate staff can only be fairly looked at as a quality of life issue, not as an angle that will earn you market shares. Thus, any additional costs associated with doing so should not be assumed to be offset by additional revenues.

Honestly, I applaud your desire to shake up the jar. My group is also comitted to shifting the paradigms of our industry. We too, want to inspire our employees and not created business models predicated on working our salaried employees to the bone.

You don't need to convince me your idea is sound, you just need to make sure it's sound. Once upon a time, I was talking with someone who was opening a restaurant in my town about his projections. I told him that he seemed to have an enormous staff and the numbers didn't seem to add up. The next day he told me he fixed the problem. All he did was raise his sales projections! Needless to say, he lasted maybe a year.

[TheFoodTutor]

The only thing that I can add to this heated conversation is that there is a little hidden money in restaurants that can be tapped to go toward "everyone making more money" theoretically, and I've seen it in practice, so I think there is something to be gained from the philosophy originally stated in the premise of this thread.

Namely, anytime you have employees standing around, there is money to be gained. Anytime you have employees standing around, bored, while other employees are going down in flames behind a wall of weeds, there is definitely money to be gained. Anytime there is something inefficient happening anywhere in this lean business, there is money to be gained. And that money can be found through cooperation.

Here's a great example: I have worked in fine dining restaurants where servers would enter the dish pit, coming from bussing a table, and they find that they must stand in line behind other servers, who have also bussed tables, and these servers wait for 5 minutes or more, with hands full of plates that need to be scraped, waiting for the other servers to scrape and be done. Now, I work in a restaurant where we don't do that, and I can't tell you how much time we save. When I come up on the dish pit, full hands, I tell the next server, "Drop and Go!" He asks me, "What do you need?" Sometimes, I tell him I need nothing, but that he should go run food. Sometimes I tell him to drop an iced tea at 8.2 (table 8, point 2). Sometimes I tell him that they need bowls or ramekins to the line. Meanwhile, one person is scraping, and everyone else can do something productive, rather than waiting. Tables turn faster. People get better service. Everyone makes out for the better.

There are lots of ways to implement these things. In this situation, the cooks know that our servers are allowed back on the line to back up china, and they welcome this, rather than telling us FOH grunts to get off the line. Believe me, I've worked in places where backing up china to the line was a full time job, so having servers do it every time they pass through dish is saving you an hourly employee, more money to go around.

Cooperation between front and back does save money and provide better service. The compromise between the original post and people who say it cannot be done is in the details of implementing this, especially in upscale dining, because this is where the greatest divide exists (granted, because at that level, you look for more professionals dedicated to their specialization.)

Now, most servers can do prep, and perform many BOH functions, but asking them to memorize how to set up the mise for each station in addition to what they know for FOH can be a little much. On the flipside, asking your line cooks to memorize the wine list and keep abreast of all the changes therein each week, would also be a little much.

But there are ways to take this idea and work it into something profitable which will also be a good dining experience.

[WHT]

The more I look at it the more I see multiple points of failure. If I understand correctly you plan on growing all you own produce or at least a major part of it? How much land do you have available for this? I hope you have most of the cultivation equipment already. Not to mention the expertise to run the farm section. Crop failure would be one of my biggest concerns. Zucchini grows well in a lot of places even ones with poor soil but depending on the soil in the area you intend to farm it could take 3-5 years to get the soil to the point that it is productive and generates a good yield. You might be better off just growing simple items at first and buying premium produce and slowly switching over as your farm becomes more productive.

I know that North Carolina is a growing area but I defer to my previous statement on labor. I don’t think there would be enough people in your area interested in the type of system you plan to implement. Though to your credit I know of several Gaucho steak houses that the wait staff is cooking there own offerings of meat and they train for over two years before they ever are let loose. I have worked both sides of the house and find that even though I have good sales skills and like selling I am better suited to BOH work. I think a plan like yours would need to be in California or the PNW to have a decent shot not only for talent but growth.

What incentive is there for the person interested in working for you? Does pay rise with each new skill? There has to be something tangible that these people are working towards. Again on paper it looks good but the average person is going to ask; “So after I master or at least competent everything what is the next step?” measurable performance and a defined career path are important to any business.

The idea of being open one day a week for testing food is interesting. But you may find that you are really busy on that day and relatively quite the rest of the week. The discount of 50% is too deep and may detract from your clients' perception of value. It also raises the question in the clients mind of why isn’t his food cheaper other times. Sell value not price. You might be better off offering some other form of compensation like coupons for X% off on there next two regular visits. Sell the sizzle not the stake.

Investors’ are a strange breed of people. I have seen many silent partners get rather loud about things they know little about. I have also seen examples of people abusing the investor’s trust. They want the money to go to things that pay a return rather than to fixed costs like labor. Please make sure any thing you do meets with their approval and put it in writing and get it signed. Your statement about not being an accountant, ok who is going to watch over the P&L? As the Chef you should know where the money is coming from and were it is going. Prime example of this was that reality show The Restaurant. If things don’t work out and a backer draws out or worse wants his share bought out how will this be taken care of? The Spike TV show The Club showed other examples of good dreams gone badly.

One of the reasons why you might not be seeing the downside to any part of your plan is it is your D R E A M.! Not that there is anything wrong with having a dream but it can turn into an obsession. I know of a guy that opened up what he lovingly referred to as an upscale taccoria and coffee shop. He spent lavishly on equipment and the interior of his place. The best of everything including buying outright a $3000.00 espresso machine and a frozen beverage machine along with all sorts of brand new equipment for the place. This was done in retail space owned by his father and not able to have been rented out in over 5 years. Did I mention it was in a small shopping center with an auto parts store and a discount grocer that catered to low-income shoppers? I know I have yet to mention that finding a parking spot in the lot could take 20 Min. to find on average and that the location did not have a lot of walk by traffic. BTW there are 15 other Mexican food places in a on mile radius of the place. Only three of them had any sort of track record and several of the others changed hands on too quick a basis. You couple this with his starting out with a staff of over 20 people not including he (Who knew little of Mexican and nothing of coffee.), his wife (Bookkeeper), brother-in-law0 (Former assistant manager from a Cracker Barrel.) or father (dad owns several other dinner type places and was part backer in this.) open form 7am to 11pm for the first year.

Now he is open from 10-8 closed on Sundays but also offers subs, pizza, bar-b-q plus ice cream and delivery. This place is only still open due to his father’s deep pockets. Dad a silent partner forced some of the changes in menu to try and stir up more business. They have had full color on 80# gloss stock for their takeout menus, aggressively advertised in print as well as radio and cable TV. Still cretin insurmountable problems remain. I am sure most people would be able to figure it out in a heartbeat. Simple concept, decent food and a friendly staff could not overcome the flaws of the operation.

I am glad to see that you seem to be somewhat risk tolerant but are your investors? Will this be a corporation, LLC or some form of partnership? Have you reviewed everything through a lawyer or trusted agent? It looks like you may have several areas that have significant legal exposure. Part of the reason you have found too few working models of this type of operation is it is extremely complex to execute and takes a ton of money to get rolling. Starting up a restaurant is risky enough even with out some of the “out of the box” ideas you would like to implement. I am not saying it can’t be done but it looks like it has more development to go through.

I would assume you have more than one investor. Find out how tolerant they are of loss and their thoughts on what will happen if things don’t go as outlined. Make sure you have all necessary permits and paperwork started as early as you can so you don’t have any last moment surprises. Start planning your press and promotions now and not just before opening or worse yet after. Have contingency plans, policies and training manuals developed and in place. Know what areas of law effect your operation and become well versed in them. Health code, labor laws, taxes and zoning come to mind but there are others that you need to be versed in.

Good luck in your endeavor I do hope you can pull it off.

[detlefchef]

The only thing that I can add to this heated conversation is that there is a little hidden money in restaurants that can be tapped to go toward "everyone making more money" theoretically, and I've seen it in practice, so I think there is something to be gained from the philosophy originally stated in the premise of this thread.

Namely, anytime you have employees standing around, there is money to be gained. Anytime you have employees standing around, bored, while other employees are going down in flames behind a wall of weeds, there is definitely money to be gained. Anytime there is something inefficient happening anywhere in this lean business, there is money to be gained. And that money can be found through cooperation.

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The only flaw in this argument as it pertains to the subject is that those efficiencies are available to any restaurant that wants to impliment them. Yours is a fine example. I'm assuming that yours is not a cooperative venture in the style of Chef S and you are reaping the rewards. Thus, if he can garner some of that "extra money", he's not gaining any ground on your place. All you're talking about is simply being an effective manager of your labor which is something everyone should strive for regardless of the restaurant format. So this also can't be considered a reciprocal savings to his decision on structuring the labor.

In actuallity, it could be even harder for him to reap those benefits. The "found" money you speak of is made real by being able to get 4 people to do the work of 5 and sending that 5th person home. Well, if your entire staff is basically on salary, where does the money come from?

In fact, that brings up yet another major problem with the concept. How do you address the fact that you'll typically need 25% more staff to get the ball rolling than you do once everything is ironed out. In the real world, you hire more than you need and figure you can start cutting back people as things smooth out. With waitstaff that's easy, you've got a handful that have a bunch of other things going on and don't mind only getting a few shifts. Chef S better be pretty spot on when he determines how many people he needs because he's not going to have much wiggle room. Especially if he's recruited these people from all over the place to come be a part of this. What that's going to mean is an excessively high pre-opening labor budget and lot's of expensive dry-runs so they can be more dialed in than the average restaurant when they finally open the doors. Yet another thing standing in the way of the investors and their payback.