Fernand Point and his Influence

[Boris_A]

I'll bet that picture was taken in Vienne at la Pyramide with Point's widow. I'm also beginning to suspect the instuctor may be confused about his facts or his chef.

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The Japanese cook when photographed together with Mado, Point's wife, has roughly the same age as in the picture with Bocuse (right side). Bocuse was in Japan around 1970, Point died 1955 at the age of 57 and Mado looks quite older on that picture. Around 70, I estimate.

And Point's cuisine stands for a lot of things (regional, fresh ingredients, a relatively small number of guests, no longer accepting the rigidity of Escoffier's rules, to name a few) but surely not for the lighter, healthier, less fatty style of Nouvelle Cuisine, not to mention of Japanese cuisine.

I mean, just take a look at the famous picture by Doisneau, when Point had some healthy 320 pounds: can you imagine this travel-hating French colossus being impressed by Japanese miso soup and sushi? This notorious funster known by a thousand jokes and bonmots not having made a funny word about the Japanese dwarfs and their lean cuisine?

I think before we should start a research by thousands of food lovers throughout the world and scanning the libraries all over about Points mysterious journey to Japan, we should want to know who exactly does claim such an event.

[torakris]

I'll bet that picture was taken in Vienne at la Pyramide with Point's widow. I'm also beginning to suspect the instuctor may be confused about his facts or his chef.

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The Japanese cook when photographed together with Mado, Point's wife, has roughly the same age as in the picture with Bocuse (right side). Bocuse was in Japan around 1970, Point died 1955 at the age of 57 and Mado looks quite older on that picture. Around 70, I estimate.

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Sorry to confuse everyone with the picture, I just thought it was cute..

The chef (Rui Yamagata) didn't say when the picture was taken, but his biography says he was in France in 1982, long after Point was dead.

[Laidback]

The chef in the top right group photo looks a bit like Pierre Troisgros don't you think?

[Bux]

Sites like this, that discuss his greatness   would definitely mention a trip to Japan..

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I'll take your word for it that they don't.

[Boris_A]

I guess somehwere up there, Fernand is reading here and ROTFLHAO.

There's a story that once, there was a fire in some rooms of the Pyramide. They called the fire department, but they didnt' come, because they thought this just being another of Point's dreaded jokes. When Point learned why the refused to come, he couldn't stop laughing, the anecdote mentions.

[Hiroyuki]

I had noticed the thread in the France Forum before you started another here in the Japan Forum. I don't have an immediate answer. I did an extensive google search but failed to come up with any relevant information. As a last resort, I submitted your question to the largest organization of French cuisine chefs in Japan.

http://www.french.ne.jp/

(Japanese only)

If I get a reply, I'll post it here.

Sorry, there has been no reply from them.

When will we hear your instructor's comments?

[Bux]

At this point, I have to believe your instructor was confusing Point with some other chef and I hope he's good enough to admit that to his pupils. It would be a small mistake to have a lapse of memory like that, and only a slightly larger one to have passed on that tidbit without checking, but his students shouldn't carry and spread around what appears to be misinformation. He owes that much to the community and it would repay our efforts.

[MaxH]

This is a truly fascinating thread. It is especially so for me for having recenently read Point's book, "Ma Cuisine". ... Unfortunately, the book was borrowed and I no longer have it.

I took a look in my copy and saw no mention of Japan in the bio sections. (Which are however anecdotal.)

[MobyP]

Found a picture in a book on Michelin of Mado Point (his wife) in Japan with Bocuse in 1968.

[chefzadi]

I just emailed L'institut Paul Bocuse regarding Fernand Point and Japan. I will report the response I receive. I would call them, but the time differences and my work schedule make it difficult. Maybe someone local to Lyon with a name that starts with an "L" can give it a stab.

[chefzadi]

I received a reply from the Bocuse institute. Nothing. They know nothing of this trip. But if they find anything they will be in contact later. But they say it's highly doubtful.

This is a wild goose chase, non?

[Carlsbad]

I think it appears highly doubtful there was a trip, but this was a fun discussion anyway. I just wonder what the instructor was thinking.

[Bux]

I suspect the instructor may have confused Point with Bocuse.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Hi Kind of followed a thread where a few people started discussing Fernand Point's influence on Cuisine, I thought it would make an interesting subject!

First I think we all agree that he was probably the first to highlight the ingredient, make the plate the stage for the produce, he also trained many off the others but is his influence as great as Escoffier etc?

But surely with the emphasis on the ingredient in modern cuisine, we all follow his philosophy? Which would make him the father of modern cuisine, yet you could argue Paul Bocuse took Point's philosophy and shouted the loudest putting another chefs opinions into the limelight, which makes Bocuse the greater chef(If you got The Great Chefs of France think this topic makes more sense)!

So let’s discuss what are people’s opinion?

Moderator's note: The Fernand Point in Japan topic has been merged to this one to enable further general discussion of Fernand Point and his influences.

[chefzadi]

I think of Escoffier as being singular. He documented recipes and systematized techniques and commercial kitchen systems. I don't know how long it would have taken someone else to do this or even realize that it is necessary at a certain level. A very long time? Never? This system doesn't seem to exist in other cuisines with such depth, even today. And even today this template is applied to other cuisines (Le Cordon Bleu has campuses around the world).

You are correct in your assessment of Fernand Point, but he is a highlight in existing trends or tendencies of his time. As is Bocuse.

Yes, yes The Great Chefs of France are writing from Gogol's undercoat.

[PassionateChefsDie]

I would agree but surely at the top of a pyramid is a singular! Therefore with the emphasis gone from a blended style of cookery very rich and extravagant, and now is about clarity of flavors and produce! Which was Point's style, are you saying that he's a movement? Therefore holds less status than Escoffier, is Bocuse the greater chef? For surely it wasn't just a trend? Prior to Point we were cooking very typically from a classic style, with no emphasis on clarity and produce. Flaws in produce could be masked by the Master Chefs.

[chefzadi]

Flaws in produce could be masked by the Master Chefs.

They are still masked by master chefs!

Surely a chef who is totally at the mercy of fickle mother nature is doomed. Produce that is not the absolute finest and freshest must be treated to bring out the best. Otherwise it is "shopping not cooking" and such a chef is helpless in between seasons or with a fish that is a day too old.

As for Point, I agree with you. But I also think that the ideas you mention were part of larger shifts/changes in the concept of restaurants, dining out and a growing Bourgeois. As for Bocuse nouvelle cuisine was happening and would have continued to happen with out him. Of course in different ways and his contributions are not taken lightly.

But Escoffier? He had a vision.

I want to continue this discussion in depth. But at the moment I really need to focus on my Algerian cookbook. After that it will be French cooking. I will begin with Lyon and the Beaujolais. Les Meres, Eugenie Brazier and of course Bocuse.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Does anyone else have a view, is Bocuse the greater chef, does anyone know what Bocuse thinks about it all? We all know his cuisine and for what he's done for the modern chef was ground breaking! You could link thread about Promo work, quite shocked that no one has mentioned him in the thread! For surely with out him there wouldn't be a commercial chef we still would be an unknown person working behind the scenes. Is he the product of a movement or the voice or the movement? Who out of the modern chefs will go down in history, will Bocuse's influence outlive Point's? Who was the last person to move cookery to a new level! Why is Careme a greater chef than Point? Is Escoffier not just taking on Careme's work any way? the structure of the kitchen was there Careme had been trying to get better conditions for Chefs, surely the Gourmet writer has a lot to do with the reputation of a great chef, you could argue that Escoffier took Soyer's statement "Publicity is like the air we breath, if we have it not, we die" and applied it to the Savoy like no other Chef had before! Surely Soyer did more for the kitchen or even Rumford, how much influence did the gourmet writers of the time have was it not them that lifted Escoffier to a world status?

[chefzadi]

does anyone know what Bocuse thinks about it all?

I'm planning on finding out. I want to interview him for my book. If you have specific questions post them or pm them to me.

I want to interview him as soon as possible though.

[touaregsand]

Passionate Chef-

You're bringing up alot of ideas of what a great chef is.

Is Escoffier not just taking on Careme's work any way? the structure of the kitchen was there Careme had been trying to get better conditions for Chefs, surely the Gourmet writer has a lot to do with the reputation of a great chef, you could argue that Escoffier took Soyer's statement "Publicity is like the air we breath, if we have it not, we die" and applied it to the Savoy like no other Chef had before! Surely Soyer did more for the kitchen or even Rumford, how much influence did the gourmet writers of the time have was it not them that lifted Escoffier to a world status?

Yes Escoffier is a continuation of Careme. True the food writer has alot to do with how well known a chef's reputation is.

One of the greatest if not the greatest chef my husband has ever worked for or seen will most likely be never known. He did not have a PR machine and like most chefs he isn't a very good writer (I don't mean to disparage chefs, because the statement is like saying most painters aren't good writers) so this great chef won't be putting out his memoirs or a cookbook, given the chef's temperment ghostwriters would flee.

If we talk about greatness in terms of legacy Escoffier is pretty hard to beat. Safe to say that every single student in a Western style culinary school will learn about him and every single line cook is following the kitchen brigade system he developed. Escoffier's ideas will be refined but not replaced. Surely at the Bocuse culinary school they are using Escoffier's systems as well.

Which brings me to your question regarding Bocuse's influence outliving Point's. Bocuse has that big school with his name on it. Teaching is another way to 'feed' one's legacy. Not just at school but through mentoring which Point did. His legacy was continued chefs who worked under him and later became famous great chefs.

Simply put Escoffier wrote the book. How many chefs do you know that don't have a copy of it? Few probably cook anything from it, but that's a topic for another thread.

[PassionateChefsDie]

touaregsand-

Hi nice to get some one else involved, but in theory Escoffier just refined what was there, the parties where there but blurred! Also with Escoffier you had the influence of Curnonsky how much word was taken on this great food writers comments, and from the impression of the opening of the Savoy it was grand on no other scale. As for teaching according to my copy of The Cuisine of Paul Bocuse he calls Point his master, so many of the three star chefs from the 70's where trained by him or trained by others who had worked for him, to a certain extent his legacy still lives, how many of his Protégées are still working! As we accept that Points influence to a certain extent moved us away from the great book, as it was written for a time of much extravagance! He if not created it certainly enforced beliefs higher than any other chef at the time about clarity and the produce!

For chefzadi-

I think I would simplify it and just ask who he thought was the last Chef/Person to create an impact on catering as it is today? Who was the great chef of the 1900-2000?

[touaregsand]

I think that Escoffier himself would say he refined what was already there.

Bocuse also trained under Eugenie Brazier. The story is that he rode his bicycle up a mountain or something when he was 20.

Who was the great chef of the 1900-2000?

Hard to say one. More like a succession of chefs.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Me trying to find a few Refs, please correct me if some of my facts are wrong, Bocuse's father was Point Trained, Bise, Chapel being influenced by 2 of Point's chefs, Troisgros, Outheir, Thulier, Guerard may not of been formally trained by them yet the Troisgros's and Bocuse are the reason he persisted surely with these as friends he cant helped not being influenced! And from these we get so many of todays chefs surely for that reason alone he's done more than be part of a succession he was the source? As for his influence from Brazier I got it ref as 'concentrated on the more strictly traditional aspects of his art! Though I'm sure we could discuss cooking 2 star plus and criteria! I don’t believe that is it, just that he was a great teacher that he inspired many greats!

[PassionateChefsDie]

Hi All on expanding the subject with someone else they bought up these interesting points of veiws.

So there may be many "precursors" of Nouvelle Cuisine, not only Point, but I do not think this is very relevant because I do not really believe in "precursors", the history of cuisine is not linear

French cuisine did not begin showing an interest in clarity, purity and quality of ingredient just then. It had been doing so for centuries, only there were several styles of cuisine and the 70's chef just came out with this new style mostly inspired by their trips to Japan.

I do not believe in chefs very much either, I think they are overrated as actors of cuisine history.

As I have made my veiws and was interested in what others think on these points.

As Bocuse(Is he one of the Fathers?) said "One of the tenents of la Nouvelle Cuisine is that the food must keep it's own taste, making the most of the original flavour"

I dont believe that whilst we were using a strictly classic cuisine it dealt with clarity, purity or quality of the ingredients! Or that you can find another cuisine that does highlight the main ingredient, until Points influence. With out the great chefs what is the history of cuisine? Is it purely an expansion on peasent cookery?

Stef

[Ptipois]

PassionateChefsDie,

I'd be grateful to you if, when quoting a private message of mine (which I didn't intend to make public), 1. You warned me first, and 2. You quoted it so that the beginning and ending of the quote is clear to everybody.

Thanks.

Besides, you have asked me to participate further in this discussion, but I am not the right person to do so because I have reached the limits of what I can say on the subject within this very thread. I don't share your passion for the history of cuisine as seen through the history of chefs. I do not think chefs are that important. They are not cuisine, they are only a part of it.

That being, I do not believe Nouvelle Cuisine could be traced to one single event or even one single chef. Start an archaeology of Nouvelle Cuisine and you'll pick up many tracks and end up at the Neolithic, as in any archaeology worthy of the name. However, that the phenomenon in itself started in the 70's under certain circumstances is a fact.