Brining

[kpurvis]

Sorry, I tried to reply to the cider question earlier, but it disappeared. So, my apologies if this answer appears twice: On the cider, I should have been more specific. I meant fresh cider. In my part of the world -- North Carolina -- there are apple orchards that still make fresh cider, so I usually buy four or five quart jugs every falls and throw them in the freezer. Of course, that also gets into the issue of unpasteurized fresh cider. I travel to the mountains to get it from a farmer I know. I've spent enough time on his land and around his equipment to know his standards, so I use his fresh cider without qualms. If you aren't that lucky, pasteurized cider would work. And, as noted, in a pinch I've used good-quality apple juice.

[Wilfrid]

Thanks for that.  As far as New York goes, I have certainly seen fresh cider at various green markets.

[col klink]

I envy you kpurvis. I grew up in Michigan and almost every fall my folks would take me to apple orchards and not only would we pick our own fresh apples, but get the most fantastic fresh cider. Now that I live in Seattle, none of the stores in my area carry anything fresh.

Oh wait, Washington has one of the largest apple crops in the country on the other side of the mountains in Eastern Washington. Guess I'm too lazy to drive a couple of hours these days. Where the hell are my folks now when I truly need them?

[Huevos del Toro]

There's a good treatment on brining at:

www.bbq-porch.org/brining00.asp

[g.johnson]

The question of what brining actually does came up on another thread.

I’m puzzled. The usual explanation is that osmosis draws the liquid into the meat. However, osmosis is a process by which a solvent moves across a membrane so as to equalize concentrations of a solute on either side. In the case of brining, you’d think that the concentration of solute (salt) would be greater in the brining solution than the meat and that therefore water (the solvent) should leave the meat cells. If that is the case, the only explanation I can think of for the increase in ‘juiciness’ of the meat is that the loss of water causes some tenderising chemical change in the meat. This explanation is consistent with the preservative effects of brine since the chemical changes that tenderize the meat would also kill bacteria.

Any thoughts?

[Dave the Cook]

The question of what brining actually does came up on another thread.

I’m puzzled. The usual explanation is that osmosis draws the liquid into the meat. However, osmosis is a process by which a solvent moves across a membrane so as to equalize concentrations of a solute on either side. In the case of brining, you’d think that the concentration of solute (salt) would be greater in the brining solution than the meat and that therefore water (the solvent) should leave the meat cells. If that is the case, the only explanation I can think of for the increase in ‘juiciness’ of the meat is that the loss of water causes some tenderising chemical change in the meat. This explanation is consistent with the preservative effects of brine since the chemical changes that tenderize the meat would also kill bacteria.

Any thoughts?

I am not convinced that the perception of juiciness is not a psycholocigal and physiological reaction to the improved seasoning. This doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

However, is it possible that there is some sort of retention effect associated with elevated salt levels? In other words, if you get the salt across the cell membrane, can it sort of "lock" itself in? The absolute quantity of liquid in the cells would not change from pre-brining to post-brining, but brining would allow the cells to retain more liquid through the cooking process.

[JAZ]

The question of what brining actually does came up on another thread.

I’m puzzled. The usual explanation is that osmosis draws the liquid into the meat. However, osmosis is a process by which a solvent moves across a membrane so as to equalize concentrations of a solute on either side. In the case of brining, you’d think that the concentration of solute (salt) would be greater in the brining solution than the meat and that therefore water (the solvent) should leave the meat cells. If that is the case, the only explanation I can think of for the increase in ‘juiciness’ of the meat is that the loss of water causes some tenderising chemical change in the meat. This explanation is consistent with the preservative effects of brine since the chemical changes that tenderize the meat would also kill bacteria.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, this was very counterintuitive for me too, until I read Shirley Corriher's explanation.

The mistake you're making (and the one I made too) is in thinking that the concentration of salt is higher in the brine than in the meat. But that's not the case. The "free liquid" in meat (i.e., the water that's not bound by the proteins and held inside the cells) is actually very concentrated with dissolved substances, including salts. So the brine flows into the meat.

However, the salt does also work in another way: it actually "denatures" some of the protein in meats, which increases the ability of the proteins to absorb water and also makes it slightly more tender. I'm sorry I'm not more specific here, but I lost my copy of Fine Cooking magazine where she describes that aspect. Her book only talks about the osmosis.

[Bond Girl]

This is quite interesting. I have a recipe for cured tuna, which requires you to first smother the tuna in a mixture of salt and sugar, then you cook it for 2-3 hours in a shiver, covered in olive oil with onions, garlic and a bunch of herbs. I'm wondering if you can do the same thing by brining. (ie. use water instead of oil) Any thoughts?

[g.johnson]

The mistake you're making (and the one I made too) is in thinking that the concentration of salt is higher in the brine than in the meat. But that's not the case. The "free liquid" in meat (i.e., the water that's not bound by the proteins and held inside the cells) is actually very concentrated with dissolved substances, including salts. So the brine flows into the meat.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[JAZ]

This is quite interesting.  I have a recipe for cured tuna, which requires you to first smother the tuna in a mixture of salt and sugar, then you cook it for 2-3 hours in a shiver, covered in olive oil with onions, garlic and a bunch of herbs.  I'm wondering if you can do the same thing by brining.  (ie. use water instead of oil)  Any thoughts?

The osmosis caused by a salt rub is opposite that in brining. Rubbing salt on the outside of a piece of meat or fish does draw out the moisture, unlike brining. So brining doesn't take the place of curing.

[Dave the Cook]

However, the salt does also work in another way: it actually "denatures" some of the protein in meats, which increases the ability of the proteins to absorb water and also makes it slightly more tender. I'm sorry I'm not more specific here, but I lost my copy of Fine Cooking magazine where she describes that aspect. Her book only talks about the osmosis.

Right. This is what I was after. Thanks, Janet

As I recall, once heat is applied, the proteins coagulate in structures that are more net-like than they were originally, and this traps the moisture.

And now my feeble brain recalls that I myself have already been through this: here.

[g.johnson]

This is quite interesting.  I have a recipe for cured tuna, which requires you to first smother the tuna in a mixture of salt and sugar, then you cook it for 2-3 hours in a shiver, covered in olive oil with onions, garlic and a bunch of herbs.  I'm wondering if you can do the same thing by brining.  (ie. use water instead of oil)  Any thoughts?

Smothering a piece of fish with salt will draw moisture out of the fish, since the concentration of salt will be much greater outside than in. The recipe is going to produce a sort of confit and I’m not sure what the purpose of the salt is, other than seasoning. But I don’t think brining would produce an equivalent result.

Edit: Right, "cured tuna". That's what the salt is about.

Edited February 7, 2003 by g.johnson (log)

[Bond Girl]

Jaz, do you think the method of brining will apply to a sturdy fish like Tuna or Salmon?

[tommy]

g. it f*cking works. how, i don't care.

[Varmint]

Then what happens when you roast a piece of fish in a salt crust, as Tom Colicchio does?

[guajolote]

Has anyone ever tried brining beef? lamb? veal?

[tommy]

Then what happens when you roast a piece of fish in a salt crust, as Tom Colicchio does?

the salt isn't in solution. it probably has little affect on on anything, other than providing some salt to the exterior, and forming a shell that might hold in moisture.

regards,

faux scientific bastard.

[col klink]

Has anyone ever tried brining beef? lamb? veal?

Brined beef = corned beef. In the next week or two I'm going to corn my first brisket, it's going to be fun!

[Varmint]

Has anyone ever tried brining beef? lamb? veal?

Brined beef = corned beef. In the next week or two I'm going to corn my first brisket, it's going to be fun!

Then he's going to smoke it. Then he's going to send some to me. Then he's going to make bacon. Then he's going to send some to me.

Naa naa na naa naaaa.

[g.johnson]

Then what happens when you roast a piece of fish in a salt crust, as Tom Colicchio does?

the salt isn't in solution. it probably has little affect on on anything, other than providing some salt to the exterior, and forming a shell that might hold in moisture.

regards,

faux scientific bastard.

I'm with Tommy on this one. And I'm a real scientific bastard.

[FoodMan]

Has anyone ever tried brining beef? lamb? veal?

You can brine pretty much anything and add whatever flavors you want.

FM

[Matt Seeber]

forming a shell that might hold in moisture.

baddabing

[tommy]

You can brine pretty much anything and add whatever flavors you want.

ooo. open for debate. many suggest that anything other than salt and sugar won't make its way into the meat. i'm with them. if you want flavor, add it during the cooking process. brining is a chemical reaction of sorts that loosens up protein strands, and adds a bit of salt of course. that's my theory at least.

[Dave the Cook]

You can brine pretty much anything and add whatever flavors you want.

ooo. open for debate. many suggest that anything other than salt and sugar won't make its way into the meat. i'm with them. if you want flavor, add it during the cooking process. brining is a chemical reaction of sorts that loosens up protein strands, and adds a bit of salt of course. that's my theory at least.

Only water-soluble compounds will get past the cell walls. Anything else you add would act as a marinade -- not the same thing.

Edited February 7, 2003 by Dave the Cook (log)

[Matt Seeber]

hummm...

if i make salt water taste like bay leaf and put a pork chop in it for 24 hours, will the pork chop taste like salted tap water or salted bay leaf tap water?