Brining

[FoodMan]

hummm...

if i make salt water taste like bay leaf and put a pork chop in it for 24 hours, will the pork chop taste like salted tap water or salted bay leaf tap water?

It will defenitly taste like salted bay leaf water . So it is not just Salt but as was mentioned anything that dissolves/inffuses in water (mint, allspice, mollasses,....). So Sorry Tommy this is not open for debate

FM

Edited February 7, 2003 by FoodMan (log)

[g.johnson]

Only water-soluble compounds will get past the cell walls. Anything else you add would act as a marinade -- not the same thing.

A pedant writes....

Depending on the size of the flavor molecule, it probably won't get past the cell membrane -- cell's don't let any old stuff in. However, it will lodge in the spaces between the cells and that'll be good enough.

[Dave the Cook]

In practice, pretty much only salt and sugar end up flavoring the interior of the meat. If you brine a pork loin roast, then cook it and excise a bite from the center, you'll find that herbs, spices and oils don't seem to get inside.

[tommy]

In practice, pretty much only salt and sugar end up flavoring the interior of the meat. If you brine a pork loin roast, then cook it and excise a bite from the center, you'll find that herbs, spices and oils don't seem to get inside.

that dave guy is one smart fella.

again, the brining process, for many, isn't about adding flavor. it's about altering the texture (via losening protien strands) of the meat.

[col klink]

And seasoning the inside of the meat.

[tommy]

And seasoning the inside of the meat.

[Jinmyo]

How about mustard powder in the brine? I think it does flavour the meat a bit.

[gknl]

How about mustard powder in the brine? I think it does flavour the meat a bit.

Sounds like time for a double-blind controlled experiment. Can we do it at your place?

[tommy]

we really do need an experiment on this. however, i'll again submit that any flavor that you want to add to the dish can be done during the cooking process as you normally would (or are all brined dishes lacking in flavor).

but i suppose it wouldn't hurt to add some stuff other than salt/sugar to the water every now and again.

[Jinmyo]

And it certainly doesn't hurt to brine with cider or citrus juices as well.

[tommy]

And it certainly doesn't hurt to brine with cider or citrus juices as well.

but only if you think the acidity won't have an adverse affect on the flesh of the meat of that time.

[Jinmyo]

That's right. Orange juice works well in a brine for pork belly for example, but not for chicken.

[Jim Dixon]

But just be anal about usage, brine means salt + water...so the acid bath isn't technically brine.

Jim

ps: am I actually agreeing with tommy?

[FoodMan]

herbs, spices and oils don't seem to get inside.

Again I will be anal and decalre this as both true and wrong. If you just mix some salt, allspice, sugar and water then the brined meat will taste like salted sweet water. However if you boil the mixture, cool it and THEN brine the meat it will be flavored with allspice even in the center. So if it is soluble in water (sugar/salt/molasses) or infused (herbs/spices) it will flavor the meat by osmosis or by getting lodged in between the cells like g. johnson said

Depending on the size of the flavor molecule, it probably won't get past the cell membrane -- cell's don't let any old stuff in. However, it will lodge in the spaces between the cells and that'll be good enough.

Oils on the other hand have no way of making it inside since they will not dissolve in water so they have no place in a brine.

FM

edited to add quote.

Edited February 8, 2003 by FoodMan (log)

[Kim WB]

Had some time to really PLAN a meal tonight, and so put a little chicken in brine at about 1pm, stuck it in the oven at 5...somehow neglected to notice that the oven was set on 475..too hot.....came home ( chicken was not unattended, teen attached to computer mouse was upstairs in case of major flames!) an hour and fifteen minutes later, to blackened wings and what looked like overcooked chicken. ( temp was already to 179!) I assumed the worst, and got started on some chicken cutlets instead...pulled the bird out, figured it would be an ingredient in soup or add enough mayo to a salad to give it some moisture. Picked at it a bit as it was resting..woah! moist, flavorful..I am convinced the brine saved this bird.

[col klink]

I just brined a bird for roasting over about 48 hours. The breasts came out perfect but the drumsticks came out a little too salty but it wasn't bad at all. I'm very happy with 24 hours for brining but as little as 4 or 5 hours is just fine for a whole bird.

Of course this is assuming 1 cup Kosher salt to 1 gallon water.

[Stone]

I want to brine 3 butts for smoking Friday night. (Gotta love the Atkins diet.) There's no way they'll fit in the fridge. Odd's are the weather outside will get above 60 degrees. Any ideas?

[Dave the Cook]

Rotate a bunch of those blue-ice packs inside a large cooler. Or your bathtub.

[Stone]

Ahhh. The old "ice in a plastic bag trick." Damn, you're a smart one. Thanks.

(And it's probably best that no food ever get too close to my bathtub.)

Edited August 28, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Dave the Cook]

. . . it's probably best that no food ever get too close to my bathtub.

Well, if you had invited me, I wouldn't have suggested it.

[ronnie_suburban]

I want to brine 3 butts for smoking Friday night.  (Gotta love the Atkins diet.)  There's no way they'll fit in the fridge.  Odd's are the weather outside will get above 60 degrees.  Any ideas?

Way to go Stone! Are you going to wrap them in bacon too?

=R=

[Ruth]

the salt isn't in solution.  it probably has little affect on on anything, other than providing some salt to the exterior, and forming a shell that might hold in moisture.

Required reading: Judy Rogers' "Zuni Café Cookbook", p.p. 35-38 - 'The practice of salting early".

I wish I could quote it here but that would be an infringement of copyright. It is the best new cook book in years. I use her brining cure for magret which can often be tough but emerges tender and flavorful after Judy's cure. Today I have just pre-salted a couple of rib veal chops after reading her theory that although salt initially brings out the juices from a piece of meat these juices will then be reabsorbed to flavor and tenderize the meat.

[jackal10]

According to a recent news article injecting sodium bicarbonate into pork does wonders.

I wondered if adding some baking soda to the brine would have any effect.

On the otherhand I would worry that the alkaline environment might encourage growth of botulism.

Thoughts, opinions, any one tried adding baking soda?

[guajolote]

According to a recent news article injecting sodium bicarbonate into pork does wonders.

I wondered if adding some baking soda to the brine would have any effect.

On the otherhand I would worry that the alkaline environment might encourage growth of botulism.

Thoughts, opinions, any one tried adding baking soda?

I think there was a dicsussion about this a couple of months ago pertaining to Chinese food. I believe that others decided that it did tenderize the meat, but also made it mushy.

[Stone]

Way to go Stone!  Are you going to wrap them in bacon too?

=R=

The wisdom here (from Klink, et al.) is that bacon wont do much for a butt. The butt has enough of its own fat to keep it moist, and 10 hours in the smoker will add enough flavor.