China Salmon

[RonC]

Patrick,

As I'm sure you know, the reference you site "The Top Ten Unfounded Health Scares of 2004: PCBs in Salmon and Cancer" came from the American Council on Science and Health. I don't claim to know Truth (capital T) on ACSM; however, I do know that it has a reputation for often/usually siding with industries and corporations. They're an example of why, unfortunately, we need to always try to find out the source and the dollars of research "findings."

One of my all-time favorite sayings comes to mind "Follow those who are seeking the truth. Run from those who think they've found it."

Ron

Yes, I did read the reference and thanked you for it. Actually, the issue, for me, isn't the level of omega 3s, but rather the amount of PCBs and other toxins that seem from the data I've read to be higher in farm-raised. Here are three references for those interested.

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Yeah this issue got a lot of attention in 2004 thanks to an Environmental Working Group report and tons of scaremongering headlines. But the science to justify a health concern simply isnt there.

Yes, PCBs do seem to be slightly higher in farmed versus wild salmon. But the good news is that in both farmed and wild salmon, the content of PCBs are extremely low. The average PCB content of farmed salmon was reported to be 27 parts per billion, which is about 1% of the allowable limit set by the FDA, which is itself extremely conservative (see below on the HERP ranking for PCBs).

To put that into some perspective, that is much higher than the concentration in wild salmon, but only about 4 times higher than the concentration in beef, so for someone like myself who eats beef far more often than salmon, by far my largest PCB source is beef. In fact, for the "average american consumer," the yearly-per capita PCB exposure from beef is 2016 picograms TEQ, from milk is 756, from poultry is 386, and from farmed salmon is 178 (2004 data). So, supposing consumption of farmed salmon tripled in this country, salmon would still only account for a small portion of the annual per capita load of PCBs. From PCBs and Farmed Salmon: Facts to Go with the Fiction

Ironically enough, one of the reasons farmed salmon have higher PCB is that they have more fat, including more heart-healthy omega-3s. Fatter fish will have more fat-soluble compounds in them.

Another point that should be mentioned is that overal dietary PCB exposure from all sources have been dropping dramatically since PCBs were banned. In fact, the dietary exposure to PCBs dropped 20-fold between 1978 and 1986 (see references in Gold et al, 2002, p. 64). Whatever risk dietary PCBs pose to the average consumer, that risk has been dropping enormously.

Lastly, we should compare the supposed carcinogenic risk of dietary PCBs to other natural and synthetic compounds in the diet. To do that I need to introduce the HERP index (which I also referred to on another thread).

The HERP index is a ranked index of various carcinogenic hazards. The ranking is straightforward. It reflects the ratio of the dose humans recieve in mg per kg of body weight per day to the lowest dose in mg/kg/day that has been shown to be carcinogenic in animal tests. So, for instance, if the 'average consumer' gets 10mg per kg of body weight per day of chemical X, and the rodent tests show that chemical X causes cancer in rodents at doses of 100mg/kg/day, then the HERP rank for that chemical is 10%. The methodology is described in detail in Gold et al's papers on the subject. Gold et al's paper is available here. I should probably also point out that Gold and coauthor Bruce Ames are considered to be two of the world's leading toxicologists, particularly with respect to environmental carcinogens.

PCBs are actually near the very bottom of the HERP index, with a value of 0.00008%. That means that the average consumer recieves about 0.00008% of the lowest dose shown to increase cancer risk in animal studies (Gold et al, p. 82). This compares very, very favorably to many natural carcinogens present in our diets. For instance, caffeic acid from coffee has a HERP of 0.1%, caffeic acid from lettuce has a HERP of 0.04%, and hydrazine from mushrooms has a rank of 0.02%.

Bottom line for me is I am much, much more concerned with being struck by lightening than I am about getting cancer from PCBs in salmon.

Some links:

The Top Ten Unfounded Health Scares of 2004: PCBs in Salmon and Cancer

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[kiliki]

I'd never heard of Chinese salmon, and, being curious, googled it. I found the website of a company that exports the product around the world, and they specifically say that the salmon is sent to them from other countries, mostly the US, and that the product is either farmed Atlantic salmon (bleh) or Chum salmon (double bleh). But, no matter what your feelings on those fish (I can afford to be picky, since I live in Seattle), Chinese salmon may just be a well traveled version of the same stuff you could have bought at the store.

Chinese salmon

[RonC]

Hmmmm. interesting. It's labeled "wild". Maybe that just means they weren't able to tame it.

Ron

I'd never heard of Chinese salmon, and, being curious, googled it. I found the website of a company that exports the product around the world, and they specifically say that the salmon is sent to them from other countries, mostly the US, and that the product is either farmed Atlantic salmon (bleh) or Chum salmon (double bleh). But, no matter what your feelings on those fish (I can afford to be picky, since I live in Seattle), Chinese salmon may just be a well traveled version of the same stuff you could have bought at the store.

Chinese salmon

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[Sam Salmon]

Ron C-there's thread I started here about Farmed Atlantics being marketed as 'Wild' even in BC where I live.

Since you live 'far from the action' I'll repeat myself on this issue.

Salmon farms blanket the coast in many place here in BC-I know many people in small coastal communities who work on them.I have never ever met anyone who would eat the product they are paid to raise.

Food for thought for those of you who are thinking folks.

[kiliki]

The wild could also mean the chum-no one farm raises that.

Also-I'm curious-where do you live where those are your only options?

Edited March 19, 2005 by kiliki (log)

[RonC]

Smiling here - corn fields or Illinois. Actually, we could drive about 50 miles and get fresh, but ...

Hey, maybe someone in, say, the Seatlle area could .... probably not.

Ron

The wild could also mean the chum-no one farm raises that.

Also-I'm curious-where do you live where those are your only options?

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[Patrick S]

Patrick,

As I'm sure you know, the reference you site "The Top Ten Unfounded Health Scares of 2004: PCBs in Salmon and Cancer" came from the American Council on Science and Health.

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Actually, every one of the substantive claims I made was backed up by peer-reviewed scientific research, cited in the Gold et al paper.

I don't claim to know Truth (capital T) on ACSM; however, I do know that it has a reputation for often/usually siding with industries and corporations. They're an example of why, unfortunately, we need to always try to find out the source and the dollars of research "findings."

←

Again, I did not rely on ACSH for a single one of the substantive claims I made regarding PCBs in salmon. Having said that, I read ACSH all the time, and I can't think of a single instance where they ignored facts in order to take a pro-industry stance on an issue. And I can think of some industries --like tobacco-- that they have bashed mercilessly.

One of my all-time favorite sayings comes to mind "Follow those who are seeking the truth. Run from those who think they've found it."

Ron

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I'm not sure why our discussion of PCBs in salmon brings this quote to mind, especially since I get the impression that you think you've found the truth about farmed salmon, to wit, that it lacks omega3's (which was shown to be false), or that it has a dangerously high concentration of PCBs (which is also false). But since we're exchanging quotes, here's one of my favorites: "The truth will set you free. But first it will p*** you off."

Cheers!

Edited March 21, 2005 by Patrick S (log)

[RonC]

Patrick,

We probably should just end this. I sense you're getting somewhat emotional about the issue. However, I NEVER expressed explicit concern about omega3s. I didn't go back and re-read the post, but someone else (maybe you) brought up that issue. My initial question was an honest one; i.e., which holds greater (if any) health risk - farm-raised salmon or wild salmon imported from China. Sadly, this question wound up being highjacked into other issues.

Peace,

Ron

Patrick,

As I'm sure you know, the reference you site "The Top Ten Unfounded Health Scares of 2004: PCBs in Salmon and Cancer" came from the American Council on Science and Health.

←

Actually, every one of the substantive claims I made was backed up by peer-reviewed scientific research, cited in the Gold et al paper.

I don't claim to know Truth (capital T) on ACSM; however, I do know that it has a reputation for often/usually siding with industries and corporations. They're an example of why, unfortunately, we need to always try to find out the source and the dollars of research "findings."

←

Again, I did not rely on ACSH for a single one of the substantive claims I made regarding PCBs in salmon. Having said that, I read ACSH all the time, and I can't think of a single instance where they ignored facts in order to take a pro-industry stance on an issue. And I can think of some industries --like tobacco-- that they have bashed mercilessly.

One of my all-time favorite sayings comes to mind "Follow those who are seeking the truth. Run from those who think they've found it."

Ron

←

I'm not sure why our discussion of PCBs in salmon brings this quote to mind, especially since I get the impression that you think you've found the truth about farmed salmon, to wit, that it lacks omega3's (which was shown to be false), or that it has a dangerously high concentration of PCBs (which is also false). But since we're exchanging quotes, here's one of my favorites: "The truth will set you free. But first it will p*** you off."

Cheers!

←

[Patrick S]

Patrick,

We probably should just end this. I sense you're getting somewhat emotional about the issue. However, I NEVER expressed explicit concern about omega3s. I didn't go back and re-read the post, but someone else (maybe you) brought up that issue. My initial question was an honest one; i.e., which holds greater (if any) health risk - farm-raised salmon or wild salmon imported from China. Sadly, this question wound up being highjacked into other issues.

Peace,

Ron

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Ron,

I'm not 'emotional' at all, and I apologize if I've come across that way. I am very concerned, however, that people will reduce their consumption of or stop eating heart-healthy salmon out of an unfounded fear of cancer, or due to the completely false belief that it is deficient in omega3 fatty acids.

I know you didn't bring up the issue of omega3's. However, when I pointed out that farmed salmon is as high if not higher in omega3s than wild salmon, you questioned "WHO funded the research," and stated that that conclusion "seems to fly in the face of most that I've read in recent months and years." You didn't bring the issue up, but you very clearly expressed your skepticism on the matter.

You're initial question was indeed an honest one. And its a question that I think can be and has been answered -- farmed salmon is just as healthy as wild salmon.

[RonC]

Ahhhh, communication is so tough. I ALWAYS try to look at the funding source for claims. This stems from my experimental psych background where we showed how easy -- and unconsciously -- researchers can bias results. It's a very subtle phenomenon and does not mean that data are intentionally fudged.

Ron

Patrick,

We probably should just end this. I sense you're getting somewhat emotional about the issue. However, I NEVER expressed explicit concern about omega3s. I didn't go back and re-read the post, but someone else (maybe you) brought up that issue. My initial question was an honest one; i.e., which holds greater (if any) health risk - farm-raised salmon or wild salmon imported from China. Sadly, this question wound up being highjacked into other issues.

Peace,

Ron

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Ron,

I'm not 'emotional' at all, and I apologize if I've come across that way. I am very concerned, however, that people will reduce their consumption of or stop eating heart-healthy salmon out of an unfounded fear of cancer, or due to the completely false belief that it is deficient in omega3 fatty acids.

I know you didn't bring up the issue of omega3's. However, when I pointed out that farmed salmon is as high if not higher in omega3s than wild salmon, you questioned "WHO funded the research," and stated that that conclusion "seems to fly in the face of most that I've read in recent months and years." You didn't bring the issue up, but you very clearly expressed your skepticism on the matter.

You're initial question was indeed an honest one. And its a question that I think can be and has been answered -- farmed salmon is just as healthy as wild salmon.

←

[Patrick S]

Ahhhh, communication is so tough. I ALWAYS try to look at the funding source for claims. This stems from my experimental psych background where we showed how easy -- and unconsciously -- researchers can bias results. It's a very subtle phenomenon and does not mean that data are intentionally fudged.

Ron

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Not to take the thread even further off topic, but I think its pretty obvious that unconscious biases have very little oppurtunity to unconsciously skew analytical data. Gas chromatograph reading or whatever says what it says, regardless of what one would like it to say.

With a background in experimental pych, I'm sure you release that unconscious biases come in many varieties, and have a variety of motivations, and are hardly limited to financial interests. To be sure, groups like, say, the Environmental Working Group, that issued the scaremongering and misleading report about PCBs in farmed salmon that you referenced, have strong ideological and financial biases. For instance, they recieve funding from organic producers and thus have as much of a financial interest in bashing conventional agriculture as Monsanto has in promoting it.

And beyond that, I can point you to concrete examples of how that bias has been expressed in the form of shoddy data and/or outright deception about the dangers of food produced by conventional agriculture. To give one fairly typical example, Todd Hettenbach of the Environmental Working Group, was paraphrased in 1999 as saying that "just a bite or two of an apple, peach or pear" that had been treated with methyl parathion could "cause dizziness, nausea and blurred vision" in a child. But he just made that up. Laura Plunkett, a neurotoxicologist who consults for EPA, said that was "totally off the wall," and that "nless it were 100% soaked, absolutely dripping with methyl parathion, there's no way that a few bites of fruit would be a problem" ('Fear of Fruit,' Wall Street Journal, February 25, 1999).

My only point is that it would be extremely naive to think that anyone is free from biases and preconceptions. And certainly it would is odd to me that anyone would accept uncritically a report from EWG, which has plain ideological and financial biases, while showing such suspicion of simple USDA analytical data! You can see more about EWG, their biases and financial motivations at ActivistCash.com.

Take care, Ron!

And don't fear the farmed salmon, yall!

[RonC]

<<My only point is that it would be extremely naive to think that anyone is free from biases and preconceptions.>>

My point exactly. End of my posts to this thread.

Ron

[PCL]

A balanced diet is very important. If you eat a little of everything, and not too much of anything, you should be okay.

Everyone agree? Come on, be nice and shake hands, have a cuddle, and have some teriyaki salmon cutlets "on me"!!!...

Happy Easter Egg Hunting Dudes!!

[nuppe]

I always feel well and healthy after eating farmed salmon. But then I'm norwegian and might not have the right to speak. (then much of the criticism towards farmed salmon comes from regions protecting their relatively small, original wild salmon trade towards the "threat". You cannot doubt that the Omega 3-content in farmed salmon is high, and I know two reports on the benefits on people with heart disease. Then it's good to focus on pcb's and other marine toxics. They are actually marine;also todays farmed salmon have their main feed from the sea. It is important to work with reducing the level in the sea - and in the salmon, but over all I am convinced that eating the fish with the OMega 3 and all the other good stuff is godd for brain and blood and body.

I recently visited the larges fish market in China(in Guangzhou) There was not a single chinese salmon there - only norwegian and maybe some scottish. To my knowledge China imports most of their salmon, but they are actually trying to farm the fish in northern China now.