Wine Markups in NYC

[slkinsey]

One problem with the current formula is that those who don't drink wine aren't paying for their share of the food.

This is, I think, a big part of the problem. Much like with rent control, it's a system whereby some people pay more and cover costs associated with someone else. I'm not saying that it's a good system. I'd rather have a system like they have at Landmarc. But... there has to be a reason why the system is the way it is. Most likely it is because restaurants have found that it's easier to make the profits they need to make with this kind of price structure. This is to say that they have considered bumping up the price of the food and reducing the price of the wine, and have decided that it isn't the right choice. Think about it: don't you think it would hurt, e.g., Daniel's business if the five course prix fixe were $200 instead of $125?

Most likely the answer is that people wouldn't be so willing to pay that kind of markup. Maybe it's because they're more used to paying high prices for wine, or maybe it's because people undervalue food because of the historical pricing practices. It's one thing for Landmarc to charge $18 for a plate of pasta instead of $15 so they can sell wine at low prices, but at the high end where you're talking about raising the food prices much higher in order to bring down the price of wine I think it wouldn't be so easy to do.

[emmapeel]

One pricing structure I've seen that made me happy as a diner, and perhaps made the restaurateur content also is a prix fixe, with or without complement of wine for each course, including dessert. I had this experience at Mark's Restaurant in the Mark Hotel. Ordinarly, I may order a glass or two, perhaps a bottle if I'm so inclined, but this structure encourages partaking in the Sommelier's offers. My assumption is that they sell more wine, and the markup is spread proportionately among the diners. They also have scheduled dinners with tastings, at a cost I find quite palatable. It is not Per Se, Jean Georges, or ADNY, and I am not suggesting that it is, however, for those of us not inclined financially or otherwise, to pay $200 and up for a special bottle of wine, it's pleasurable. The menu is limited; it is a hotel, but what they do they do well. Can fine restaurants do the same and continue to be profitable? If Daniel's Prix Fixe with wine was priced at $175 or $200, I would not hesitate.

Edited March 7, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[Bux]

You're correct in implying it's an established systen and that inertia will keep in running this way. Most owners are going to be reluctant to break the mold as long as the public is willing to put up with the current system. In a way this system works against those who don't drink if their complaints of discrimination are true. Perhaps it could be said they pay the price of not paying a fair price.

Interestingly enough I've found the wine prices at just about all of Danny Meyer's restaurants to be at least fairly priced and often enough rather well priced given the selection, service and the whole restaurant package, yet from those who don't drink, I rarely hear complaints that they're treated with less welcome arms.

[AK@Spicehouse]

Yowza, a thread I can relate to.. Add this to the formula.. When I sit down for dinner, with wife and guests, we are all usually quite hungry. An awaiting basket of bread, an amuse, a flat, needs to be buttered. While some restaurants are putting out hummus or other spreads, butter is the standby. My table of four will consume two/three sticks of butter during the meal, all added on bread or crackers or to smooth out potatoes. Bread cost is $2.00 plus for the table, while the butter has soared to $6.00 per pound for quality butter. To seat my group, $7.00 is immediately consumed. Add to that the linens we will soil that need to be cleaned in NYC. The glasses, plates etc that will be washed. Now the food cost, at the restaurants that are discussed on EGullet is huge. Good steak is still $9-$10 per pound, cut and trimmed. High end fish, $20 and up per ound after cleaning and dressing. And the waste, the loss, the stealing, etc.. It's amazing that a restaurant can eke out a living. Wine at 500% markup, if it is too high for you, then dont buy the wine. Cool water, some tea with lemon, cleanse the palette, enjoy the food. If you must drink wine, bite the bullet and respect the free market society we live in. Gripe about something like the damn french, who make the wine out of grapes that grow on a tree..

You're correct in implying it's an established systen and that inertia will keep in running this way. Most owners are going to be reluctant to break the mold as long as the public is willing to put up with the current system. In a way this system works against those who don't drink if their complaints of discrimination are true. Perhaps it could be said they pay the price of not paying a fair price.

Interestingly enough I've found the wine prices at just about all of Danny Meyer's restaurants to be at least fairly priced and often enough rather well priced given the selection, service and the whole restaurant package, yet from those who don't drink, I rarely hear complaints that they're treated with less welcome arms.

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[Bux]

AK@Spicehouse, I'm not sure I get your point in regard to the thread, or more specifically why you chose to quote my post for your reply.

[TrishCT]

I probably shouldn't even post a comment on this thread, because I am out of my league, but here goes. I follow these wine threads because I do like wine, but I don't get around much in the wine world.

I don't order wine out as often as I would like because I have gotten too many blah bottles based on waitstaffs' lousy rec's.

So my dining guests and I often enjoy a few cocktails apiece in lieu of wine. I feel the profit margin the restaurant makes on us is significant, and that even though we don't drink "wine" we do pay our fair share. In many places, I'd imagine that the bar, rather than the wine, makes the house more $$.

[robyn]

AK@Spicehouse, I'm not sure I get your point in regard to the thread, or more specifically why you chose to quote my post for your reply.

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I don't know why he quoted you - but I think his point was simply - if you think it's overpriced - don't buy it. No one's breaking your arm.

The main complaint my husband voices is when he trusts the staff recommendations for wine (and he always does in high end restaurants) - and they wind up serving him mediocre (or worse) wine. This happened to him both at Jean Georges (terrible bottle - just awful tasting stuff) and Per Se (several mediocre wines by the glass). But not at ADNY (terrific bottle). He can hardly ever remember the names of anything (and who can - with so many thousands and thousands of wines) - so he doesn't know if he's overpaying. He just knows what's good - and what isn't.

By the way - I agree with the recommendations about cocktails. We both usually have a martini before dinner. They are almost always a good value. I also recommend champagne (I don't drink still wine but I do like champagne). There are fewer bottles to remember - one acquires a general idea of that they cost - and one can pick a bottle one likes that one considers fairly priced. Robyn

[DutchMuse]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Some favorite BYOB places of mine off the top of my head:

Craft

Danny Meyer places--

Gramercy Tavern

Eleven Madison

Tabla/Bread Bar at Tabla

Blue Smoke

Le Zie

Montrachet

Per Se

Ruth's Chris

Keene's

Chanterelle

Artisinal

Biltmore Room

L'Impero

Again, these are just places I sometimes go and routinely BYOB. Lots of others...there are lists on the net you can find, but I vouch for these. Used to BYOB at Le Madri in Chelsea as well before it closed.

Edited March 8, 2005 by DutchMuse (log)

[docsconz]

To say that if one doesn't like the price of the wine, don't buy it, is I think missing the main point of much of the discussion here. I don't believe anyone here is saying that a restaurant shouldn't strive to be profitable or that it is unreasonable to mark-up wine or bar drinks. The question is how to do it most effectively so that the restaurant makes a profit and the consumers feel that they have been treated fairly, are happy and will continue to return. Most people are saying that there is indeed a line (not particularly thin) between a reasonable markup and an exorbitant one.

[winesonoma]

I probably shouldn't even post a comment on this thread, because I am out of my league, but here goes. I follow these wine threads because I do like wine, but I don't get around much in the wine world. 

I don't order wine out as often as I would like because I have gotten too many blah bottles based on waitstaffs' lousy rec's.

So my dining guests and I often enjoy a few cocktails apiece in lieu of wine.  I feel the profit margin the restaurant makes on us is significant, and that even though we don't drink "wine" we do pay our fair share.  In many places, I'd imagine that the bar, rather than the wine, makes the house more $$.

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2 Citadel Martini's at The Bombay Club in New Orleans, Over$25. Nice place. Citadel where I live $30 a bottle, in Montana at the State store $21.99. Wine was reasonable though with dinner. I guess it's all relative, but I hate to pay to much for cheap wine.

[Juanito]

Where does this idea that restaurants don't make money on the food come from? I've seen it here, and elsewhere, and I simply don't think it is true. To be sure, wine sales are a very effective way to boost check averages, and profitablility. Still, if the menu is priced correctly, the restaurant should make a profit even if not one diner orders wine.

The food cost in some dishes might be as high as 45%, but overall, it's probably between 35 and 40. If they serve lots of pasta, it's probably a hell of a lot lower. Labor, another 35 or 40 on the high side. The other crap comes out of the remainder, and if things are going right, there's 10% or so left over for the operator.

In working with operators costing out menus, I've never, ever had someone say, we're not making anything on this dish, but we'll make it up on wine sales. Not one time. Typically, we figure the cost of the ingredients on the plate, and divide by .3, and a buck or two to cover linens and bread and sides, and that's it.

Others, rather than divide, multiply by a factor of 3 or 4 (or even 5).

There's profit in the food. Now one might make the argument that it's not enough profit, and that's why we want to boost check averages by selling wine. Still, there's more than one way to skin a cat - sell fewer bottles at a high mark up, or more bottles at a lower mark up. I believe the latter method puts more dollars in the checkbook.

Of course, I don't own a restaurant.

[slkinsey]

Juanito, it's always interesting to talk with someone about all the things they have to figure in to the cost of a plate of food or a bottle of wine. Just to consider the costs that have to be covered for a plate of food:

• The price of the plate and the flatware, including replacement costs for breakage, theft, etc.
  
• The costs associated with the linens (napkins, tablecloth, etc.)
  
• The cost of the ingredients (the "food cost")
  
• Costs related to the premises (rent, electricity, heat, etc.)
  
• Labor (receptionist, wait staff, bus staff, cooks, dishwashers, cleaning staff, etc.)
  
• Costs related to the kitchen (purchase, maintenance and fueling of stoves, refrigeration, specialty equipment, etc. as well as cookware)
  

All of these things, and more, have to be paid by that plate of food you order. I'm not in a position to say what kinds of profits these restaurants make. But, if they're charging a 500% markup on wine and still squeaking by with maybe an 8% profit margin, this strongly suggests to me that some places are not making any profit on the food side. This will no doubt vary according to the price point of the restaurant and whatever their associated costs may be. Of course, a lot of the really high end restaurants (typically associated with an expensive hotel) don't make any profit at all.

[phaelon56]

I think the example of Landmarc that Sam pointed out earlier in the thread shows that a good balance can be achieved. Put a slightly higher price ($1 - $3 per entree) on entrees and accept, on average, a lower markup on wines than many other places charge. If wine sales are much stronger and this strategy achieves overall higher revenues, it becomes the rare case of the cliched "win-win" scenario. Customers are happier because they can order wine with dinner more often or more liberally without feeling gouged, the restaurant makes a larger overall profit and everyone wins.

As for this remark

There's profit in the food.

If there was no profit in food, specifically in the sit-down restaurant business (encompassing everything from moderate to high end dining), how would so many restaurants in "dry" towns like Rutherford NJ (where I lived until recently) survive and apparently prosper? Rutherford has a slew of restaurants ranging from lower end places like The Village Gourmet, mid level like Paisano's and Corrado's and high end such as Cafe Matisse. Alcohol cannot be sold by a restaurant and there are no bars but wine and liquors stores are allowed.

A few of these places have a separate on-site wine shop that will sell you the wine and allow you to bring it to the table (Village Gourmet has always been this way and Matisse added a wine shop about 2 - 3 years ago). Obviously the few places selling wine are making money on it and they all make a few $$ on corkage fees but food is where the real revenue and profit comes from in all of these restaurants. Granted... rents are lower than in Manhattan but it's still not cheap.

I agree that there's profit in food. The % of profit depends greatly on peripheral factors already mentioned but I disagree with the notion that there's no real money to be made on food and therefore excessive wine markups across the board are sensible. I won't go so far as to attribute the high failure rate of restaurants in NY and elsewhere to an inability to see the big picture (too many other factos are more significant) but high markups generate only hypothetical; profits until you actually sell the goods.

[touaregsand]

I know there is profit in food.

To clarify and contextualize my comments I am referring to a upper mid/lower high end restaurant in a bigger city with a chef that is also capable of successfully executing tasting/special menus at say $100 and up, up, up. Mostly because this is the sort of chef that I am married too. And this is the type of chef who can create perceived value even with lower end dishes. For instance $17-$19 for roast chicken for lunch with an out of the world sauce (a sort of combo demi-glace and jus), cost of food less than $3.00, best selling item with customers some who would come 3-4 times a week just for this. Highway robbery you say? I say, taste it and where else can you get this?

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Standard model for mark ups. Food x 3, wine x 4 minimum on average and more often than not more, sometimes much more. There's enough profit in food to keep a restaurant successfully running in the black with good/great monthly profits. But it's the wine/beverage sales and profits that will ensure a return on initial investment within a reasonable time frame. It's also possible to get "backdoor" specials when purchasing entry level wines. So the percieved markup may be 4 times, but the actual mark up is much higher. These are the types of wines that tend to turnover the most quickly.

The profits from food at such places keeps the Exec. Chef happy. The profit from wine/beverages keep the investors happy.

It's a bit disingenuous to claim food costs are sometimes as high as 45% (again I'm not talking about a restaurant in a smaller city where the mark ups might have to be lower). Even at the top tier restaurants this doesn't represent the average. If it did (which it most certainly does not), it would be a formula for a speedy bankruptcy. These sort of places are usually operating perilously close to the red or deeply in it. But that's another topic.

I won't go so far as to attribute the high failure rate of restaurants in NY and elsewhere to an inability to see the big picture (too many other factos are more significant) but high markups generate only hypothetical; profits until you actually sell the goods.

I have a few funnys to share regarding that.

[Felonius]

My experience as a wine director has been that only one in five customers will call in advance to ask if BYOB is allowed and if there is a corkage.  The other four will almost always complain when corkage (ours is only $20) is added to the bill.  One in eight will offer a taste to the staff and only one in nine will offer a taste to the sommelier or purchase another bottle from the list.

I understand BYOB (especially if its a rare bottle or one of special significance), but many hours have gone into the planning, purchase and organization of the list.  It is a very complicated process dealing with the law, suppliers, minimum order requirements, storage, training, owners etc etc.  BYOB is a bit of an insult in that regard (imagine the chef's response if you brought your own food--and I've seen it tried, kosher being the exception). 

I'm always dumbfounded by the customer who brings in a mediocre bottle, never extends a hand or greeting to myself or the steward on duty and then stiffs the wait staff who have been pouring, polishing and tending to their wine needs for the evening..........the norm.

Sommeliers love good wine.  Thats why we hold the jobs we do (God knows its not for the money or an easy life).  If a customer brings in something wonderful, I consider it a point of pride that he feels my restaurant is worthy of his treasure and in fairness, these customers almost always ask to meet me and offer a taste because they love wine as much as I do and want to chat about our common interest. 

They are just too few and far between.

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Thanks for your perspective on this. I'm sorry there are so many jerks out there that ruin it for those of us who love to share a great bottle of wine. Much of my wine knowledge has come from friendships struck up with sommeliers over the years. I would never have discovered a lot of the wines I now collect and drink if it wasn't for kind and generous folks like Olivier Flosse (former sommelier at Cafe Boulud).

I can understand that bringing a wine may be an insult to some in your profession. However, the only reason I'd bring a bottle would be because it's something very special and is not on the restaurant's list. Also, I just can't afford to buy a truly great bottle of wine at NYC markups. For example, I was perusing the list at Jean-Georges the other day and if I remember correctly, a bottle of 1982 La Mission Haut Brion was listed at $2600. That's way more than my budget will allow. However, even though I have some bottles of '82 LMHB left in my cellar, I wouldn't bring one to Jean-Georges because it's on their list. I do think it's rude to do that, and I always call ahead to inform a restaurant what I'm bringing to avoid this problem.

After the cold reception I received at Jean-Georges the one time I brought a bottle (a bottle of 1975 Pichon Lalande that had special significance to me as it was a gift from the winemaker's cave), I decided not to bother again. It also made me wonder why they even bother offering their $75 corkage if they're going to get their panties in a wad when people actually pay it.

[Felonius]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Some favorite BYOB places of mine off the top of my head:

Craft

Danny Meyer places--

Gramercy Tavern

Eleven Madison

Tabla/Bread Bar at Tabla

Blue Smoke

Le Zie

Montrachet

Per Se

Ruth's Chris

Keene's

Chanterelle

Artisinal

Biltmore Room

L'Impero

Again, these are just places I sometimes go and routinely BYOB. Lots of others...there are lists on the net you can find, but I vouch for these. Used to BYOB at Le Madri in Chelsea as well before it closed.

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Thanks DutchMuse for the list! I've brought bottles to several of these places, and I can say that the staff at Chanterelle is especially gracious about it (in thanks the sommelier and chef have gotten glasses to enjoy from my bottles).

[Felonius]

I may be beating a dead horse here, but....

I was ticked off the other night for several reasons, not just the 300-400% markup (which seems to be fairly standard in NYC these days).  I was never visited by a sommelier, the list had few bottles under $100 that I would even bother drinking at their retail price, and nearly everything was from the 2000 vintage or younger.  It was a case of looking at a list and having to choose the lesser of evils, while still forking out nearly $100 for wine.  There was no value added by their wine service in my opinion.  There are many NYC restaurants guilty of this same offense.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pontificate on the food cost issue discussed in the thread, but I can give a few examples of how I think the food/wine should be done.

The most important piece of the puzzle is having a truly knowledgeable sommelier who will spend time with customers helping them select the right bottle for their budget and meal.  Another factor is creating a list with interesting selections at all price points.  All too often, I see lists with plenty of interesting bottles at the top, and nothing but plonk at the bottom.  It's almost as if they want to punish customers who can't or won't spend $100 or more a bottle.  There are plenty of great inexpensive yet interesting wines made today, so there's no excuse for any restaurant with high aspirations to force mediocre wines on the lower end customers. 

Three restaurants that have exemplary wine programs in my opinion are Cafe Boulud, Babbo and Veritas.  They all come at it from different angles, but all provide the customer with real value at their price points. 

Cafe Boulud is an expensive place with a lot of very wealthy regular customers, yet they manage to have plenty of good selections around the $50 range.  They also have wines that range into the thousands, and I know for a fact they sell a lot of wine in both categories.  Cafe Boulud also has (or at least had, as they're currently looking for a sommelier I believe) a sommelier who searched the planet for truly exceptional wines.  A lot of what's on their list is not commercially available.  Also, their staff was highly knowledgeable, and seldom if ever made a recommendation that was not spot on (and when they did, they had no problems taking the bottle back at no charge).  For this sort of service, I don't mind paying the 3-4x markup. 

Veritas has an excellent list, and always has great selection by the glass at both the high and low end of the range.  They also have interesting half bottles.  This allows the customer to order something they could not perhaps afford by the full bottle, but at least be able to try a glass or two.

Babbo has a huge list of all Italian wines, many not found elswhere, and a knowledgeable staff to sell them.  I know little about Italian wines, so I always rely on them to choose for me.  They have seldom steered me wrong.  I suspect a lot of these wines are quite inexpensive at cost, but they're generally interesting and affordable.  The list also has plenty of selections at all price points.  I don't care if Batali sells me a $10 bottle of some obscure Italian wine for $50, so long as it's an enjoyable and interesting bottle - which it almost invariably is.   

I know that each of these restaurants sells a lot of wine at a wide range of price points, and I'd guess that they probably sell more wine than most of their competitors.  In the end, the common denominator seems to me to be a staff who can impart their enthusiasm for and knowledge of wine to their customers, and having a balanced list that allows customers to find something worth drinking whether they're on a  $50 or a $500 wine budget.

Too many supposedly "high end" restaurants charge high markups, yet offer too little in terms of service or selection.

Is the horse dead yet????

Edited March 8, 2005 by Felonius (log)

[herbacidal]

Is the horse dead yet????

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For the time being.

[Bux]

AK@Spicehouse, I'm not sure I get your point in regard to the thread, or more specifically why you chose to quote my post for your reply.

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I don't know why he quoted you - but I think his point was simply - if you think it's overpriced - don't buy it. No one's breaking your arm.

I'm not quite sure of how to respond to that. Of course I don't buy wine I think is overpriced, although I frequently don't know what a particular bottle is worth before I try it. I don't carry a retail catalogue in my mind and I do try wines I haven't had before. If you're talking about not buying wine at all in a restaurant, my response might be to ask why would I bother to dine out at all. Wine increases the pleasure of most of my meals and most restaurants couldn't get away with charging the menu prices, if they didn't serve wine to my wife and myself. By the same token, cocktails do nothing to improve my dining experience. I find them invariably a poor value in that regard, although I suspect the percentage markup over retail is even higher with hard liquor than with wine. If wine drinkers subsidize the non drinkers, cocktail drinkers subsidize my wine drinking. Note that I don't drink much wine in triple digits and with cocktails running $15 in a restaurant, I'd say a bottle of booze brings a higher return to a restaurant than a bottle of wine that retails at the same price.

The main complaint my husband voices is when he trusts the staff recommendations for wine (and he always does in high end restaurants) - and they wind up serving him mediocre (or worse) wine.  This happened to him both at Jean Georges (terrible bottle - just awful tasting stuff) and Per Se (several mediocre wines by the glass).  But not at ADNY (terrific bottle).  He can hardly ever remember the names of anything (and who can - with so many thousands and thousands of wines) - so he doesn't know if he's overpaying.  He just knows what's good - and what isn't.

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I find there's very little corelation between what tastes good to any particular individual and what's a fair price for wine. If that kind of value is a consideration, one must know what one likes and what one orders. You can't depend on getting that kind of value by drinking to the sommelier's taste. It's very easy to find a bargain that's not to your taste, or to overpay and still be pleased by the wine. Many fine wines are not to a neophyte's taste. I love lamb. Many diners find it too flavorful. I love pigeon and would prefer wild game birds. Many are put off by gamey meats and won't see the value in a woodcock offered for the same price as chicken.

[slkinsey]

. . . Note that I don't drink much wine in triple digits and with cocktails running $15 in a restaurant, I'd say a bottle of booze brings a higher return to a restaurant than a bottle of wine that retails at the same price.

Just to bring a little perspective. . . Most bars like to run at about 20% - 25% liquor cost on cocktails to maintain a reasonable profit margin. An expensive vodka like Cîroc runs a little over a dollar an ounce wholesale. So, if you buy a typical "fancy restaurant" vodka martini (around 5 ounces), the liquor cost is $5 to the house. That 5 dollars has to pay for the glass, the napkin, the bartender and barbacks, the glass washer, the ice machine, etc. If they sell this drink at the typical 15 bucks, they're running the drink at 33% liquor cost. My friends in the business tell me that this is ultimately a money loser for the house.

[Juanito]

It's a bit disingenuous to claim food costs are sometimes as high as 45% (again I'm not talking about a restaurant in a smaller city where the mark ups might have to be lower). Even at the top tier restaurants this doesn't represent the average. If it did (which it most certainly does not), it would be a formula for a speedy bankruptcy.

Just to set the record straight, I said that the food cost in some dishes might be as high as 45%. I did not say, nor did I mean to imply, that the total food cost was that high. That surely would be a recipe for disaster.

[marcus]

So, if you buy a typical "fancy restaurant" vodka martini (around 5 ounces), the liquor cost is $5 to the house. That 5 dollars has to pay for the glass, the napkin, the bartender and barbacks, the glass washer, the ice machine, etc.  If they sell this drink at the typical 15 bucks, they're running the drink at 33% liquor cost.  My friends in the business tell me that this is ultimately a money loser for the house.

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I don't know of any fancy restaurant that pours anything near 5 ounces of vodka into a martini, there is very little vermouth. I think that would wipe out their customers, before they even start their meals. It would contain the alcohol equivalent of two thirds of a bottle of wine. The total volume of a martini, I don't know how large it is, contains some ice melt. I think that even 2.5 ounces of vodka plus vermouth would be generous. I'm sure that some of our bartenders could clarify this further. I do think that the economics will work out just fine.

[chefzadi]

Interesting. There's a thread about BYO and corkage fees in the Wine forum.

From the viewpoint of an industry professional BYO has been a non-issue throughout my career. I've never offered BYO and I don't think I missed out on any business because of it. Nor has BYO ever been pushed on me, so it's not like I've had to slam the door shut on it either. I've had customers bring wine to share with me. My markups have always been industry standard with price points geared toward the market. 3-4 times is not just a NYC thing, it's an industry standard that leans more towards 4.

We all have our budgets somewhere. But the thing is in the bigger cities it's not that hard to cultivate a clientele that isn't terribly concerned with mark ups. Some customers may want to "pick apart" a $150.00 meal, but others will casually eat a $300.00 meal. Same applies to wine. I don't mean to imply that the quality shouldn't be there, of course it should. There should be value. Therein lies the rub for some. Value for money is so relative.

This is what I try to offer (but I wouldn't argue with a restaurant that doesn't offer this, because it's not my business to tell someone else how to run their business). I don't go lower than industry standards for wine prices. For my food it will match or be a little more for some dishes. I don't go lower for this. Going lower doesn't increase volume or customer base like some might think. I'm talking about the upper mid/lower high end type of restaurant. I've always preferred this level as a chef. It gives me a chance to really cook and to be "cheffy" (creative, artistic) when I want to be. I can do a basic menu that keeps the regulars coming again and again. I can offer a range of dishes that people actually eat, rather than "forcing" myself to be cutting edge and innovative all the time. I love to cook, if the simple thing is the best thing, I'm not going to complicate it to get my name in the papers. I can buy more common ingredients when there's a good deal and do more classic dishes (modernized of course). I can make good stocks and soups that permeate the restaurant with the aroma of good "home" cooked food. I can also do special menus at very special prices (by that I mean carte blanche, not cheap). I can be creative when I am truly inspired to be. I can do these menus for customers who understand my approach to cuisine gastronomique and make it just for them. They feel special, I'm happy with my efforts, the results and the respect I'm given. With this model I get to be a cook and a chef with a lot of happy customers. I said earlier that it's not my business to tell someone else how to run their business. True, but I have to add that this model has proven to be a cash cow again and again. Instead of coming up with a "concept" restaurant try serving some real food and good customer service. I'm a French Chef, you won't see me opening up a Spanish restaurant because it suddenly becomes a new trend. So why is an Italian chef with no French training and very little work experience (if any) in a French restaurant opening up a French Bistro with his big fat name allover it? I'm getting off topic.

As for wines as it relates to the menu my approach is the same. A good selection of entry level wines at more democratic prices. Expensive bottles purchased for special menus. This saves on investing in too much stock and it gives "special" customers a choice.

[touaregsand]

It's a bit disingenuous to claim food costs are sometimes as high as 45% (again I'm not talking about a restaurant in a smaller city where the mark ups might have to be lower). Even at the top tier restaurants this doesn't represent the average. If it did (which it most certainly does not), it would be a formula for a speedy bankruptcy.

Just to set the record straight, I said that the food cost in some dishes might be as high as 45%. I did not say, nor did I mean to imply, that the total food cost was that high. That surely would be a recipe for disaster.

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Just to further straighten the record. I wasn't directing that comment at anything you said in particular. I've seen that figure floating around here and there. And I wanted to set the...um... record straight on that.

[Bux]

So, if you buy a typical "fancy restaurant" vodka martini (around 5 ounces), the liquor cost is $5 to the house. That 5 dollars has to pay for the glass, the napkin, the bartender and barbacks, the glass washer, the ice machine, etc.  If they sell this drink at the typical 15 bucks, they're running the drink at 33% liquor cost.  My friends in the business tell me that this is ultimately a money loser for the house.

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I don't know of any fancy restaurant that pours anything near 5 ounces of vodka into a martini, there is very little vermouth. I think that would wipe out their customers, before they even start their meals. It would contain the alcohol equivalent of two thirds of a bottle of wine. The total volume of a martini, I don't know how large it is, contains some ice melt. I think that even 2.5 ounces of vodka plus vermouth would be generous. I'm sure that some of our bartenders could clarify this further. I do think that the economics will work out just fine.

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As I read Sam, and admittedly it's not entirely clear in my mind, he's figuring the "liquor cost" as the cost of gin + "the glass, the napkin, the bartender and barbacks, the glass washer, the ice machine, etc." He's saying the cost is everything that can be applied to the cost of selling the booze and eliminating the cost of general overhead such as rent, lighting, etc. So we get a price to the consumer of three times cost to the restaurant. At the same time, when we're talking about wine, we're talking cost of purchase. What happens when you add on the ancillary costs you add on for a cocktail. Wine glasses are usually more fragile than bar glasses in any given restaurant. Wines are often stored for a much longer time than gin and need far more care and special conditions. We start to head back to one the original concerns. These ancillary costs run far more in the luxury restaurants with sommelier(s), temperature and humidty controlled storage, superfine glasses, etc. There's a reason to accept a higher markup from one restaurant than from another, if your profiting from those extra costs incurred by the restaurant.