Some stock questions

[chefzadi]

The uses of chicken stock as it applies to a French restaurant.

A homey mom and pop Bistro might use chicken stock for onion soup, a mid range place might use veal stock, a high end place would use beef bouillon.

As for using bones. Browned bones would be used for a chicken demi-glace to serve with roast chicken. These bones are fresh, uncooked. Leftover bones from an already roasted chicken would not be used even if they were available because alot of the flavor from the bones would have leeched out into the meat during the roasting process. The whole point of a demi-glace is concentration of flavor.

A chicken demi-glace can be very refined. Chicken stock in general though won't be found in French fine dining.

[JPW]

I imagine the rather obvious reason why roast chickens are not a part of the standard french technique is simply because french restaurants don't have an easy source of roast chicken carcasses, at least ones that haven't been knawed on by customers.

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good point, and rest assured that I don't use knawed turkey bones...just the carcass when I make the after holiday gumbo mentioned above.

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Forgive me if I am wrong, but for the home chef, what could possibly be the problem with using the bones off of peoples' plates?

I mean, these things will be going into 180-200 degree water for the next x number of hours.

Is it an actual germ thing or just squeemishness?

[fifi]

Uh . . . Confession time. I have been known to use the bones from the plates to make stock. I just don't tell. From a hygeine standpoint, you are correct that the final product will be sterile. But, then, I normally start the stock as part of the cleaning up process so they aren't sitting around for any time at all.

[JPW]

Uh . . . Confession time. I have been known to use the bones from the plates to make stock.

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Me too (and not just the bones). That's why I was wondering

[fifi]

Oooooo . . . Confessions of the plate cleaners?

[Pam R]

I'll ask about buying chicken bones from my local supermarket, but I'll bet the kid looks at me like I'm from another planet...I swear most cuts must come packaged already, they really don't know how to cut anything for me except tri-tips...guess I got lucky!

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We buy chicken bones packaged from the slaughterhouse (because we're a kosher business, all of our chicken comes in already slaughtered and packaged from another city). We sell them for under $2 a pound (I know - you may think this is expensive but it's kosher ... we sell whole birds for just under $4 a pound)

So if they do get their chickens in already packaged, they may already be bringing in bones - or could easily get them if you requested them. If they are doing their own deboning - they may already sell the bones or if they're throwing them out, they may let you have them for a few cents a pound.

We sell cases of chicken bones (wings and my favorite - necks) every week for chicken soup.

[Pam R]

While many chefs may frown upon using bones from chickens that had the meat roasted on them - if you're making a soup with lots of other ingredients, there's no reason not to use them. I wouldn't use them to make a clear, flavourful broth/stock - there isn't enough flavour left in them. But as something to use as a base for other flavours, why not?

[highchef]

I think it's all relative...resturants and homes use what they have. As far as the knawed bones..well when you have big dogs (I know, I know, Your not supposed to give them that, but YOU tell my husband and the labs that) they find their way outside. Heck, I had a setter once who helped himself to a turkey leg at thanksgiving then wagged to go outside with it. Mom threw a fit for someone to 'grab that dog' but I pointed out to her that we wern't about to eat that leg after the dog slobbered all over it...gotta draw the line somewhere! I have been making chicken broth and concentrating it down (without salt) and just using that when I don't need/want to use the veal demi I made. BTW, I was in a little market the Boston people turned me onto this week and they had veal demi and chicken and beef concentrates. This is a high quality place, with the best of the best...olive oils, breads, chocolate, spices, pates', wonderful wines. I bought the veal to compare with what's in my freezer. When I get back from this trip this weekend, I'll make something with it and let you know how it is cause I think you may be able to order it. It's high...7 bucks for maybe an ounce, but if it's good it'll be worth having on hand. I have never seen veal demi in a condensed paste before..we'll see.

[chefzadi]

While many chefs may frown upon using bones from chickens that had the meat roasted on them - if you're making a soup with lots of other ingredients, there's no reason not to use them.  I wouldn't use them to make a clear, flavourful broth/stock - there isn't enough flavour left in them.  But as something to use as a base for other flavours, why not?

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We don't for home use. Overall, we're not the frowning type.

But for restaurant use, I just don't see the applications.

[Busboy]

Heck, some of our best stocks are made with bones from a chicken roasted for dinner. Generally speaking, I'd just as soon use it as something crystal clear from a fresh chicken. It adds a little personality to the dish which, admittedly, makes things a little more variable than a pro would appreciate.

It wasn't a chicken stock, but one time I surrepticiously gathered all the bones from a prime rib that had been dry-rubbed with salt, black pepper, garlic and onions and made a stock, and then clarified it into a spectacular consumee. Escoffier may not have approved, but the rest of us had a damn good time.

[Pam R]

Alls I'm sayin' is that if I'm making chicken soup/stock I'm using raw bones, wings, necks and occasionally a whole chicken or 20. (if we're making 60-70 L we use lots-o-chicks). The whole chickens are only thrown in if the meat is going to be used to make kreplach or blintzes.

If I'm making a turkey wild rice soup with lots of veggies (or somethin) - well heck, I may use some bones that were tossed in the freezer from that time we had to roast and carve 10 turkeys!

I'm not sure what my point is here....

[highchef]

My conclusion from this discussion is. if you're following a recipe and want to do the extra step, then go the whole 9 yards and go do the classical thing. On a daily basis though my cooking is a dailylevolution. I have demi etc. in the freezer, but I'm more likely to cook something that requires a stock as a result of having the ingredients from something else that points me in that direction.cooking has many different paths and I think I'll just do what comes available and consider the variations of flavor (albeit, this way would be hit or miss for beginner cooks) a bonus. very informative thread.

[CaliPoutine]

Im about to make risotto and I pulled some jars of homeade stock from the fridge. I made these about 2 months ago. Is the stock still good?

[edsel]

Im about to make risotto and I pulled some jars of homeade stock from the fridge.  I made these about 2 months ago.  Is the stock still good?

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if the containers have been sitting in the fridge untouched, they're probably not safe to use.

I think there's a discussion somewhere here about the safety of storing stocks. As I recall, the consensus was that you can keep a stock for weeks provided that you take it out and boil it (and then cool it rapidly) every week or so. Assuming that you haven't been "maintaining" the stock, two months in the fridge sounds a bit out of range.

I usually allow a layer of fat to collect on top of stock when storing in the fridge. I figure that sealing off the stock from the surrounding air can't hurt. I inevitably "lose" a container in the back of the fridge every once in a while. Even if that container doesn't have a case of the blue fuzzies, I toss it. And curse myself for not freezing it when it was still good.

EDIT: Found the previous discussion. Looks like it's three days, not a "week or so" .

Edited March 27, 2005 by edsel (log)

[Pam R]

I agree - I'd probably toss it... and you should freeze your stocks! (sorry)

[CaliPoutine]

I agree - I'd probably toss it...  and you should freeze your stocks!  (sorry)

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I do have some frozen, In fact I have 2 one quart containers just in case Im craving some matza ball soup. However, I put some in the fridge, because I thought I read some where that it keeps "forever" in the fridge.

I boiled it up, tasted it and promptly threw it out.

I defrosted 1 quart and made some fabulous risotto

mushroom, pea and shrimp with parmesean reggiano and lemon oil.

Yummy!!

[edsel]

I defrosted 1 quart and made some fabulous risotto

mushroom, pea and shrimp with parmesean reggiano and lemon oil.

Yummy!! ←

I love a happy ending.