The best SERVICE in DC?

[murkycoffee]

FYI... on NPR's All Things Considered earlier today (Thursday)

[murkycoffee]

Just thought I'd check in and see if anyone had learned anything new about coffee.

*ducks*

[hjshorter]

Just thought I'd check in and see if anyone had learned anything new about coffee.

*ducks* 

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Ha!

Welcome back Mr Murky. How's business?

[murkycoffee]

Good thanks... still no MD branch in the works... sorry.

[phaelon56]

Just thought I'd check in and see if anyone had learned anything new about coffee.

*ducks* 

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Sure - every day I learn how little I know and gain more respect for those who are pushing the boundaries of "what is good coffee and espresso". Plus I now know that manic-depressive behavior from a guy like Murky really is the new heroin chic

Admittedly his earlier posts were pretty far over the top in some people's estimation but that fact is that he speaks the truth about restaurant coffee in nearly all places and he's 100% correct about espresso in restaurants.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the coffee served in any number of higher end restaurants in the US is crap but more significantly - it fails to live up to the potential that coffee offers.

Here's a challenge - I'll offer up $1 - you heard it right - that's 100 PENNIES!!! to the person who can find me a restaurant in the US that

1) Sources coffee from a roaster who gets it to them within 2 - 3 days of roast date

2) Stores their coffee at room temp in light-proof air-tight containers

3) Weighs the beans per brew batch and uses the appropriate amount of beans for the amount of water

4) Grinds the beans for each brew batch just before brewing

5) Brews with a drip/extraction system that consistently brews at 203 to 205 degrees F

6) Offers single origin estate type varietal coffee (at least one varietal in addition to their house blend)

7) Brews into airpots or offers press pots

There are dozens (if not over a hundred or more) independent coffeehouses in North America alone that can fulfill every condition on that list. But restaurants? I'll be surprised if there are more than one or two. Or even that many.

It's not rocket science but it does require having an individual on staff who takes responsibility for the coffee program. Also - a good roaster/supplier who can assist with setting up the program and management/owners who are willing to trade off slightly lower margins on coffee in return for the opportunity to offer the very best.

A factor not yet discussed but significant is that most people, even those who are very food savvy and have highly developed palates, have not actually tasted exceptional coffee. Oh sure... they've had very good coffee but not the truly exceptional.

And don't get me started on the possibility of having truly great espresso in a restaurant. Thomas Keller uses Illy pods for the espresso he serves at Cafe Bouchon. I rest my case.

In many instances (especially for those of us who eschew alcohol) coffee and/or espresso is the final note in a fine dining experience - the last set of taste sensations that one can savor before the evening ends. I remain baffled as to why more restaurateurs and chefs don't "get it". Pursuit of excellence in cuisine should encompass every single aspect of the dining experience - why not coffee?

[phaelon56]

I neglected to mention:

I've visited Nick's Capitol Hill store on two occasions. Had a 12 oz quad shot latte the first visit when I was a random visitor and a machiatto on the second visit when Nick and his trainer happened to be on premises. In both cases I received a world class espresso drink.

The quality was as good as anything I've gotten at some of the best places in Seattle (Hines, Victrola, Vivace) and also at least the same level as my most recent machiatto at Gimme Coffee in Ithaca NY.

I was less enthused about the cappuccino and machiatto I had at Gimme about 18 months ago but I think their roast profile has gotten lighter or they're using a different blend. They also have a new Mirage espresso machine at their Cayuga Street store which may be a small factor but IMHO if you have a properly tweaked and operated machine the more significant factors are raw materials, process control and technique.

Can't speak to the Arlington Murky location as I have not visited but the DC shop is in my top five for the US. And I'm known for being pretty damn picky about my espresso.

[T.Thrasher]

Just thought I'd check in and see if anyone had learned anything new about coffee.

*ducks* 

←

Sure - every day I learn how little I know and gain more respect for those who are pushing the boundaries of "what is good coffee and espresso". Plus I now know that manic-depressive behavior from a guy like Murky really is the new heroin chic

Admittedly his earlier posts were pretty far over the top in some people's estimation but that fact is that he speaks the truth about restaurant coffee in nearly all places and he's 100% correct about espresso in restaurants.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the coffee served in any number of higher end restaurants in the US is crap but more significantly - it fails to live up to the potential that coffee offers.

Here's a challenge - I'll offer up $1 - you heard it right - that's 100 PENNIES!!! to the person who can find me a restaurant in the US that

1) Sources coffee from a roaster who gets it to them within 2 - 3 days of roast date

2) Stores their coffee at room temp in light-proof air-tight containers

3) Weighs the beans per brew batch and uses the appropriate amount of beans for the amount of water

4) Grinds the beans for each brew batch just before brewing

5) Brews with a drip/extraction system that consistently brews at 203 to 205 degrees F

6) Offers single origin estate type varietal coffee (at least one varietal in addition to their house blend)

7) Brews into airpots or offers press pots

There are dozens (if not over a hundred or more) independent coffeehouses in North America alone that can fulfill every condition on that list. But restaurants? I'll be surprised if there are more than one or two. Or even that many.

It's not rocket science but it does require having an individual on staff who takes responsibility for the coffee program. Also - a good roaster/supplier who can assist with setting up the program and management/owners who are willing to trade off slightly lower margins on coffee in return for the opportunity to offer the very best.

A factor not yet discussed but significant is that most people, even those who are very food savvy and have highly developed palates, have not actually tasted exceptional coffee. Oh sure... they've had very good coffee but not the truly exceptional.

And don't get me started on the possibility of having truly great espresso in a restaurant. Thomas Keller uses Illy pods for the espresso he serves at Cafe Bouchon. I rest my case.

In many instances (especially for those of us who eschew alcohol) coffee and/or espresso is the final note in a fine dining experience - the last set of taste sensations that one can savor before the evening ends. I remain baffled as to why more restaurateurs and chefs don't "get it". Pursuit of excellence in cuisine should encompass every single aspect of the dining experience - why not coffee?

←

Here we go again. I will just say one thing about service, Service is pouring a wonderful cup of coffee and it is also giving people what they want; having the overly Tattooed guy give you a smile in the morning not a grunt when they go into your shop to get their first cup of the day, not just putting their change on the counter actually putting it in your hand and look you in the eye and say thank you and have a nice day.

We think the coffee portion of our service is very important, remember it is the last course you usually get in a restaurant. I have to thank Vincent Iatesta the owner and Roast master of Café Pronto. So onward with our coffee program at Restaurant Eve

1) We use Café Pronto in Annapolis Maryland, We order our coffee on Friday they roast on Monday and we get it on Tuesday.

2) We actually use containers that have hermetic airtight seals that open at both ends so we always have the first in first out mentality, stored at room temperature.

3) We do not actually weigh the beans for each use; we use three different measuring cups for each size press pot we offer.

4) We grind for each order.

5) We have a water tower that dispenses water at 203 Degrees F

6) We offer 4 coffees (Plus 2 espresso blends)1 Decaf, Decaf Colombia smooth and light, and 3 caffenated coffees, Mokha Java, Classic Blend of Yemen Mocca and Indonesian Java. Rich, Full Body, Complex & Sweet with Cherry & Chocolate, Eve’s Blend Med-Light Roasted, Good Body, Zippy Acidity. Oh yeah that single origin estate type coffee, Esmeralda Special – Panama It comes from Hacienda La Esmeralda in the Boquete region of Panama.

7) We only use press pots and not an ordinary glass pot, we use Frieling press pots that are insulated (which I have never seen in a coffee shop)

Please remember there may be lots of independent coffee houses in north America that can fulfill every condition on your list as far as the coffee service, but I know of none where I can get a Braised Pork Belly and then an Esmeralda Special! There are a lot of restaurants that take their coffee service seriously but we also have a lot of other things to take seriously also not just coffee and pastries.

I would prefer a Susan B. Anthony Dollar I collect them!

Todd T.

[murkycoffee]

I would prefer a Susan B. Anthony Dollar I collect them!

Todd T.

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Hahaha! Owen! You owe him a dollar for sure!

I still stick to my $1,000 bet, but unfortunately for you O, you set your bar a little too low.

I know a good number of restaurants who are doing great coffee service and would meet each of your criteria, and some (very few) restaurants who are doing some respectable espresso (even pouring latte art).

Todd, big props to you for what you're doing with the coffee at Eve. We're seeing more and more restaurants come to realize that their coffee can be truly appropriate to their level of cuisine. It's happening by establishing relationships through great roasters like Vincent... who I'm looking forward to eventually meeting (we've emailed). A couple of my staff spent some time with him at his roastery during part of their "Barista Guild Mid-Atlantic Goodwill Tour." Actually Todd, in a way, I think it's you and your posts on this thread that sorta put us in touch with Vincent in the first place!

The tragedy is that Todd, you're the exception, not the rule. Most restaurants still don't "get it," but mark my words... things are a-changin'. Trotter has been working with Intelligentsia in Chicago, Magnolia Grill in Durham with Counter Culture, and so on. As specialty coffee at the highest level becomes more and more present in more and more cities, consumer awareness will drive restaurants to finally pay attention to their coffee as a real culinary experience unto itself... not (for example) just get big cans of illycaffe because it's "what people do."

Anyway, we'll see. Todd, enjoy that Esmerelda... while you can! It's great stuff, but supplies are very scarce (as you know)!!!

Now all we need is to get this guy a scale.

Edited September 6, 2005 by murkycoffee (log)

[monavano]

I can attest to both Eve and Murky Coffee serving up the best of the best. I've gone to the Murky Coffee on the hill and enjoyed a latte. The coffee and service at Restaurant Eve "wowed" me. I immediately asked for the source of the coffee so I could order it online. In fact, ever since my first meal at Eve, I have used my coffee press and not my electric coffee maker.

[landrumm2000]

I would prefer a Susan B. Anthony Dollar I collect them!

Todd T.

←

Todd, big props to you for what you're doing with the coffee at Eve.

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Finally, Todd, you are getting the recognition you deserve after so so long. It must be nice to be validated at long last.

I'm still waiting on my $1000, though.

An interesting side note that I have resisted sharing until now: On Memorial Day I stopped into Murky Coffee in Arlington and ordered a hot tea (coffee makes me speak my mind a little too freely). It was 3:40 and they were closing at 4 due to the holiday. I was told that they would only serve me tea in a paper to-go cup, not in the proper ceramic pot, because they were getting ready to close. Not really service to crow about. I can't say how the tea was since I declined.

I don't know, maybe it should be doubled to $2000.

Michael Landrum

Chef/Improprietor, Ray's The Steaks

[murkycoffee]

Finally, Todd, you are getting the recognition you deserve after so so long.  It must be nice to be validated at long last.

I'm still waiting on my $1000, though.

I'm still waiting for a true challenge. If you're up for it, then put together the 'rules' and we can start making it happen. In the coffee-world, we call that "put your money where your mouth is."

An interesting side note that I have resisted sharing until now:  On Memorial Day I stopped into Murky Coffee in Arlington and ordered a hot tea (coffee makes me speak my mind a little too freely).  It was 3:40 and they were closing at 4 due to the holiday.  I was told that they would only serve me tea in a paper to-go cup, not in the proper ceramic pot, because they were getting ready to close.  Not really service to crow about.  I can't say how the tea was since I declined.

It's good to see that people practice what they preach.

I don't know, maybe it should be doubled to $2000.

Sure. It's your money.

[Dasein]

I'm still waiting on my $1000, though.

I'm still waiting for a true challenge. If you're up for it, then put together the 'rules' and we can start making it happen. In the coffee-world, we call that "put your money where your mouth is."

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I'd be interested in seeing {Michael} take the challenge. It would be real nice watching Superbowl this year on the Plazma TV Nick would probably buy with the winnings Maybe {Michael} could catter too?

Dasein

Had to edit in Michael's name.... for some reason I called him Ian (I'd explain, it has something to do with the font on my computer and his user name -- but I still messed it up. Sorry).

Edited September 8, 2005 by Dasein (log)

[vin]

Hi Nick,

I didn't know you were an egulleter!

You know Nick I came from the fine dining community and then went into the coffeehouse/roasting business. When I ran a critically acclaimed restaurant in Vancouver one of the things I wanted to implement was to have the best coffee in a fine dining restaurant. I felt that restauarants we're generally flawed from the start in serving great coffee. What I found:

1. More than one person was responsible for making espresso. Usually whoever sold the espresso made the espresso. This is a major flaw as you know. It's much harder to train 20 staff to make espresso than 1-2 trained people in the restaurant.

2. Not everyone in Fine Dining is passionate about coffee. You're passionate because you're in the coffee business. In a restaurant you come across a lot of people, some of which don't like coffee ... some are tea drinkers .... most are wine enthusiast. So the major problem is not having ownership or management of a fine dining restaurant be passionate about coffee. I know some of the best chefs in the city and you'd be surprised how many chefs don't like coffee. I found it strange ... yet in my experience true.

3. Restaurants need to be great at everything to be successful. In coffee you really focus on coffee and service. Anyone that runs a kitchen understands the mass amount of things that need to be inplace to run the line. For those of you not in the business, ask yourself " How long would it take me to cook a dinner for 4 at home?" Most people will take all day to do this and probably screw up the coffee because of all the things they need to remember. Think about how many people are served in a restaurant and how many things need to be ready and checked.

Then in the dining room: are the flowers looking fresh?, table cloths clean and pressed? Crystal spottless?, Reservations confirmed, etc, etc, etc (it's a really long list, believe me). It's a lot of work. I know, I still think about it now, 6 years after getting out of fine dining. Remember if you srew up a $2.50 Latte, you may be forgiven and you'll probable see the customer again ... in a fine dining scenario if you screw up a $35.00 Veal Chop you're not seeing that customer again.

4. Depending on the restaurant, most managers want to flip tables. If the coffee is too good and becomes the main focus of the dinner ... people linger... second seating wait ... sales become less.

I chose to do coffee right. And I'm impressed with what I read at the "eve restaurant" he should be applauded because he does more than anyone I've ever heard in fine dining.

It truly is a rarity to get great coffee in fine dining but it certainly is possible. Nick I know you came from good intent on your comments and I think a few of you should go down and meet Nick at Murky's. He's truly committed to great coffee. It's what he specializes in.

There are a few more reasons but it'll take me hours to give my opinion.

Nick you're a class guy and I know you do a great job in coffee.

Vin

[Dasein]

What would be cool is not a competition but an exibition. Like why don't you and {Michael} get together and have a coffee summit? Nick could bring some of the worlds best coffees and do a cupping seminar with {Michael} and select staff (just like a sommelier) -- {Michael} you could give a service seminar or perhaps share some of your knowledge and experience about fine dining that would enlighten nick.

I like the idea of sharing and showing what you know - share your passions! That would be wonderful. Maybe make some new friends?

Edited again to replace "Ian" with "Michael". Sorry for the screw-up.

Edited September 8, 2005 by Dasein (log)

[T.Thrasher]

I would prefer a Susan B. Anthony Dollar I collect them!

Todd T.

←

Todd, big props to you for what you're doing with the coffee at Eve.

←

Finally, Todd, you are getting the recognition you deserve after so so long. It must be nice to be validated at long last.

I'm still waiting on my $1000, though.

An interesting side note that I have resisted sharing until now: On Memorial Day I stopped into Murky Coffee in Arlington and ordered a hot tea (coffee makes me speak my mind a little too freely). It was 3:40 and they were closing at 4 due to the holiday. I was told that they would only serve me tea in a paper to-go cup, not in the proper ceramic pot, because they were getting ready to close. Not really service to crow about. I can't say how the tea was since I declined.

I don't know, maybe it should be doubled to $2000.

Michael Landrum

Chef/Improprietor, Ray's The Steaks

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Michael, I tried not to tell about my experience at Murky Coffe either but did you read the first paragraph of my post?

Again Service is not putting a swirly in my coffe it is the TOTAL EXPERIENCE, from the greeting to the goodbye, you have to treat people like they are a guest in your house!

[malachi]

Sell me on why I should pass by 4-5 other sources of espresso product between the office and Eastern Market to visit Murky.

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This is one of those "it's hard to explain, you have to experience it" kind of things. In the coffee world, there is as big a gap between a place like Murky and their perceived competitors as there is between those competitors and the free coffee at a car dealer.

The vast, and I mean vast, percentage of Americans have literally never tasted what folks in the specialty coffee world are talking about when they talk about "great" coffee.

So it's really hard to explain why you should skip the convenient and familiar and go to someplace that coffee freaks go on and on about as being special or different or just plain better.

I'll put it this way...

If I were in DC and Murky was closed I'd either drive to Timonium for my coffee or just skip it altogether - 'cause the rest of the stuff served as coffee just isn't.

Edited September 8, 2005 by malachi (log)

[malachi]

... having the overly Tattooed guy give you a smile in the morning not a grunt when they go into your shop to get their first cup of the day, not just putting their change on the counter actually putting it in your hand and look you in the eye and say thank you and have a nice day.

If you want people from the coffee world to respect what you are doing and stop stereotyping your product, I'd suggest showing a little of the same in response.

... Oh yeah that single origin estate type coffee, Esmeralda Special – Panama It comes from Hacienda La Esmeralda in the Boquete region of Panama.

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Wow!

Do you mind if I ask how much you charge for the Esmerelda?

I think you might be the only place I've heard of that is selling the Esmerelda brewed.

[T.Thrasher]

... having the overly Tattooed guy give you a smile in the morning not a grunt when they go into your shop to get their first cup of the day, not just putting their change on the counter actually putting it in your hand and look you in the eye and say thank you and have a nice day.

If you want people from the coffee world to respect what you are doing and stop stereotyping your product, I'd suggest showing a little of the same in response.

... Oh yeah that single origin estate type coffee, Esmeralda Special – Panama It comes from Hacienda La Esmeralda in the Boquete region of Panama.

←

Wow!

Do you mind if I ask how much you charge for the Esmerelda?

I think you might be the only place I've heard of that is selling the Esmerelda brewed.

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Actually not sterotyping that was my actual experience! And I am not looking respect from the coffe world, I am just stating the facts.

And the Esmerelda is $12 for Small Pot

[malachi]

It's a stereotype.

Just like "restaurant people are alcoholics" would be a stereotype.

Or, more to the point, "restaurants have crap coffee". Know what I mean?

That's super cool about the Esmerelda.

Are you selling much of it?

I wish more folks had a chance to taste that coffee. It's incredible.

I'm really glad you're selling it this way - I hope your customers appreciate the gift.

[T.Thrasher]

It's a stereotype.

Just like "restaurant people are alcoholics" would be a stereotype.

Or, more to the point, "restaurants have crap coffee". Know what I mean?

That's super cool about the Esmerelda.

Are you selling much of it?

I wish more folks had a chance to taste that coffee. It's incredible.

I'm really glad you're selling it this way - I hope your customers appreciate the gift.

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You are clearly not understanding what I am saying. I am talking about my experience at Murky coffee. My wife and I went in to Murky and my expereince was The Tattooed guy that took my order grunted to me when I said to him good morning, I handed my money to him and he put my change back on the counter not in my hand and I said thank you and have a good day to him and he said nothing to me. Not once ever looking me in the eye. So really I am not sterotyping I am just relaying my experience. The coffee was probally the best I have had at a coffee shop. My whole point is There is alot to service not just pouring a fabulous cup of coffee.

[malachi]

Ah.

Got it.

Anyway... about the Esmerelda. Are people digging it?

[malachi]

I'd love to know more about how the Esmerelda is being received. It's one of my favorite coffees ever (though, to be honest, I think that this year's crop was a bit down in quality from last year).

[mhberk]

If I were in DC and Murky was closed I'd either drive to Timonium for my coffee or just skip it altogether - 'cause the rest of the stuff served as coffee just isn't.

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Where in Timonium? I'm in Timonium every Monday night for a class. It would be nice to hit a good coffee house before class begins!

[phaelon56]

Where in Timonium?  I'm in Timonium every Monday night for a class.  It would be nice to hit a good coffee house before class begins!

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from Baltimore City Paper web site

Jay's Shave Ice and Kona Coffee]

On York Road, 1/4 mile south of Timonium Road and next door to Smyth Jewelers

2046 York Road

Timonium, MD 21093     phone 410-561-0405

Summer Hours: 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. daily; winter Hours:7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Mon.-Fri.; 8 a.m.-8 p.m. Sat.; 9 a.m.-5 p.m. Sun.

Jay's web site appears to be down temporarily so I'll hold off on including that link. He takes his coffee and espresso very seriously and his baristas have served me a few outstanding drinks on the two occasions I stopped in to visit (I live a few hundred miles away - otherwise I'd be a regular both there and at Murky).

On a separate topic - T.Thrasher makes a very good point regarding service. I certainly didn't have that kind of experience when I visited Murky and suspect it was a fluke occurrence. But employee attitudes or behavior of that type certainly do fall into the category of a Sales Prevention Program.

The folks I work for part time have about a dozen baristas overall (most part time) spread across three locations. I suspect that we have our stray employee here and there who gets a bad attitude and throws it off at customers without the owners being aware of it. Hope springs eternal that anyone receiving such treatment would report it to a manager/owner but we're not always so fortunate. Sometimes people vote with their feet and their wallet. Not to mention sharing their unfortunate tale with a few friends.

Knock 'em all ya want and I'll be the first to admit that the Stepfordization inherent in their training can come off as a bit spooky sometimes but Starbucks really has the service thing down to a science.

Not all of their stores pull it off equally well but I've visited many due to my business travel and time spent in cities where there's no half decent independent within walking distance or easy driving distance of my hotel or customer's site.

As a general rule I am always greeted with what appears to a be a real smile and genuine enthusiasm when I enter the store and approach the ordering area. Communication seems to be consistently upbeat, friendly and very efficient to the customer and also between staff members dedicated to various behind the counter tasks. Invariably I'm notified verbally by name when my order is ready, thanked for my business and given a friendly parting word or two.

It's hardly accidental and yes the spontaneity sometimes seems absent. That's not coincidental - I have a friend who trained with them for a few weeks for a part time position and quit - horrified at what she felt was borderline behavior conditioning. But it works and they have created a customer experience that is consistent enough and pleasant enough to gain heavy repeat business and a growing customer base without heavy advertising.

I just wish they cared enough about coffee and espresso quality to make something worth drinking.

[murkycoffee]

An interesting side note that I have resisted sharing until now:  On Memorial Day I stopped into Murky Coffee in Arlington and ordered a hot tea (coffee makes me speak my mind a little too freely).  It was 3:40 and they were closing at 4 due to the holiday.  I was told that they would only serve me tea in a paper to-go cup, not in the proper ceramic pot, because they were getting ready to close.  Not really service to crow about.  I can't say how the tea was since I declined.

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So how was your tea today?

I'd love to chat the next time you're in.