Paris area/Burgundy/Loire Valley

[Pan]

Dear readers:

I'm a New Yorker and usually post to the New York board.

My parents, I, and my brother will be travelling to the above regions of France this June.

My father cannot eat food high in sucrose (table sugar) or fat (no beurres blancs or bearnaises for him!), and protein and carbohydrates must be in a rough balance at every meal. He also is allergic to red wine (even if it's cooked) and cannot eat nuts or foods high in potassium.

My mother does not eat anything that includes pig in it, nor does she eat fish. The rest of us do.

It would seem that restaurants that specialize in seafood or poultry/birds would be our best bets.

We already have some leads on places in Paris, but would gladly accept more. Our itinerary is not finalized, but we would be willing to go an hour or so out of our way for a really fine meal that can be prepared to be within our restrictions, and we do plan on renting a car for the part of our stay that will take place outside of Paris.

I thank you very much in advance for any suggestions, and will keep my family abreast of the thread.

Sincerely,

Michael

[cabrales]

My father cannot eat food high in . . . fat (no beurres blancs or bearnaises for him!)

Michael -- So we better understand the constraints, how intolerant to fat is your father?

[Bux]

You have a hard row to hoe, and I may not have much to contribute beyond sympathy. I find French food is a lot like American food except that it uses more fat, red wine and pork in its preparation. The French also eat more fish than we do. But I seem to recall that you have your own first hand knowledge of France, am I mistaken?

You note that your mother does not eat fish, but suggest a seafood restaurant would be a good bet. Does that mean you are distinguishing between fish and shell fish? I ask because most people who can't tolerate one, can't eat either. I'm not so sure the answers to my questions will help me provide any suggestions, but they might prod another member.

[Pan]

Cabrales:

My father can and does eat restaurant food in New York as long as it is low in fat - e.g. steamed, boiled, or soups that are reasonably low in fat. He cannot eat anything that's in any way fried (sauteed, etc.). His gall bladder was taken out last year.

Bux:

Yes. I spent the summers of 1992 and 1993 in France (mostly Nice, with some time in Paris).

My mother does not eat fish but does eat certain shellfish (especially shrimps and lobster; she doesn't eat squid or octopus, but my father and I do). It's not that she is allergic to fish; she simply does not like it. My father's dietary restrictions, however, are all necessary for his health.

Does no-one know of fine restaurants (at any price level) that might accomodate special requests on the basis of health?

[Bux]

He cannot eat anything that's in any way fried (sauteed, etc.). His gall bladder was taken out last year.

This is interesting as I've had my gall bladder removed well over ten years ago. I was given no warning about eating fat, but was told that there's a tendency for those who have had their gall bladders removed, to gain weight. More recently I have made some attempts to reduce my saturated fat intake. Notably I eat less ice cream and cook with less butter, but cheese and charcuterie tampering are still taboo in my eyes. Most of the food we cook at home is sauteed, though as I noted, we use more olive oil and less butter. In no way do I offer this as medical advice, though I'm often mindful that doctors seem hell bent not on lengthening life, but just making it less pleasant and thus seem longer. When I was younger I spent a few years on an "ulcer diet" that has now been discredited. Fortuantely I never held strictly to that either.

Your mother's aversion to fish should not be a problem. Your father may have a harder time. There are plenty of foods that are poached in France, but the French tendency is to enrich soups and sauces with a little butter and cream. Although that's less the case now than many years ago.

My limitations here are just that I've not paid attention to which restaurants might offer what you need so if I've been to one, I wouldn't remember that feature. I wonder if anyone knows of a French guide book to restaurants recommended for certain diets restricted for health reasons. I would not be surprised to learn that French doctors have totally different theories of what a patient should eat. The closest I can come to offering a suggestion is to note that good hotel restaurants are often best equipped to respond to special requests and needs of guests.

[PaulaJ]

Well, the good news about having your gall bladder

removed is that fats no longer bother you!! Your

father may have other reasons to regulate his

fats and balance his food groups.

 Salads are frequently offered as a first course.

 Consommes are low in fat, although salty.

 Vegetable based soups such as pistou frwuently

appear on menus.

   Grilled items and 'birds' do abound on most french

menus and could could always request the sauce be

omitted or placed on the side. Your mother will also

have choices involving prawns,lobster and sometimes,

crab.

   Desserts can be fruit based.

I suspect that your Dad is probably a pro at selecting

what works for him from any menu!

[Pan]

Well, the good news about having your gall bladder

removed is that fats no longer bother you!!

Where did you get _that_ idea? The gall bladder stores bile, which is necessary to digest fats, via their emulsification into smaller and smaller globules. The reason people can survive well without gall bladders is that the bile is actually produced in the liver, but the lack of a gall bladder means that less of it can be stored by the body. Eating a lot of fat without a gall bladder doesn't seem like the wisest idea, even if we do have Bux's testimony that he's been doing that for 10 years or so.

What's more, my father went through a period when his cholesterol level was high, so he had gone on a low-fat diet even _before_ it was found that he had gall stones and had to have his gall bladder removed.

Salt isn't a problem for my father. I should be on a low-salt diet (low-fat, too, to lose weight), but I haven't been strict about that. It's potassium - rather than sodium - which is a problem for my father.

My father isn't a pro at selecting things from menus because his dietary restrictions are complex, and it's often hard to know just how much fat (or other hidden ingredients) is in a given dish. In fact, my father seldom eats out and usually cooks all his food. It's on my father's behalf that I posted this message.

My mother won't have any problems, as she eats poultry and red meat as well as seafood.

Say, how does one ask for the sauce on the side? <<Est-ce que c'est possible de separer le sauce pour tout qu'on prepare pour mon pere, s'il vous plait>>? Does that do it? (My family's relying on me to be the spokesperson, as my French is at a good conversational level when I'm in practice.)

[PaulaJ]

I meant my post to be supportive and optomistic;

sorry if it sounded otherwise. If I were stuck w. my

very limited french I would ask for a la cote and gesture.............but perhaps others will be of

more assistance.

[Pan]

I meant my post to be supportive and optomistic;

sorry if it sounded otherwise.

Your post did project a friendly and helpful attitude. I guess my response must have seemed testy to you, and I'm sorry about that. Any and all efforts to help are certainly appreciated.

[cabrales]

My father cannot eat food high in sucrose (table sugar) or fat (no beurres blancs or bearnaises for him

Michael -- Outside of Paris and assuming you are interested in visiting restaurants of this type, perhaps your father could consider (1) the Bresse chicken preparation at Lorain's La Cote Saint-Jacques, Joigny that is prepared (steeped in a large pot) in champagne (does that contain any items inappropriate for him?; if I remember correctly, the sauce is brought separately), or (2) the Bresse chicken "Alexandre Dumaine" style at Bernard Loiseau's La Cote d'or, Saulieu (this dish is intense-tasting, but likewise is a Bresse chicken dish that appears to have limited cream; it does contain some liver tastes). In the meantime, at each place, your mother should have no problem and you will find things you like a la carte.  I would recommend Loraine over Loiseau, and also Loraine's chicken dish over Loiseau's.  Also, I think Loraine's chicken dish (without the sauce) is less fatty than Loiseau's.

On Burgundy, I was reading in a French magazine that some French wineries have very reasonably priced eateries on premises. I know some might consider Leflaive a shipper, but O Leflaive has one such facility, as do some producers in Aloxe Corton, among many others I imagine. I haven't visited wineries in Burgundy meaningfully, but perhaps members who have could speak to this route.  

[Pan]

Thanks, Cabrales. The chicken cooked in champagne sounds delicious and there's a good chance it would be fine for all members of my family.

[cabrales]

Thanks, Cabrales. The chicken cooked in champagne sounds delicious and there's a good chance it would be fine for all members of my family.

Pan -- Here's an indicative menu from Lorain's website, in English. It includes, of course, the "Bresse Chicken steamed in Champagne (allow 1 hour - for 2 persons) per person 70 €" (not inexpensive). Note the dish is placed in a section of the menu entitled "THE MUST -- some of the dishes for which La Côte Saint Jacques is famous".  Depending on when you arrive at the restaurant and whether the meal is lunch or dinner, you might want to prebook the dish in advance.

http://miseajour.apicius.com/lorain/uk/carterestaurant.asp

Steven Shaw has also written about this dish, and liked it, I believe.  I will post tasting notes on the dish shortly.  

The relatively new facility across the road from the old is nice, to the extent of the salon/library seating area on the ground floor and the dining rooms. The Lorains have a decent library of cook books and books on restaurants (although not as nice as the Troisgros'). If you arrive early, you can sit on an outdoor terrace facing a river.  If you are interested in staying at La Cote Saint Jacques, there is a range of prices for rooms from which to choose. One of J-M's siblings (I don't know if there's more than one) operates a hotel on the other side of the river (?) that has very reasonably priced accomodations. I have not stayed in any rooms operated by the Lorain family.

[Pan]

Thanks a lot, Cabrales. I'll look forward to the tasting notes.

[cabrales]

Thanks a lot, Cabrales. I'll look forward to the tasting notes.

Pan -- Below are my rough tasting notes.  They indicate that there was a light cream sauce (fattier than my earlier post indicated) added to the chicken, that may be significant to the overall flavor of the dish. You might want to take this additional piece of information into account in your choice of restaurants.

I had wanted to sample Bresse chicken with champagne sauce cooked in an earthenware pot (a nice, short, big one in this case) for a long time. A large piece of bread sealed the lid of the pot, and in the middle of the baked bread was the little metal tag, with the colors of France, that is one of the identifying characteristics of Bresse chicken. The crust was thick and also wide -- it took the dining room team member considerable effort to pry the thing from the pot. Then, the pot was brought over to me to smell -- clear and chicken-like. Apparently, champagne is the principal item in the pot, other than the chicken.

The chicken is removed onto a carving piece on the same trolley. The large Langiole knife cut through all areas without hassle. 4-5 pieces of supple breast meat, without the skin; one leg piece with a good amount of fattiness to the skin [i think your father may have to be careful with the skin].  The champagne sauce was heightened by the buttery aspects of this fat [!].  Finally, a piece of dark meat.  The chicken was velvety and onctuous. It was silky and tasty and well-prepared -- a gentle, true chicken flavor.

There was ladled a separate champagne sauce onto the dish [This is different from the champagne in which the chicken was cooked, although potentially formed from it -- one doesn't know] .  Light cream [this may be a problem for your father; although it could theoretically be requested to be omitted from the portion served to your father, the taste of the dish might be affected], with tiny little "balls" of carrots, zucchini and turnip. This sauce had limited connotations of alcohol, but the aftertaste contained the playfulness and sense in the mouth of champagne (even a slight, slight hint of sourness, which was appealing too).  The light cream was the predominant flavor in the sauce. An impressive dish.

The dishes I chose for my lunch were:

-- Boudin noir fait a la Maison et purree mousseline a l'ancienne (Home-made blood sausage, potato puree) (small portion gifted by kitchen and separate from regular amuses)

-- Huitres speciales en petite terrine oceane (Sea-fresh terrine of oysters; this is the oysters in a gelee of seawater dish)

-- Genese d'un plat sur le theme de l'huitre (Anatomy of a dish on an oyster theme) (1/2 portion) (This dish presents the completed dish, full size; alongside it are four miniature cups showing four key stages in the preparation of the dish)

-- Poularde de Bresse a la vapeur de Champagne (Bresse chicken steamed in champagne)

-- Glace a la Rose en tulipe croustillante et petales de Rose cristallise (Rose ice cream in a crunchy tulip [referring to shape], with crystallised rose petals)

        Bollinger R.D. 1981

        Verbena Infusion

[cabrales]

Say, how does one ask for the sauce on the side? <<Est-ce que c'est possible de separer le sauce pour tout qu'on prepare pour mon pere, s'il vous plait>>? Does that do it?

Pan -- Your proposed language of request is fine. I might supplement it by emphasizing it's due to health considerations, to signal it's not just personal preference.

"A cause d'un maladie, mon pere ne peut pas prendre des plats avec beaucoup de la graisse ou du beurre." (Because of an illness, my father cannot take in dishes with a lot of fat or butter)

That should bring home how important your father's dietary constraints are.

[Bux]

Needless to say, desserts, boudins noirs and cream sauces are not on Pan's father's dance card. More importantly I'd caution against saying my father cannot take in dishes with a lot of fat or butter. You'd be surprised how much butter a French chef might not consider a lot. It's often very difficult to impress on waitstaff that you are very serious about your medical needs.

[Pan]

Cabrales, is it necessary for me to use the word "maladie"? My father isn't sick; he just would be if he ate those things. How about "A' cause de sante', il faut que mon pere evite la graisse et le potasse (? is that the word for 'potassium'?) le plus possible"?

Thanks for adding the additional information. A cream sauce is not possible for my father.

[robert brown]

Doesn't Bernard Loiseau make it a thing not to use butter in anything, sometimes even using just water as in his "Saumon a L'Unilateral?

[cabrales]

Robert is right that Loiseau may be a better choice because of the "cuisine of water". While I have had satisfying meals there, I wouldn't say that Loiseau's cuisine is particularly wonderful for me. It is a little more rooted in traditional flavors than, for example, Lorain's cuisine.

Here is an excerpt from Loiseau's website, a quote from the LA Times:

"If the culinary world has a King of Water, it would be Bernard Loiseau, chef-patron of the restaurant La Côte d'Or in the tiny Burgundian town of Saulieu. Monsieur Loiseau has coined the term 'La cuisine d'eau' (cuisine of water) to describe his cooking. His goal is food that is free of stocks and cream, base instead on H2O and the natural juices of meats and vegetables. I worked as an apprentice in Loiseau's restaurant. I saw creams and stocks being used there, though on a very limited basis, but Loiseau used water extensively for many purposes, chiefly for consistency."

http://www.atkaliope.com/loiseau/pressBL.html

The chicken Alexandre Dumaine of Loiseau referred to in an earlier post is depicted here:

http://www.bernard-loiseau.com/uk/indexsommaire.htm

(Pick, from the top left hand side, "The Restaurants" -- then pick "The chicken Alexandre Dumaine" -- this is quite intense tasting)

Pan -- On what to say regarding your father, I was thinking that the reference to illness might impress upon the restaurant a bit more the seriousness of the restriction. A reference to health almost makes it seem like he might be cutting down on cholesterol.  But maladie does refer to illness.  

[robert brown]

Cabrales, thanks. I didn't know Loiseau had based so much of his cooking on using water and had given it a name. I ate there about eight years ago and, like you, wasn't blown away. However, given the requirements of Pan's father, you could do a lot worse. I did have a fabulous chicken dish there, the conception of which escapes me. The wine list was also really special.

[cabrales]

The wine list was also really special.

Robert -- I agree. The wine list is both stronger (at least with respect to red wine) and better-priced than that at Loraine's, even though the sommelier at the latter restaurant is the chef's mother (and wife of the former chef). Have any member sampled the local wine produced by the elder Loraine? I saw it offered in the gift shop at Cote Saint-Jacques (quite inexpensive), but it does not appear to be particularly "known".

[Pan]

Thanks, Cabrales and Robert. I've passed this on. You are both damning the place with faint praise, you know. [slightly mischievous smile, not an emoticon I see in the list ]

[cabrales]

Doesn't Bernard Loiseau make it a thing not to use butter in anything, sometimes even using just water as in his "Saumon a L'Unilateral?

The April 2002 edition of Magic Paris furnishes an interview with Loiseau. Below are excerpts:

"Q: What is your life's philosophy?

A: To be able to live in the present, you have to know the past. . . . Using a classical base, I have modernized cooking without forgetting its roots. I eliminated fatty preparations in favor of lighter-based sauces, more refined, more delicate. After the meal, the client feels good. . . . .

Q: What do you think of your sculpture in the Musee Grevin?

A: I am very impressed! At this time, I would like to pay tribute to Paul Bocuse; thanks to this great mean, chefs have become stars. Before no one recognized them. I am a true disciple. What Platini or Zidane have done for soccer, the great chefs have done for cooking. It is necessary to dream, idols hep give birth to vocation!"

Note Loiseau did not pay tribute to the Troisgros, with whom he spent a significant part of his apprenticeship. Jean Troisgros is said to have had hopes for Guy Savoy, but to have said that he himself would become an archbishop (or similar high clergyman) if Loiseau were to become a great chef!  

[pirate]

The Troisgros family is Protestant.

[Bux]

The Troisgros family is Protestant.

Which shows just how far away Jean Troisgros was from becoming an archbishop when that comment was made.

Burgundy Stars, a book about Loiseau, says "Jean, snarled: 'If this kid becomes a cook, I'll be an archbishop!" Apparently this was just after Loiseau mistakenly tossed coals into a pan with salmon instead of the fire box for the stove. William Echikson, the author, notes that Loiseau was treated rather miserably at Troisgros. One of his duties was to prepare food for their dog.