El Bulli--From wonderful to absurd

[Matthew Grant]

I think food can be art but only if it tastes good first.

We're flogging a dead horse here, Me and Spencer think its about food first, art/intellect second, you guys think its about something more than that.

[Jonathan Day]

But our ideas about what tastes good can develop over time. For my children, as with most children, the set of things that taste good started out very small. As they have grown, they have begun to embrace new tastes: complex cheeses, sauces, olives, and the like. They have grown from a focus on the sweet to accepting and appreciating tastes with a bitter component like dark chocolate.

Adults can also learn to broaden their ideas about what tastes good.

Some things are genuinely disgusting, at least to most people, and this does not change with time. Other tastes (or taste-texture pairings) seem odd at first, but we learn to appreciate them with experience and a bit of patience. It is easy to caricature Adria as presenting dishes that are "not food" or that taste bad, but that, if your IQ is high enough, you somehow manage to enjoy. This is false. He does challenge our assumptions about what goes with what, and about what form foods come in. But these assumptions deserve to be challenged, just as my daughter's learning to enjoy pasta with something other than ketchup is an important step in the development of her sensibilities.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I think food can be art but only if it tastes good first.

No you don't. The conditionality of this utterance denies that it can be Art on its own terms.

This is not a problem by the way, there is nothing controversial about your attitude.

Chef/Writer, I'd like you to demonstrate that you are able to recognize creativity. If you don't feel up to it, then please desist with your demagogy.

[macrosan]

I'm a neutral here ... I have to be, because I've never been to El Bulli. But I have been to The Fat Duck and enjoyed it, and I understand there are distinct similarities in concept. I find the recent posts here fascinating, because they present two seemingly irreconcilable positions.

First, the proposition that the El Bulli experience is not a culinary experience of worth, and that perhaps Adria is taking the mickey out of his clients. This is the classic "emperor's clothes" argument, which is in some senses a self-proving argument.

Second, the proposition that people who do not find that experience of worth are de facto closed of mind, or lacking in artistic appreciation. This is also a self-proving argument which has been much discussed at eGullet under many guises.

Well here is an interesting challenge for both sides.

Just suppose for a moment that the other side's argument might be true, how then would you then distinguish their truth from yours ? Because it seems to me that both propositions would look exactly the same. In which case, is the "truth" determinable ? Is this not just a case for "belief" ? And if so, cannot both propositions live side by side, each of equal merit ?

Edited June 4, 2003 by macrosan (log)

[thelastsupper]

I don't disagree with the position held by Matthew Grant and Chef/writer Spencer. When I go out to a restaurant to dine I want the food to taste good. I think the main sticking point of the argument lies in Matthew's being burned:

I don't know why we are trying to make this so intellectual, at the end of the day, I went to this restaurant to have an outstanding meal and left desperately disappointed. I went along full of expectation and I certainly didn't expect to leave feeling the way I did.

I felt the same way about Commerç 24. But I don't think that Abellan has much concern about what he's doing other than becoming the darling of Barcelona's beautiful people.

I was suggesting that perhaps El Bulli is seeking a redefinition of the idea of "restaurant" or "dining," one that reevaluates the common building blocks by which we understand and "own" our cuisine. This is what I meant by formal elements. Certainly taste is one of these elements, but tastes can be manipulated (and made strange) by changing the expected structure of the dish.

I was curious at Matthew's reactions to the "tricks" on the menu. The transformations or instructions seemed to grate on his nerves. As I read it, the wine service seemed insufferable, as did the lack of good flavor. But the new flavors that Matthew enjoyed were presented in new forms also, which didn't seem to bother him, for example: "brioche pasta." I was hoping for a more in-depth description/discussion of the formal elements of the meal. I was also curious about what he thought about the idea of the restaurant as a "sham" or a new form itself . . . we already know that Spencer doesn't like foam, that isn't going anywhere else--

I don't push an idea of "truth." It doesn't seem that LML does either. Consequently, my idea of art is much more mutable than you might suspect. As ballast/regime mentioned in his careful post earlier in the thread, many artists do not believe in the idea of art as a dead thing. Art is married with life and with craft, be it banal or sublime, momentary or meditative. Matthew's Bulli experience is over, but that doesn't mean his reflections upon it have to be. And dialogue about those reflections. That is what this board is all about, right?

[Jonathan Day]

I find the recent posts here fascinating, because they present two seemingly irreconcilable positions.

First, the proposition that the El Bulli experience is not a culinary experience of worth, and that perhaps Adria is taking the mickey out of his clients. This is the classic "emperor's clothes" argument, which is in some senses a self-proving argument.

Second, the proposition that people who do not find that experience of worth are de facto closed of mind, or lacking in artistic appreciation. This is also a self-proving argument which has been much discussed at eGullet under many guises.

Actually, I don't think that's an accurate summary of the recent argument.

One proposition was, in essence, "I didn't enjoy my meal at El Bulli, therefore it is a bad restaurant", i.e. one that delivers food that most people would agree doesn't taste good, whether or not it is intellectually interesting.

(I'll skip the comments from those who have not dined at El Bulli).

The second proposition was, "Granted that you didn't enjoy your meal at El Bulli. This could have happened for more than one reason. It could be that El Bulli is a bad restaurant in the sense outlined above. It could be that your palate was not up to appreciating the restaurant, or that you fell into the trap of "tasting with the mind instead of the mouth" because a description of a dish or its appearance was off-putting. Or it could be that the restaurant was having an off night."

I'll add that there is a thin line between the third possibility and the first. A great restaurant should only very rarely have an "off night". If this happens with any frequency at all, El Bulli deserves to lose its reputation and its associated stars.

[Rachel Perlow]

Re: "bleeding edge of a trendy post-Adria backlash.  A has-been parody that never was"

Yes.  The 2001 season saw a deluge of media-attention and the full hysterical force of the media-circus…Hundreds of renowned chefs finally made the trip during this season-not just those listed (for instance) in Dornenburg/Page's new book.  One unfortunate upshot of this "American" invasion may be the decision to close for lunch and serve only one meal per day.  Apparently they founded the rhythm of serving late lunches to Europeans (decent Spaniards don't dine before 9) and continuing on (virtually without a break) to serve early dinners to Americans too punishing.

Just a reminder that Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page are online for an eGullet Q&A right now.

[Salmorejo]

I hate El Bulli.

I am spanish, I live in Madrid, Spain. I only have been once at El Bulli, some years ago, 2 or 3. I thought it was really fantastic and it was for me a new concept of food. Its really the best restaurant I ever been.

But from then, el Bulli and its 3 Michelin 'stars', a lot of spanish restaurants try to be El Bulli, lots of spanish chefs think they can be so good as Ferran Adrià.

The results:

1. a lot of spanish restaurants doing 'new like el bulli cuisine' have increase the price 200% ( euro contributed, of course) and more, "..If Adrià do it why not me ?"

2. the food in a lot of spanish restaurants is all the same, a lot of 'espumas', sorbetes, and texture tricks; its just boring.

3. A lot of spanish chefs thinking of they are not simply chefs, they are 'something more', they como to your table like saying, you, poor client, you don't understand my work, you don't worth beeing here.

4. The traditional cooking and the first class materials cooking is beeing forgotten by all these 'masters'

Salud.

[paulbrussel]

I am afraid I can't completely agree with you. A couple of weeks ago I went to 8 restaurants in BCN and only one was really Adrià-like cooking (Comerç 24). All the others were not Adrià-like at all, although modern influences were present (as it should be).

Furthermore, I can't agree on the prices either. Being used to good restaurants, I think my meals in BCN were extremely cheap compared to those in two or three star restaurants in the Benelux, not to mention the awfully expensive similar restaurants in Paris.

Thirdly, since the wines are extremely cheap in Spain as well, a meal with wines won't cost you a fortune as it does elsewhere.

[Schneier]

Adria is cooking a James Beard dinner in New York in November. I'll be there, and I'll post my review then.

Bruce

[edm]

Edited October 13, 2003 by edm (log)

[Schneier]

Actually, I lied. He's an honoree at the dinner. He's not cooking.

Bruce

[Bux]

Coming to Donostia from Paris, I can't say the inflation is anywhere near as great as in France. Nevertheless, it's not fair to hate Adria for the fault of others. Also, I am hardly an expert on Spanish food--new or old--but I see a lot of creativity that is original, and I see just as many foams in France as in Spain.

[pedro]

Does any of you have an opinion on how reliable Rachel cook is?. Just by chance, I've found an article from her on El Bulli, El Bulli on The Observer. It looks like she didn't enjoy her meal there.

[tan319]

Does any of you have an opinion on how reliable Rachel cook is?. Just by chance, I've found an article from her on El Bulli, El Bulli on The Observer. It looks like she didn't enjoy her meal there.

Damn!

She was rather horrified, no?

Maybe too many Sunday 'Roasts' for her...

[Joe H]

Despite the euphoria on this board I know of at least four people who would not go back to El Bulli if the meal were free. There was also a post from Lizzee perhaps a year ago on here where she related a story of an experience there with two famous chefs, one of whom swore he would not return the second day although he was to be the guest of honor. I met that man along with the other chef at the table. They both thought that the restaurant was a joke. Not only did Lizzee not exaggerate rather she understated their real opinions. Both of these, by the way, are James Beard Award winners. Their opinions also played a role in my wife and I deciding not to go to El Bulli when we cancelled our reservation in April. Since then I've read with true interest all on this board who have raved about their own experiences much in the way that the writer couldn't believe those sitting across from her eating rabbit brains and figuratively moaning while they were doing it. El Bulli for these four seems to have justified its exalted status with extreme instances of sensorial challenge, often forgetting that most people require a dish to taste GOOD as a prerequisite.

No, I have not been. But after what seems to be an accurate recounting of the experience the four others had I no longer feel the need. There are other restaurants that I will continue to cross an ocean for. El Bulli is not one of them.

[pedro]

Joe, I fully respect your position. I know more than one chef in Spain that also believes El Bulli is a joke.

Nevertheless, I'd like to say that brains is used in some very traditional spanish dishes, where it plays the starring role.

I visited El Bulli in 1999, and didn't find a disgusting dish in the whole menu. In fact, they asked beforehand if we have any problems with some ingredients, like oysters, foie, barnacles. I refused to have monkfish liver, and my wife skipped the barnacles. I suppose they continue to do that, so there's no need to have rabbit brains if you don't fancy them (although I believe that this year were serving rabbits tongues, not brains).

On the whole, I wouldn't define the experience as challenging. It was very pleasant, and sometimes surprising. From all the noise I heard before, I was expecting a much more radical approach, and I found respect for the ingredients.

As a summary, when possible, I prefer to form my opinion based on my own experience. So, I'll try to return to El Bulli.

[estufarian]

I believe that this year were serving rabbits tongues, not brains

I can confirm it was brains.

And ears (in a different dish).

And that was about all the 'meat' that was served. So any meat and potatoes types would certainly feel deprived.

And Joe, judge for yourself. Give it a try. Not everything works, but you'll try things that nobody else (that I know of) is coming close to attempting. It is very (perhaps too) cerebral, but flavour is NOT compromised.

The price of the meal is a bargain by world standards. And it's not too far from Can Fabes, which I know you'll return to.

[Bux]

Their opinions also played a role in my wife and I deciding not to go to El Bulli when we cancelled our reservation in April.

I can't say it was your loss of a pleasurable evening, just your loss the chance to see for yourself what the fuss is all about and the chance to judge the food and the chef for yourself. We all have to know ourself and for you, these things may not have the importance they have for me. I take some pleasure in being opinionated about food, but in order for me to express an opinion, I need experience to draw on.

El Bulli, may not be my favorite restaurant in the world, but rabbit brains seems an odd dish to attract attention there. It seems the kind of thing I'd find elsewhere in a country that seems to savor offal meats. The preparation might attract a comment, but not simply the presence.

There are many restaurants I'd cross the ocean for and El Bulli is one in which I've really gotten a huge bang for my buck. I'm eager to return a third time. It's a recommendation I make carefully and with great caveat, however. It's not for everyone, but it should be a must for a serious diner who wants to have an opinion about contemporary food. To dismiss an interest in dining there seems to indicate a limited interest in food.

I've learned not to let myself miss opportunities by listening too carefully to negative opinions. Tell me it's a loaded bomb and out of fear for my life, I won't go near it, but tell me it's a pretentious restaurant and the food is a joke, and I'm willing to risk a bad meal in return for the chance I'll have a great meal. My budget is probably small for people who eat at the places I love, but I'm still willing to risk the price of a dinner. This attitude was reinforced recently when two reasonable members here expressed very negative opinions about a restaurant near San Sebastian. Their reviews were so bad that we almost cancelled our reservations. We went and had the best meal of the trip there. I'm sure there's someone out there who read those two reviews and is telling friends to avoid the place like the plague though he, himself, has never eaten there.

[Joe H]

Estufarian, thanks for remembering that Can Fabes was a truly memorable meal for me! Pedro, I also appreciate your comments. But while I'm adventurous there are some limits and I am really quite guilty of prejudging, based on the opinions of several, that El Bulli is probably not for me. My real problem here is that the two chefs I mentioned I feel are as good in their own way as anyone on earth. From each I have tasted dishes that were intense, satisfying, damn near orgasmic they were so hauntingly delicious. Knowing that THEIR sense of taste seems to be similar to mine (based on having eaten a great deal of their cuisine) I'm projecting a similar reaction to El Bulli on my part. But there are also others. There are two on this and anther board that I have corresponded with privately over the past year or so that were not fully enamored with El Bulli. I have a great deal of respect for both of their opinions based on what I believe to be their taste. In both cases it seems to be close to mine. I also believe there are some who are also blinded by the opinions of others and too, perhaps, intimidated to disagree if they really believe that others may be inaccurate in their own evaluation. Finally, for me, as I've noted whether it's a hamburger or foam it has to taste good. That is the beginning and end of everything for me. Texture, temperature, contrast of all kinds: all of this is wonderful IF IT TASTES GOOD. Still, for everything I have read in the 200+ pages of this topic I have seen nothing to convince me that there is anything happening at El Bulli that is going to provide the pleasure of taste that I could find at, say, a bbq pit in Luling, Texas or one of five of what I would call "Great Dishes" at El Raco de Can Fabes on a night when a Michelin two starred chef sat at an adjoining table and we were served everything he was served for almost 4 hours. In fact for everything that I have read on this and other boards, books and magazines about El Bulli the focus is not about tasting something that is one of the great pleasures of one's life. Rather it's about a new level of sensorial experience.

For me it's about taste. Nothing more, nothing less. At 56 years of age when someone tells me about the best restaurant they ever went to I immediately assume that this is THE BEST TASTING MEAL that they ever had. Never do I assume that it is a sensorially challenging or awakening event. I judged Robuchon, Santimaria, Ducasse and a whole host of restaurants, chefs and home cooks over the years on what their food/cuisine tasted like. I'm not going to change. If I'm going to cross an ocean I'll go back to Le Calandre and Ambrasciata (December), Gagnaire, Christian Constant & others(January) or a 2000 year old furnace west of Genoa & Baldin in the spring. There may be some experimentation at several of these but overall I know that most of what I will eat will taste really good. And will not challenge me. I'm just not about "food" that challenges me.

[Joe H]

Bux, just a quick comment but when I make value judgments about where to eat whether in the U. S., Europe or elsewhere it is based on what I read (I'm VERY good at doing research), what the menu tells me, what reviewers describe, comments on this and other boards and so forth. Since this topic was started 170 or so posts ago I feel that I have learned enough about El Bulli that it is not the type of restaurant that I would typically like. I do travel to Barcelona on business every year. Having said this there have been a number of posts that have led me to research on five or six restaurants that I would really like to seek out and explore. All of them seem exactly like the kind of place that I really will like. For me-and perhaps for no one else on here-El Bulli sounds exactly like a waste of calories and a waste of money as well as a waste of my time (perhaps the restaurant's wasting a table on me, too!). Much of my criticism is based on what I think I will like. When my comments go beyond my own personal taste it is because I seem to think the rules of the games (so to speak) are changing. Now we are no longer into taste but into sensorial discovery. But, again, there's nothing wrong with sensorial discovery. But what I'm discovering must taste good. Too many people have told me that there are many things at El Bulli that do not taste good. I'll stay in or near Barcelona on my next trip. A year ago I wanted to have dinner at El Bulli very bad. (Frankly, it was also a compettion to "get in.") Today, with what I have learned from several whose opinions I trust, I have lost interest.

[marcus]

I can confirm it was brains.

And ears (in a different dish).

And that was about all the 'meat' that was served. So any meat and potatoes types would certainly feel deprived.

And Joe, judge for yourself. Give it a try.

At my meal this year, we had rabbit brains, no ears, but there was a lamb dish with Thai spices, that had a very substantial piece of meat, considering that the menu was composed of about 30 courses. The taste of the rabbit brains was distinct, but refined and quite good.

El Bulli is definitely worth a try, I personally find that chefs are the last people (a bit of an exaggeration, but not much) that I would look to for recommendations, they often have the most rigidly formed opinions, considering the time and effort that they have put into arriving at their own approaches.

To summarize, my wife hated the meal, she could have written Matthew Grant's review verbatim, but although I can't say that I liked it, I also didn't feel that I understood it completely, and would like to try again. What I can say is that the visual values had primacy over flavors. At the most extreme was the apple caviar that was beautiful and looked just like caviar, but had no taste. I also found too much repetition within the meal, possibly just an instance of poor dish selection for this particular menu. In particular similar strong citrus flavors kept recurring, which became boring. There were also two dishes based on a quail egg, an appetizer and a desert, but both were sweet, and although they were two of the best dishes of the evening, it was really one quail egg too many.

[Bux]

Joe, a lot of our differences, at least when choosing restaurants, boil down to curiosity and risk. Quite frankly, I have a great curiosity and I enjoy that kind of risk--I'm not much for skydiving, bungie jumping or nibbling on wild mushrooms in the forest. We both know our own tastes and interests and others who understand our prejudices can best use what we post here for themselves.

As much as I seem to be arguing for you to eat at El Bulli, I appreciate your comment about wasting a table at the restaurant. Unfortunately I know of too many people who want to eat there because it's in the news or they think it's fashionable. I'm left in the peculiar position of really wanting to chase people away from El Bulli, yet somehow feeling an obligation to expose those I think are really interested in food at some deep level.

For what it's worth, I'm often asked which is better, El Bulli or Can Fabes, and I'm hard pressed to answer without making some qualifications. There's no doubt Can Fabes would meet the Zagat popularity test a lot quicker, but I just find them hard to compare. I've also no doubt a good barbeque pit in Texas would outscore the French Laundry in the right circles. I would not want to compare them. I don't have much first had experience with really good barbeque, but I'd not find it surprising to learn someone yearns for bbq the way others yearn for the French Laundry, or that one person might want both with the same passion. El Bulli is just another realm of taste. Because much of what Adria does is outside traditional cuisine and often challenges preconceived assumptions of taste, some of what he does may not "taste good" the first time. Other things make you ask why you never thought of the combination. Even the challenging dishes had a curious appeal that belied their distance from comfort food. There is risk though. There's a risk similar to that of dining in a superb restaurant in any foreign culture where there may be a dish that's evolved over hundreds of years pleasing the indigenous taste buds, but without offering any pleasure to yours. What struck me about El Bulli was that when I had a dish that didn't appeal, I was still left with the feeling that the dish was thoroughly developed and mature. Gagnaire leaves me with the same impression, although I've met serious food lovers whose taste I respect, who have hated his food. There are any number of "fusion" chefs who food leaves me with the impression the chef got a bright idea in the morning and served the first rendition to me.

You're probably right in not wanting to go there, but it's my nature to encourage people to expand their range of food interests. I can assure you I was much narrower in my appreciation of food outside the range of traditional haute cuisine 25 years ago.

[robert brown]

It's my hunch that people convince themselves they can do without going to el Bulli so they won't feel bad if they can't get a reservation. I mean the guy's the hottest thing going in the food world. He must enter nearly every discussion that people have about international restaurants. Not to at least try to get in is an oversight unless you want to be guaranteed to participate in those discussions in a vacuum.

[Joe H]

I cancelled our reservation. It was not an issue of not being able to get in. (At the time I had several posts on here of how I got in. Also, I don't know of a single person on either here or Chowhound who contacted them in the first hour or two of the first day and did NOT get in. It was widely publicized on both boards. Those who contacted them later in the first day or second did not receive a confirmation. But again, there must have been fifteen or more between the two boards who DID get in. If we're talking about challenges for reservations then perhaps we should talk about Eiginsinn Farm north of Toronto which I personally have found more difficult to get into than either El Bulli or the French Laundry (yes, I'v been)) Also, travelling 35-40 days a year in Europe on business it was not an issue of being able to get there. This isn't about that. It's about the best restaurant in the world having food that tastes good. My value judgment. Nothing more. Nothing less. As for participating in discussions I'm not going to be much of a participant if my values include food tasting good and others have values that focus on sensorial challenges and "getting in" along with who is "hot" and who isn't. Further, some of the "food" that is presented at El Bulli is beginning to approach some of the, for me, bizarre and repulsive dishes found in parts of Indonesia, China and Vietnam. I simply have no interest in any of this nor of being at a table where it is served. There is a 300+ course Chinese banquet that lasts three or more days and may feature live a monkey. THAT would be sensorially challenging. I can't imagine monkey brains, bat, bear's paw, etc. tasting good. At least not by my standards. No, El Bulli isn't there yet. But for him to continue to come up with something new, constantly searching new levels, new "challenges," new textures, is this really such a leap? Frankly, from what I've read doesn't he already have elements of it? At least the author for the Observer seems to think so.

And this may be just the point: for the first several years he was fantastically successful and justly rewarded in the press for this. But overtime, faced with new challenges, new levels, perhaps he is being forced in a direction that for some crosses a line. Rabbit's brains lined up in a row don't seem to have a lot in common with foam and test tubes. I really don't need to sit at a table and take a bite-or even look at it-to know that I'm not interested. There are many restaurants that others have liked, perhaps have liked a lot, that for me have very little interest. The Observer article only confirmed what Lizzee reported in starting this whole several hundred page thread. For me.

Of course when Eiginsinn Farm is noted as the number one restaurant in the world by someone (it's already top ten in the world for several) there will be a real rush to try to get into it. At least they serve real food that tastes good as does the French Laundry.