El Bulli--From wonderful to absurd

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I think it's the opposite, I think he bared his culinary soul to you and you didn't like it. Fair enough, but you have experienced the mysterious outer limits of dining, and that alone makes it worth the trip.

Statements like this concern me. Hey you went all the way to Disneyland and all rides were fucked up but you actually made it from Seattle by foot--you should be thankful to pay for the priveledge of being on such hallowed ground. Come on Lord.

With all the respect due to one published in Restaurant Edge, I think you have misunderstood me.

What you Matthew Grant has experienced is unique. It doesn't bear comparison with anything else extant.

Matthew has had the opportunity to gambol in the fields of Adria's imagination. He didn't like it. This may or may not be germane.

My point is that Adria has earned some effort on the part of the diner, and Matthew should at least show some equanimity if he wants his views to be taken seriously.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I think it's the opposite, I think he bared his culinary soul to you and you didn't like it. Fair enough, but you have experienced the mysterious outer limits of dining, and that alone makes it worth the trip.

Statements like this concern me. Hey you went all the way to Disneyland and all rides were fucked up but you actually made it from Seattle by foot--you should be thankful to pay for the priveledge of being on such hallowed ground. Come on Lord.

With all the respect due to one published in Restaurant Edge, I think you have misunderstood me.

What you Matthew Grant has experienced is unique. It doesn't bear comparison with anything else extant.

Matthew has had the opportunity to gambol in the fields of Adria's imagination. He didn't like it. This may or may not be germane.

My point is that Adria has earned some effort on the part of the diner, and Matthew should at least show some equanimity if he wants his views to be taken seriously.

LML,

Those big words elude my Restaurant Edge published self. Maybe I'm not that smart. The facade has been lifted. Again, I feel better. Thanks.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Chef/Writer,

On viewing Mark Rothko and Piet Mondrian's polychromatic abstract expressionism, would you draw the conclusion that:

I don't like it.

Neither do I like shit.

Therefore abstract impressionism is shit?

Part of the reason that Matthew Grant wasn't able to appreciate El Bulli, is Matthew Grant.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Hey Alfred E. Newman Einstein,

My position is dirt dug and clear. If it tastes like shit then what worth does it have. It's food, not art, not something to be intellectualized into favor. Adria is a brilliant chef, no doubt, but like the old saying goes..."you're only as good as your last plate." Chef's burn out their own concepts all the time. If you're suggesting that M. Grant's own curmudgeon-like predispositions caused him to, in effect, not give Adria a fair shake then I can't argue with you, but you seem all ready to point to that as the only thing it could be...that would make you somewhat of a Adrian sycophant in my book.

[Bux]

I don't, in fact, know if Adria bared his soul to anyone that night, nor can I confirm El Bulli is not Disneyland--I have not been to Disneyland. I can say I've been very cautious in recommending El Bulli to anyone. I have been since before I ever ate there. From what I had read from Adria's fans and from those puzzled by the food, it was obvious it was not for every diner.

I'm sorry Matthew was one of those who probably shoudn't have gone. From the dissappointment expressed, I have to wonder if he read what's been written here about the meals rather than the unimportant part about whether anyone liked his meal or not. A lot of Adria's food is not to "my taste," but I am eager to return a third time because I am impressed by what he is doing.

Spencer you seem to also dismiss the fact the Robert Brown is a curmudgeon (and so am I) and he appreciated El Bulli. Even a curmedgeon needs a legitimate cause to raise a legitimate complaint. Assuming the food tasted like shit to Matthew, why do you think, from his review, that the food will taste like shit to you.

[Matthew Grant]

It wasn't that Adria's food wasn't to my taste, I am happy to admit that there was lots of clever technique. My problem lay with the fact that it all tasted so ordinary. The lack of enthusiasm in my half of the dining room seemed quite obvious.

Can somebody please tell me what is clever or soul bearing about calling a beansprout a false chip? I believe that I missed the best of El Bulli, maybe he's just having an off year and the new dishes aren't that mind blowing?

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I can say I've been very cautious in recommending El Bulli to anyone. I have been since before I ever ate there. From what I had read from Adria's fans and from those puzzled by the food, it was obvious it was not for every diner.

I'm sorry Matthew was one of those who probably shoudn't have gone. 

A lot of Adria's food is not to "my taste," but I am eager to return a third time because I am impressed by what he is doing.

Assuming the food tasted like shit to Matthew, why do you think, from his review, that the food will taste like shit to you.

Oh Bux, you're makin' it easy...

So you say that alot of Adria's food is not to your taste, that only a certain "type" of person can enjoy his food? Is El Bulli about food to you or is it about an epic ride on the David Copperfield Express? You shouldn't have to be a certain "type" of person to enjoy El Bulli...talk about an elistist, wack-o, stance. I haven't heard that one. It should be about food, and the pursuit of flavor. If it's all about lozenges, foams, and flash bulb BS to you then it's time to waive the white flag and take your place on the back of the bus.

I have a great amount of disdain for that reasoning (not for Robert Bauxbaum, who I find to be an annoyingly good antagonist), if you can even imply that reasoning has anything to do with it. If we've got a Matthew Grant who, for all of his elistist aristrocratic tendencies, seems like a perfectly good candidate for foodie of the month March 2003 saying that El Bulli sucked I believe him. I don't believe El Bulli sucks in general (not that I've ever been there), but you got to give MG some props for being an intelligent human being...You know Adria's one of my heroes Bux...My point is--which no one here can seem to fathom--that all chef's hit a wall. But they can't quit if they've built their reputations on a certain style, so they have to push on...If you're shooting blanks then the diner will be eating them.

Edited June 1, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Jason Perlow]

The flaw in your argument Spencer, is that MANY respected foodies and professional critics have visited El Bulli recently and enjoyed it, if not at a bare minimum appreciated Adria's talents. Just because Matthew didn't like it doesn't make it not exceptional or creative or indictative of Adria being off his game.

Personally, I can't imagine liking most of Adria's stuff, but I've never been there and I have very conservative and classical tastes in food preparations -- this however, does not mean that Adria's food is "bad" -- it is simply not to my taste, from reading some of the descriptions of his dishes. Neither is most of the stuff coming from Thomas Keller -- but I haven't been to his restaurant either. Matthew, like me and everyone else, is entitled to his taste. However, one cannot deny that he is currently one of the most cutting edge and influential chefs in all of Europe, and to say that Adria is "off" because one foodie says he didn't enjoy it is purely flawed logic.

Taste is subjective. We've had this argument on this site with some pretty thick headed people about 5000 times, and every time we've arrived at the same circular futile results.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

The flaw in your argument Spencer, is that MANY respected foodies and professional critics have visited El Bulli recently and enjoyed it, if not at a bare minimum appreciated Adria's talents. Just because Matthew didn't like it doesn't make it not exceptional or creative or indictative of Adria being off his game.

Personally, I can't imagine liking most of Adria's stuff, but I've never been there and I have very conservative and classical tastes in food preparations -- this however, does not mean that Adria's food is "bad" -- it is simply not to my taste, from reading some of the descriptions of his dishes. Neither is most of the stuff coming from Thomas Keller -- but I haven't been his restaurant either. Matthew, like me and everyone else, is entitled to his taste. However, one cannot deny that he is currently one of the most cutting edge and influential chefs in all of Europe, and to say that Adria is "off" because one foodie says he didn't enjoy it is purely flawed logic.

Taste is subjective. We've had this argument on this site with some pretty thick headed people about 5000 times, and every time we've arrived at the same circular futile results.

I'm not saying El Bulli sucks dude. I'm trying to get Mr. Grant some props for having a valid opinion. Because all you food gods all loved el Bulli may speak to the notion of a collective unconscienousness. The difference between Keller and Adria from what I've seen lies in consistency of perfection. Keller repeatedly nails the thing. Adria takes bolder moves and often ends up ass down on the carpet. But I'm not here to crack on Ferran. I bet I'd go and a have a world-class meal.

[Jason Perlow]

Adria takes bolder moves and often ends up ass down on the carpet

Substantiate this, please.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Adria takes bolder moves and often ends up ass down on the carpet

Substantiate this, please.

I can only say refer to all of the reports about The French Laundry...

Then read all of the reviews of el Bulli. The numbers don't lie. And as for Adria having more bold moves than Keller I say DUH?...

[Joe H]

Really interesting thread.

I've been to the FL twice.

This past April I e-mailed El Bulli and cancelled a reservation for their second week because my wfie didn't want to travel with the war going on. Literally we were going to travel from Washington, D. C. to Roses for dinner. But we did the same to Napa Valley. Twice.

I have now read four negative reports about El Bulli. Two of these are from food professionals, one the best Italian chef that I know, another a great internationally recognized French chef. Somehow, I am inclined to believe that El Bulli impresses many people but for those who really care what something tastes like, something that can be classified as "food," then El Bulli is not for you.

The French Laundry is, indeed, excellent. Still I honestly believe that exclusivity and the difficulty of getting into it plays into those who judge it as the "best." It is outstanding but I am not so sure that I would describe it as America's best.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I'm not the gloating kind luckily.

[Jason Perlow]

Adria takes bolder moves and often ends up ass down on the carpet

Substantiate this, please.

I can only say refer to all of the reports about The French Laundry...

Then read all of the reviews of el Bulli. The numbers don't lie. And as for Adria having more bold moves than Keller I say DUH?...

My request regarding substantiation of your statement was in reference to the "often ends up ass down on the carpet" part, Spencer. If you are going to make a blanket statement like that, I think we'd like to see some empirical evidence supporting it.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Oh I understood that just fine. If by empirical you mean experienced first-hand and then personally evaluated then I again plead ignorance. My retort was based on the opinions of a lot of el Bulli patrons who have posted on this website. No dude, I can't weigh the merits of Keller's food, his metier, his execution against Adria's but I can see a pattern. When people talk shit about Keller it usually involves not living up to an insurmountable hype but still being close to the top of the pops. When people shit talk Ferran Adria it's because they didn't like his food. There's no bias on my part here.

[Bux]

Ever watch Tony step off the boat and eat some stuff, that wouldn't even qualify as road kill here. I mean stuff most of us would step on and sweep up. He eats that stuff with relish, or with ketchup or soy sauce. I'm not convinced he finds it all delicious, but I am convinced he finds it fascinating and is enjoying the opportunity set before him. I am also convinced the guy sitting on the stool behind him finds it delicious. When I was fourteen, I knew exactly what food should taste like. I went to friends' houses and their mothers didn't know what food should taste like. Even my own mother got too carried away at times and tried to get me to eat new things, but I knew that if I hadn't had it already, it wasn't going to be delicious. At some point in my life, I was converted. Learning to appreciate new foods was interesting. When I travel, I don't look for the foods I love, I look for the ones I don't know.

At opposite points of the globe, people are devouring things that are great delicacies to them, but might taste like shit to the guy at the other point. So I don't much care to hear that something tastes like shit to some guy because it only says maybe he he hasn't learned to appreciate it yet. Not liking the flavor, or not finding the flavor others find in a dish tells me very little about the dish. I'm sure we've all got an aunt or uncle we could sit down in a Thai restaurant and have him proclaim the food looks and tastes like dog shit, but if he had half a brain, he'd understand that somehere on this planet, that's what the people eat and they wouldn't trade it for steak, foie gras and truffles.

Eating at El Bulli may seem like dinner on a foreign planet, but every dish that appeared in each of my two dinners, seemed as if it was the end result of a long process of evolutionary development. I though Adira nailed each course. A few were not to my taste. I can learn to develop my taste. The level of expertise and finesse that went into the meals I had, demanded that I learn. At the heart of the matter may be that I saw serious labor intensive cooking and Matthew saw only clever technique.

There's one fallacy in that last paragraph, but it's only that Adria keeps reminding you of your home planet by making clever references to the food you knew.

Michael Lewis's art analogy isn't unreasonable. One can continue to criticise any number of schools of modern art for not holding to the laws of perspective, or just accept that those artists have changed the course of art history by the number of younger artists they influenced directly and indirectly. Adria's influence is already a fact. He need not leave a signature dish nor need his dishes be immitated for him to have an important place in history. If you don't believe that food has to be interesting as well as tasty, why is it that you don't have the same food every night.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I can learn to develop my taste. The level of expertise and finesse that went into the meals I had, demanded that I learn. At the heart of the matter may be that I saw serious labor intensive cooking and Matthew saw only clever technique.

There's one fallacy in that last paragraph, but it's only that Adria keeps reminding you of your home planet by making clever references to the food you knew.

Michael Lewis's art analogy isn't unreasonable. One can continue to criticise any number of schools of modern art for not holding to the laws of perspective, or just accept that those artists have changed the course of art history by the number of younger artists they influenced directly and indirectly. Adria's influence is already a fact.

Food, first and foremost should taste good. It shouldn't challenge you to accept it. Food's inanimate sitting there on your plate. How dare it make you accept that your taste buds may be flawed.

Keller does the same thing with memory, except in a very classy, personable and almost loving, in the know way. How can you attribute Adria's memory games to anything you can identify with. Even Spanish spring water tastes different that it does in your country. Maybe his food reminds you of a trip to Spain...but....

The concept of food as art is absolute slander to generations and generations of cooks. Food doesn't belong on a canvas, under glass, in a museum. Food is not art. Chefs are not artists. Food is sustenance, and chefs, at their best are clarivoyants. I get real touchy when people call chefs artists. It's an extremely superficial way to think.

[Bux]

Food, first and foremost should taste good. It shouldn't challenge you to accept it.  Food's inanimate sitting there on your plate.  How dare it make you accept that your taste buds may be flawed.

Nevertheless, taste is largely subjective and culturaly derived.

The concept of food as art is absolute slander to generations and generations of cooks.  Food doesn't belong on a canvas, under glass, in a museum.  Food is not art.  Chefs are not artists.  Food is sustenance, and chefs, at their best are clarivoyants. I get real touchy when people call chefs artists.  It's an extremely superficial way to think.

Nonesense. First, El Bulli is nothing but a restaurant. One need not get involved in whether food is art or not. It is certainly not slanderous to any chef to note that his food can be further appreciated by discussion it with one's tablemates. Such is the food of Adria that it stimulates discussion at the table in a manner I had not yet experienced. Of course that is dependant on the company at the table. If I recall Robert and Jonathan's TDG article, they reached much the same conclusion. The meal stimulates your brain as much as your taste buds and thus stimulates the conversation. For many of us, that enhances the overall dining experience.

Sure you don't mean to say that it's superficial to bring a deeper meaning to a craft. Painting is painting, architecture is archtecture and cooking is cooking. An intelluctual discussion of the end result of any of those pursuits is not dependent on calling any of them art. Food is sustenance and architecure is a roof over your head. We've had this discussion before and many generations will have it again. Discussing it here will get us nowhere.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Flavor is not an esoteric concept. The rest of this is.

[Bux]

In western cuisine, flavor is usually considered the paramount concern. This is not necessarily true for the Chinese or Japanese when appreciating their own cuisines. Taste is subjective and culturally derived.

Edit-

In western cuisine, flavor is usually considered the paramount concern. This is not necessarily true for the Chinese or Japanese when appreciating their own cuisines. Texture may be as important as flavor, and a lighter less concentrated flavor may be considered preferrable. This is why I say taste is subjective and culturally derived.

Edited June 1, 2003 by Bux (log)

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Taste is subjective and culturally derived.

I believe I was harping the concept of flavor. Taste, of course, is subjective.

[ballast_regime]

Bux:

I wouldn't say taste is culturally dependent, as biologists know that constraints exist on what humans will find edible or not. Taste experts know that most humans are born capable of appreciating any flavor within a range of culturally acceptable flavors (i.e., those that are commonly eaten for nutritive purposes). It is primarly food phobias and dislikes that are "programmed" in the social or psychological sense. But the rest of your arguments are still very much appreciated.

Chef/Writer Spencer:

From what I've read in your posts, your dogmas have remained intact for years, probably for good personal reasons. You hold a number of views that shouldn't go unchallenged, so...

Too much hype and inertia built up surrounding El Bulli to ditch the gimmicks and head back to the classics.

You're basing this assumption on what, exactly? A few Egullet reports? A critical consensus of print food media? If you really investigated the matter, you would probably find the exact opposite of what you posit: El Bulli is one of the few (if only) restaurants in the world that time and again garners more praise than the French Laundry. What's more, it is one of a handful of places that continually struggles to shake itself of its own repertoire and continually try something new. (Please do not say that because foams were present, he was repeating himself. To reduce Adria to foams is silly.)

Is El Bulli about food to you or is it about an epic ride on the David Copperfield Express? You shouldn't have to be a certain "type" of person to enjoy El Bulli...talk about an elistist, wack-o, stance.

The suggestion that El Bulli is a once-in-a-lifetime, singular dining experience goes without saying. I find it inarguable that only "certain 'type'" will appreciate El Bulli, or anything dealing with personal taste. My girlfriend doesn't like tempeh, Type O Negative, Bloom County or Yohji Yamamoto. In fact, most people don't (or wouldn't because they are unfamiliar). Why is El Bulli any different?

[Restaurants] should be about food, and the pursuit of flavor.

According to who, you?

The difference between Keller and Adria from what I've seen lies in consistency of perfection. Keller repeatedly nails the thing.

Every person I know who has dined at El Bulli says the same thing about El Bulli, that the food is flawlessly executed, at least according to its own standards (which is the only way to measure it).

When people talk shit about Keller it usually involves not living up to an insurmountable hype but still being close to the top of the pops. When people shit talk Ferran Adria it's because they didn't like his food.

Again, just because people don't like Adria's cuisine it doesn't mean it wasn't well-prepared. There's no accounting for taste. There's no way I could prepare an onion that would make it acceptable to my girlfriend.

The concept of food as art is absolute slander to generations and generations of cooks. Food doesn't belong on a canvas, under glass, in a museum. Food is not art. Chefs are not artists. Food is sustenance, and chefs, at their best are clarivoyants. I get real touchy when people call chefs artists. It's an extremely superficial way to think.

Funny, since many artists and thinkers believe that art doesn't belong in a museum or on a canvas, that it too is essential to our "sustenance" or well-being, and that defining art as a "stuffy" or "conceptual" endeavor sucks it of any true meaning. To say there's a difference between "art" and "craft" is a false distinction, a binary whose fluidity doesn't hold up in the real world.

I appreciate your thoughts and efforts.

Much peace,

Ian Lowe

ballast/regime

Edited June 1, 2003 by ballast_regime (log)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

There is an element of trust involved in an experience like El Bulli. If you believe that Adria isn't a fake then you're able to eat with an open mind. Matthew Grant perceived something akin to cynicism, and I suppose it was this that coloured his experience.

Nevertheless, it is rather ironic that Matthew Grant should cite the Fat Duck as being a superior realization of this 'type' of cuisine, being as it is, a neutered imitation of the former.

[Tonyfinch]

I do not think Matthew's review was coloured by pre-conceived cynicism or a pre-disposition not to like it. He was clearly surprised and disappointed to dislike it so much. My reading was that he really wanted to like it but honestly found it impossible to do so. And I think he gave clear and rational reasons for his feelings about it.

What I can't quite get is where is all this phenomenal influence Adria is supposed to have had. All right maybe in the use of more gellees and foams and mousses in restaurants, but were'nt top French chefs using these before him? Savoury ice creams? Maybe

But if El Bulli was so influential where are all the other restaurants ploughing a similar furrow to El Bulli? Where are all the other places practicing "molecular gastronomy" and deconstructing everything and serving up 20+ mouthfuls per meal etc? OK-The Fat Duck in the UK and Trio in the US. Is that it?

You know often the avant garde is a reactionary rather than a progressive force. Maybe Adria is not at the leading edge of anything-just a one off- interesting, talented, original- but a one-off nevertheless

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I do not think Matthew's review was  coloured by pre-conceived cynicism or a pre-disposition not to like it.

Neither do I. I was suggesting that Matthew perceived cynicism in El Bulli, and if that were the case I would have no reason to doubt him.

However, Matthew's review is based on the 'formal' elements of the meal and as such his treatment of El Bulli is highly decontextualized. At the risk of sounding extremely pretentious, I feel there's more to Adria's cuisine than the food. For example, its place in the culinary continuum.

A neophyte faced with one of Mark Rothko's 'Black on Maroon' series is limited in the scope of the evaluation he can make to what he can see. But, provided with context the evaluation is likely to be very different.

So, the point I'm trying to make (again) is that although Matthew didn't like the meal, it doesn't follow that the meal was crap. Rather, Matthew's evaluation is limited to only one, albeit fundamental, aspect of the meal.

Adria has approached his cooking as an artist and an intellectual. I believe him to be very truthful in what he does, which is a rare thing these days. For this reason I feel the his work deserves to be approached with a little more intellect than when assessing the local brasserie.