Overhyped culinary scene?

[vserna]

You, as most foreign visitors to the US like Simon, have little idea what it's like to dine out on a regular basis in any one major American city.

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I didn't know you were privy to my life, travels, restaurant experience and ability to judge any culinary scene. I'm amazed at your insight!

Why take it out on me? Michael Steinberger wrote the article, not me. He's an American and I think he lives in the United States.

Please re-read what I wrote: yes, I have been in top-notch restaurants American restaurants that were on auto-pilot lately, and I've been in others that weren't. And, I added, the 'autopilot syndrome' also vastly applies to France (and, if I may add now, to other countries.)

Why do you take offense? Why do you question my qualifications without even knowing who I am or what I do or what I know?

Obviously, I don't live in the US. But I am over there more often than you seem to think - more than 30 days (that's 60 meals...) over the past couple of years, in New York, San Francisco, Baltimore, Las Vegas, Dallas and a few points in between. Having been a long-time foreign correspondent in the United States, a restaurant critic for a measly 24 years and, in addition, a wine producer who sells one third of his production in the US, I am well placed to turn those 60 meals into a decent image (no, not an encyclopedic one... but then who has an encyclopedic knowledge, as Bux says?) of what the current restaurant scene is over there.

Oh! One of my conclusions, from much before this latest, active period of trans-Atlantic commuting (my last meal there was at Boulevard in SF last November), was that one needs to know the restaurants in a really rather small number of American cities to really keep abreast of what's best in the country. It's a huge country, indeed, but if you begin subtracting the Clevelands and the Boises and, yes, the Honolulus, it becomes a bit more manageable.

[Jaymes]

...but if you begin subtracting the Clevelands and the Boises and, yes, the Honolulus, it becomes a bit more manageable.

So, let me see if I understand what you're saying... "It's easier to judge the whole country if you don't judge the whole country."?

Edited January 9, 2005 by Jaymes (log)

[Mabelline]

I want to apologize for any rudeness implied by my post; I am certainly the last person to tailgate someone's opinion. But to me this is a touchy subject not because of a thin skin as much as the overwhelming amount of articles about the abysmal quality, lack of love and skill, and overall wasteland of fine dining in America.

It seems as if there's a stable of chefs who are just waiting to make sweeping statements about American Dining. There are quite a few more we never hear from doing superb jobs.

That stupid Gourmet cover will haunt us for a decade at least.

vserna, you probably could've written a better, more factual article. Here's a real twist: 10 Things A Visitor Likes About The Food In the States. ?

[docsconz]

vserna, you probably could've written a better, more factual article. Here's a real twist: 10 Things A Visitor Likes About The Food In the States.  ?

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I'm sorry, but I must have missed something. What article are you referring to? Victor didn't write any articles addressed here that I have seen. He did post some comments saying that he has experienced some meals at top US restaurants that appeare to have been "on autopilot" as he has in France. Is that really so surprising?

It is one thing to defend the overall state of American gastronomy (which I do not believe he was attacking), but it is quite another to be blind to what is likely not an infrequent occurence. To think that top-end restaurants don't occassionally have nights when they are not firing on all cylinders is ludicrous. They are human too. A sweeping generalization based on a small sample that American Gastronomy is lacking is equally ludicrous. The top end American gastronomy is probably better than it has ever been, even if it does occasionally fire duds, most likely because interest in good eating is probably greater than it has ever been. Each of these facets feeds off the other. Interest rises as quality does and vice versa.

[Mabelline]

I did not imply that Victor had written an article. I meant that he probably is in a better position to write an unbiased and constructive article than that quoted.

I never said he attacked anything. Going by the title of the thread, I figure I am not being too critical to be weary of the same ol', same ol'.

How about finding 10 Articles With A Positive Message? I doubt it can easily be done, because if someone non -native isn't critisizing, wait till another issue, and we'll accomplish it ourselves.

[Bux]

...but if you begin subtracting the Clevelands and the Boises and, yes, the Honolulus, it becomes a bit more manageable.

So, let me see if I understand what you're saying... "It's easier to judge the whole country if you don't judge the whole country."?

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Victor's full statement was

. . . one needs to know the restaurants in a really rather small number of American cities to really keep abreast of what's best in the country. It's a huge country, indeed, but if you begin subtracting the Clevelands and the Boises and, yes, the Honolulus, it becomes a bit more manageable.

He didn't claim to be judging the whole country. If you can make a good case that you won't find the best unless you visit Cleveland, Boise and Honolulu, that's another story. Again, he didn't say the best was only to be found in a small number of cities, only that one could monitor the best in those cities. There have been a number of falsely attributed statements in this thread so far.

How many are qualified to offer an overview of even the best in this large country? How many of those are European. Possibly very few. As misinformed as you may feel Simon was, or is, I've read far accounts about France and other countries in US publications, that seemed to come from writers no better informed about France.

On the whole, it's been my experience that the French tend to denigrate American food and restaurants and that the Spanish tend to overrate our creativity and minimize the lack of attention to detail and technique. Those of course, are generalities and I've posted stories of exceptions. The better French chefs tend to speak well of American tastes, but then again the Americans they meet are the ones who come to their restaurants. A little knowledge is a risky thing on which to base an opinion, but most of us feel the need to have an opinion.

The real story here is not whether Simon was right or wrong, but what did he find and why did he miss what he missed. I'm adding this to my original interest in knowing what he expected to find and the nature of his disappointment. The one thing I've found is that when traveling to one country from another, if you're coming from a country where you like the food and especially if it's the food on which you were raised, or at least educated your palate, it sometimes takes a while to acclimate your tastebuds to another esthetic.

Edit for spelling the spellchecker missed.

Edited January 10, 2005 by Bux (log)

[Jaymes]

By golly, Bux. You're right again. How do you DO it?

[docsconz]

I did not imply that Victor had written an article. I meant that he probably is in a better position to write an unbiased and constructive article than that quoted.

I never said he attacked anything. Going by the title of the thread, I figure I am not being too critical to be weary of the same ol', same ol'.

How about finding 10 Articles With A Positive Message? I doubt it can easily be done, because if someone non -native isn't critisizing, wait till another issue, and we'll accomplish it ourselves.

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Gotcha. It initially came off differently to me.

[FaustianBargain]

that article is plain america-bashing. let us not forget that we are talking about a cultural/culinary teenager here when we consider the young nation of america. certain issues are conscious actions that deserve a knuckle rapping/ass whupping and others issues americaine are merely growing pains. whomever wrote that piece(i got confused re author identity at some point) was very harsh.

my 2 cents.

[vserna]

I did not imply that Victor had written an article. I meant that he probably is in a better position to write an unbiased and constructive article than that quoted.

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Thanks for the vote of confidence, but whatever I can or do write will have a much lesser impact than what the Financial Times (which BTW has a larger circulation in the United States than in the United Kingdom) has published or will publish. As far as the 'Food Media and News' section of eGullet, this should be a significant item for discussion, or so I tought: the Weekend edition of the FT, with its strong food and wine contents (Jancis Robinson, Nicholas Lander, Philippa Davenport et al.) is one of the most influential media in the world of gastronomy. For better or worse. Plus, the names involved here - Michael Steinberger, François Simon, Alice Waters - are not exactly lightweights in said world. BTW, I don't really think the intention of this article was of pure, dumb "America bashing", but of constructive criticism. The author took a number of shortcuts, however, and the result is disappointing.

[wkl]

I've read this article several times now and I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the point is.

It starts with Simon coming to New York to eat at three top tier restaurants and saying "There were some good things, but nothing really fantastic." This appears directly under the title "US leaves a bitter taste".Are we to believe Daniel, Per Se, and Le Bernardin "fell substaintially short of expectations" and fed him "bitter" food.If he is going to make a statement like that there better be some very specific instances to back up this claim.Perhaps, Simon did this in his original article.If so Steinberger should have provided the quotes.

Then Simon drives the "famed" route 66, looking for what exactly?Regional cusine, sampling road side stands, the best Appleby's has to offer?Again, its unclear what Simon was after here?

Then the blanket statement that 95% of Americans eat "merely to live". How do Simon/Steinberegr know this?I know this statement could be attributed to a cliche use of "95%", but it has no place in serious journalism.

The middle of the article claims New York to be "one of the world's finest food cities-in its own way, perhaps even the best". But Simon went 0 for 3 here?

Water's quote "This idea here that we have somehow developed a cuisine....."comes next, but in relation to what?Up to this point the article makes no mention of searching for an American cuisine, and if Simon was, did he try New England clam chowder, Southern Bar B Que, etc?To take it a step further, who has claimed we have developed a cuisine?What publications stated this?I'm not doubting these satements have been made, but where?Again no evidence to back this up.

"Recent visits to New York restaurants have been decidely unmemorable." Visits by whom? Simon?Steinberger?It's just not clear and there are no examples to support this claim.

I don't think this is American bashing so much as mediocre , and perhaps lazy, journalism.

I think this is a interesting thread with the potential for more good discussion.

Edited January 11, 2005 by wkl (log)

[Bux]

I think this is a interesting thread with the potential for more good discussion.

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And the potential probably increases the further we get from the article, although I suppose it might prove interesting not so much to back off the article as to read Simon's original work intact.

Part of the problem is that we've had parts of the discussion about food in American vs. food in France in various guises and various forums that we may be talked out without a new and strong focus to the conversation.

[bandregg]

It bothers me greatly that everyone involved in the original article and a large number of those responding to the discussion about the article seem to think that there is going to be "American Cuisine." I can't even imagine what that is or how one would go about judging it ... "Sadie's carne adovada was good, but it just didn't compare to the clam chowder at the Rockland Chowder House."

[Mabelline]

I have the same problem, in a way, because this is such an enormous continent, and you would no more go to China expecting one Chinese. Then I have a problem with the American Cuisine Label to begin with. If you want to talk American, go back to our first "unexpected guests", who showed up for supper, and never went home. I cannot get next to the statement that American cuisine is a couple hundred years old. The basic recipes were here for a long old time. The introduction of European ingredients improved on the basic foods. And they've been here for nearly 500 years. Same in South America, Central America, and Canada. At the same time, these "old and revered" European recipes usually include a "New World" ingredient that we've known and used a mighty long time.

But to get to the present topic: I get weary precisely because this country, as it is right now, has some exceptional food, some brilliant presenters-who are committed more to their given vocation than to making the generalized and disheartening comments as if they are ashamed they are not chefs in Europe. Wake up and get positive! We all agree, I'm sure, that the culinary Dark Ages of the tv time and 60's food should not have happened, perhaps, but they did, and we are trying every day to get out of that bucket.

[FaustianBargain]

I've read this article several times now and I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the point is.

It starts with Simon coming to New York to eat at three top tier restaurants and saying "There were some good things, but nothing really fantastic." This appears directly under the title "US leaves a bitter taste".Are we to believe Daniel, Per Se, and Le Bernardin "fell substaintially short of expectations" and fed him "bitter" food.If he is going to make a statement like that there better be some very specific instances to back up this claim.Perhaps, Simon did this in his original article.If so Steinberger should have provided the quotes.

[..]

I don't think this is American bashing so much as mediocre , and perhaps lazy, journalism.

Your first quote is precisely the reason I think this is bashing. It is odd that one prefers throwing around unsupported aspersions tending towards negativity instead of ...whachacallit..constructive criticism. it could have been an 'unsatisfactory' meal or a 'disappointing' one...the word 'bitter' is very revealing and loaded...that is exactly why i was put off..

on a related note, i am developing a healthy dislike for all 'food commentators'. do these people even realise what kind of back-breaking, soul-crushing, youth-dissolving work goes behind the dining rooms that serve the food they so casually bitch about with a tap of their fingertips and the flick of their wrists. bitter is the wasted life of your average cook(barely legal to enter a bar, but good enough to work.) with no social life, education or choices..bitter is what lurks behind that subservient waiting staff who has to put up with loathsome 'guests'...bitter is the restaurant owner who keeps a nervous watch over the bottom line worrying about when the ship is going to sink..bitter and pitiable is the chef whose name bears all the laurels but who is also the first one to be pelted by 'criticism' if a fucking garnish is out of place...bitter is NOT a meal at per se or daniel or le bernadin...or anything else we choose to put into our mouths...of course, its always easier to blame america because..well..lets face it..most of the time she deserves it...'most of the time' being the key word...

[wkl]

I've read this article several times now and I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the point is.

It starts with Simon coming to New York to eat at three top tier restaurants and saying "There were some good things, but nothing really fantastic." This appears directly under the title "US leaves a bitter taste".Are we to believe Daniel, Per Se, and Le Bernardin "fell substaintially short of expectations" and fed him "bitter" food.If he is going to make a statement like that there better be some very specific instances to back up this claim.Perhaps, Simon did this in his original article.If so Steinberger should have provided the quotes.

[..]

I don't think this is American bashing so much as mediocre , and perhaps lazy, journalism.

Your first quote is precisely the reason I think this is bashing. It is odd that one prefers throwing around unsupported aspersions tending towards negativity instead of ...whachacallit..constructive criticism. it could have been an 'unsatisfactory' meal or a 'disappointing' one...the word 'bitter' is very revealing and loaded...that is exactly why i was put off..

on a related note, i am developing a healthy dislike for all 'food commentators'. do these people even realise what kind of back-breaking, soul-crushing, youth-dissolving work goes behind the dining rooms that serve the food they so casually bitch about with a tap of their fingertips and the flick of their wrists. bitter is the wasted life of your average cook(barely legal to enter a bar, but good enough to work.) with no social life, education or choices..bitter is what lurks behind that subservient waiting staff who has to put up with loathsome 'guests'...bitter is the restaurant owner who keeps a nervous watch over the bottom line worrying about when the ship is going to sink..bitter and pitiable is the chef whose name bears all the laurels but who is also the first one to be pelted by 'criticism' if a fucking garnish is out of place...bitter is NOT a meal at per se or daniel or le bernadin...or anything else we choose to put into our mouths...of course, its always easier to blame america because..well..lets face it..most of the time she deserves it...'most of the time' being the key word...

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I hear ya but........why the accolades included in the article?Such as:

"...for sheer diversity of fare,both ethnic and regional, there is no better place to pick up a knife than the US."

"New York is unquestionably one of the worlds finest food cities, perhaps the best."

It just confused me.

Sounds like Simon does quite a bit of French bashing also."..and a writer perennially irratated by the complancency of the French culinary establishment."

Do Alice Waters' comments count as American bashing?

I just thought the article was poorly done.

[FaustianBargain]

I just thought the article was poorly done.

agree too.

[Bux]

It bothers me greatly that everyone involved in the original article and a large number of those responding to the discussion about the article seem to think that there is going to be "American Cuisine."

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I have the same problem, in a way, because this is such an enormous continent, and you would no more go to China expecting one Chinese.

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But we all "know" what Chinese food is. Okay, I agree, but what's most interesting about all this to me is that French cooking is hardly a monolith either. In fact the differences between eating in Paris, Lyon and Nice may be greater than between NY, Chicago and LA, and those three French cites have main stream French food. There are strong specialties in each region as well as an almost absolute absence of may foods Americans may think of as French. I recall an American in Provence expressing some surprise that duck wasn't on any of the menus. I'm sorry Simon was disappointed, but we really don't have a lot of insight as to why he was disappointed.

[ghostrider]

I'm sorry Simon was disappointed, but we really don't have a lot of insight as to why he was disappointed.

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Precisely.

And if he's not going to bother to explain why, I'm hardly going to bother to care about his opinions.

[Bux]

I'm sorry Simon was disappointed, but we really don't have a lot of insight as to why he was disappointed.

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Precisely.

And if he's not going to bother to explain why, I'm hardly going to bother to care about his opinions.

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Perhaps, but all we got to read was Steinberger's reaction to what he read. We don't know exactly what Simon said in his original article, which presumably was published in France, in French.