Islam's affect on Cuisine

[bentherebfor]

Interesting (I thought) topic that was brought up at the dinner table the other night:

Islam is a religion that dominates 25% of the worlds population and is dominant not only in the Middle East but also in parts of Africa and South Eastern Asia. How did this Muslim domination affect the cuisine of such areas? (Of course, similar questions could be asked for any religion)

And another question:

Can anyone think of any dishes or recipes that are distinctly Islamic?

[winesonoma]

Pork is cheapest in those areas, Long live BBQ.

[Gifted Gourmet]

collections of Islamic recipes and/or dishes

The Islamic Garden .. a beautiful, informative website ...

Islamic dishes with and without vegetables on this list...

[Chris Cognac]

I think that might need to be looked at as 2 seperate items...Has the "Halal" movement of food had any influence as far as ingredients and what have Islamic food recipe's and chefs done to influence the trends in our food. I think that Islamic and arab food preperation has had a serious impact. The Shwarma, the Kabob or Skewer...flat bread...cooking with yogurt, in a tangine etc....all have affected modern food preperations....I would be remise if I did not add the Indian and Pakastani influence as well..

[Moopheus]

IHow did this Muslim domination affect the cuisine of such areas? (Of course, similar questions could be asked for any religion)

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The Moghul rule of India certainly had a pretty substantial effect on the cuisine of that region.

[Pan]

Bentherebfore, I think this thread may be what you're looking for:

Exploring the Islamic Roots of Curries & Mole, Rachel Lauden in Saudi Aramco World

Enjoy!

[Adam Balic]

From the very little I know it would seem that Islam had an enourmous influence on world cuisine, possibly the largest infact.

Pre-Islam cuisines have been communicated about the world by Islam. A clue to this would be the such things as Persian root words for food items connected food, from Siberia to Southern Asian to Europe. Islamic cultures in Spain and Sicily were instrumental for the introduction of both food stuffs and cooking techniques. Some of the early Italian cook books were infact translations of Islamic texts and in some cases kept there original names.

Aside from these larger themes there is smaller stuff which is interesting, New World chiles were introduced into Eastern Europe (the bits under Turkish influence) via Islamic sources, not from Western Europe. I haven't seen any documentation of this but I would imagine that the introduction of chiles in Asian occured via Islamic traders.

Two excellent books which look at these themes are Clifford A. Wrights "A Mediterranean Feast" and "Medieval Arab Cookery" by Maxine Rodinson and Charles Perry.

[Pan]

[...]I haven't seen any documentation of this but I would imagine that the introduction of chiles in Asian occured via Islamic traders.[...]

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Chilis in Asia?

I would imagine that chilis from the -- ahem! -- Americas were introduced into Europe by Spanish traders. Now, if you're talking about spices (including black pepper) that grew in what's now Indonesia and India, for example, then you have a much better argument for the strong contribution of Muslim traders.

[Adam Balic]

Pan - I think that the usual story for chiles being introduced in Asian* is: From central America and the West Indies to Europe via the Spanish. From Europe to India and some other parts of Asia via the Portuguese. Wider distribution occured via local traders and their well established trade routes. I would imagine that in regions that had a strong Islamic presence, either as a local population or due to trade that the chiles would have been introduced to consumers along with other 'trade spices' which are regulaly associated with Muslim/Islamic traders. Makes a nice story anyway:wink: .

* This often causes problems. I think that due to my Australian origin my default for "Asian" is actually "South-East Asian". Sorry about any confusion.

[Pan]

Yes, the Portuguese had already taken over parts of India (e.g., Goa) and Malacca by the early 16th century. Sure, there were many Muslim traders in the area. OK, whatever. Too tired to argue. All the best,

[Adam Balic]

No you are right*, I am arguing from a position of ignorance. Just because the stuff about the Portuguese is correct, it doesn't follow that the stuff about the Muslim traders is without evidence. I will try to see if there is an information around though, becasue I think it is quite interesting.

*Eek, I think this is a moment of 'personal growth'. Feels funny.

[Swisskaese]

Foods from Muslim countries should not be defined as "Islamic" or "Halal". Yes, there are traditional foods prepared for Muslim weddings, Ramadan, etc., but they are regional dishes (i.e. Lebanese, Moroccan, etc.). Some of the dishes in certain areas (i.e. North Africa, the Gulf) are similar, but they also have different spices based on the area and also based on whether the original recipes came from nomadic tribes or from city dwellers.

Halal refers to the way an animal is slaughtered. It is similar to and borrowed from Kashering an animal.

I think that the Ottoman Empire had a tremendous influence on food. The empire was vast and influenced food in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. They introduced new spices, grilled meats, pastries, stuffed vegetables, kebab, yogurt, yogurt cheese, and much, much more.

Morrocan, Lebanese and Persian food, for example, also have a rich history and are becoming more and more popular, but again they are all different.

I think we would be doing a great injustice to lump all of the Muslim countries into one group and call it "Islamic" food.

It is like asking what is Jewish food or European food. Is Jewish food kugel and gefilte fish? Absolutely not! Is European food Moule et Frites?

Edited December 14, 2004 by Swisskaese (log)

[Adam Balic]

I think we would be doing a great injustice to lump all of the Muslim countries into to one group and call it "Islamic" food.

Good point, but I think that it is possible to take about the influence of pan-Islamic culture on world cuisine without forgeting the specific regional/ethnic foods of the indvidual countries involved. For instance Persia pre-dates Islam. Early Islam took on many aspects of the incoporated Persian empire, including food culture. Through this manner many (but not all) Persian food/cooking techniques were spread much wider afield. The Malay word "laksa" comes from "lakhsha", the Persian word for "noodle" (I think that the root meaning is actually "Slice". In a similar manner the Mughals Timurids-Mongolian dynasty of Turkish tribal origin introduced aspects of Persian culture into India.

In some respects you have to talk about both specific Islamic countries and broader definitions as 'Islamic culture' encompasses so many different races and cultures that don't neatly fit into the catagorie of 'country'.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Adam Balic (log)

[Swisskaese]

Adam you are absolutely right, the Persians also had a tremendous influence on food in other countries. The Persians have a rich cultural heritage full stop.

There are a number of races and cultures that do not fit into a country. A number of them being bedouin tribes, that still exist today.

[Adam Balic]

It is interesting isn't it. I wish I had more time to learn about everything, but one thing I would like to crack is what constitutes the definition of various cuisines. Everybody knows what "French" or "Thai" food is but both of these places are made up of numerous different regional/ethnic groups and their distictive foods. Maybe these broad definitions are invalid and only come about due to the actions of outsiders like me.

[Andrew Fenton]

I think we would be doing a great injustice to lump all of the Muslim countries into  one group and call it "Islamic" food.

I think this is exactly right; the notion of "Islamic" food makes no more sense than that of "Christian food". Consider the two largest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan. To try to group the cuisines of these two countries together under a rubric of "Islamic food" would be pointless (and-- as Adam Balic so rightly points out-- there's tremendous variation even within what we'd call "Indonesian" or "Pakistani" food). In other words, I'd say that styles of food and cooking are culturally determined, not religously determined.

[Adam Balic]

There are Islamic cultural/religious dietry restrictions and it is possible to contrast and compare in this case. Trival things like the difference between styles of satay in Malaysia and Singapore (i.e. non-pork v pork), but also in Eastern Asia where the pig is a common food item, Islam has brought across its restrictions on eating this animal (dislike of pig meat seems to be common in the middle eastern region and would seem to pre-date Islam and most many other extant religions). I assume that there will be similar ethnic groups that have radically different cuisines in the South East Asian region due to differences in dietry restrictions. I assume that the Jewish populations in China and India also showed marked differences in their cuisine compared to their non-jewish neighbours?

[Andrew Fenton]

Isn't there an important distinction to be made between ingredients/dietary restrictions on the one hand, and cooking methods and styles on the other? When thinking about what defines a cuisine, I'd place more emphasis on the latter.

Still, it would be interesting to know whether, for example, pigs were commonly raised in Indonesia before Islam arrived.

[Adam Balic]

Andrew - I am not sure to the answers to that latter (my guess would be yes, as non-Islamic neighbours like pig very much, it is even a status animal in some cases).

But, if you think about it one use for pigs is a source of cooking fat. The use of pig fat v coconut milk v X fat for cooking has to effect the cooking techniques and therefore the end product. So in this case would not the dietry restriction lead to the difference in cooking styles and methods?

[FaustianBargain]

Andrew - I am not sure to the answers to that latter (my guess would be yes, as non-Islamic neighbours like pig very much, it is even a status animal in some cases).

I cannot confirm the source atm, but I recall reading that wild boar hunting was common in some islands of Indonesia. But only for the British ... they had a ball because the meat was forbidden to the citizens themselves because of the religion. So we know that wild boar is native to the region. If something is edible, it will be consumed. One simply cannot let the porcine species run awild. They tend to eat everything. Dont know if they were domesticated at one time..before Islam arrived...

Edited December 14, 2004 by FaustianBargain (log)

[Andrew Fenton]

Andrew - I am not sure to the answers to that latter (my guess would be yes, as non-Islamic neighbours like pig very much, it is even a status animal in some cases).

True. And it should be pointed out that there are non-Muslim groups in Indonesia who eat pork (Chinese, of course, and I think Balinese).

But, if you think about it one use for pigs is a source of cooking fat. The use of pig fat v coconut milk v X fat for cooking has to effect the cooking techniques and therefore the end product. So in this case would not the dietry restriction lead to the difference in cooking styles and methods?

That's a good question, that I don't know if I can answer in the abstract. No question that substituting other fat sources for pork would lead to a difference in cooking methods, but I don't know if you could ascribe the difference in cooking methods to that substitution. My suspicion is that changing meats or fat sources would lead to variations on a theme rather than a wholesale revision. But you'd have to actually do some research to know for sure: either look at historical changes in cooking, or compare the food served by groups of Muslims and non-Muslims who are otherwise ethnically similar.

[Adam Balic]

hat's a good question, that I don't know if I can answer in the abstract. No question that substituting other fat sources for pork would lead to a difference in cooking methods, but I don't know if you could ascribe the difference in cooking methods to that substitution. My suspicion is that changing meats or fat sources would lead to variations on a theme rather than a wholesale revision. But you'd have to actually do some research to know for sure: either look at historical changes in cooking, or compare the food served by groups of Muslims and non-Muslims who are otherwise ethnically

I think that if you look at some of the Jewish cooking traditions/ingredients in Europe you can see that it can lead to quite big difference in cuisine (and these differences have been taken on by non-Jews). But the difference between variation on a theme and divergence is proberly a matter of degrees and while change from example to example.

[bentherebfor]

the notion of "Islamic" food makes no more sense than that of "Christian food". Consider the two largest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan. To try to group the cuisines of these two countries together under a rubric of "Islamic food" would be pointless (and-- as Adam Balic so rightly points out-- there's tremendous variation even within what we'd call "Indonesian" or "Pakistani" food). In other words, I'd say that styles of food and cooking are culturally determined, not religously determined.

I would agree, however, (and perhaps I didn't state this well at all in the original question) I'm wondering more about how the spread of Islam affected the original cuisine of regions around the world.

[Swisskaese]

I assume that the Jewish populations in China and India also showed marked differences in their cuisine compared to their non-jewish neighbours?

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Actually, they are not that different and that goes for Jews where ever they happened to live. The foods were similar and when they couldn't eat certain foods together (i.e. Ghee and yogurt in Butter Chicken), then they would make a variation of it.

[Swisskaese]

the notion of "Islamic" food makes no more sense than that of "Christian food". Consider the two largest Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan. To try to group the cuisines of these two countries together under a rubric of "Islamic food" would be pointless (and-- as Adam Balic so rightly points out-- there's tremendous variation even within what we'd call "Indonesian" or "Pakistani" food). In other words, I'd say that styles of food and cooking are culturally determined, not religously determined.

I would agree, however, (and perhaps I didn't state this well at all in the original question) I'm wondering more about how the spread of Islam affected the original cuisine of regions around the world.

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That is the precise point I was trying to make, Islam did not influence the food; the cultural cuisine influenced the food. The Ottomans, who happened to be Muslim, influenced Hungarian, Bulgarian, Romanian, etc. cuisine. The Persians influenced .... and the Indian Moghuls influence.....the North Africans influenced Spanish and Sicilian cuisine.

As far as Muslim dietary laws go, they can't eat pork, they can't drink alcohol and all meat has to be killed according to Halal rules, which I explained above. Other than than, they can everything else. Kashrut (keeping Kosher) is much stricter.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Swisskaese (log)