Sending back a bottle in a restaurant

[Wilfrid]

Interesting comments by Christopher Russell and Tommy (he insists) on the Corked Champagne thread...

http://www.egullet.com/ib3....62;st=0

...about the reasons for tasting wine before pouring and when it is appropriate to send a bottle back.

I think it's obvious that a corked/oxidised wine, or a flat wine which should be sparkling, should be withdrawn by the restaurant without hesitation.

Two other circumstances:  What about when the wine is what it claims to be, but you just don't like it?  Do you suck it up?  Can you reject it if it was a recommendation from the restaurant - and if so, how many times can you do that in one meal?

Secondly, what about when the wine is essentially okay, but the cork has crumbled into it.  I don't mean a few crumbs, but a major cork breakdown.  This happened to me once with a very expensive bottle of Opus One.  The sommelier went to enormous lengths to strain the cork out.  He did a good job, but he was not absolutely successful, and he lost about a fifth of the bottle in the attempt.  If  it had been vin de table, I 'd have ploughed on, but given the price I insisted on a new bottle (and got it, without complaint, but with a little bit of plaintive sighing).  Was I right?

[A Balic]

Two other circumstances:  What about when the wine is what it claims to be, but you just don't like it?  Do you suck it up?  Can you reject it if it was a recommendation from the restaurant - and if so, how many times can you do that in one meal?

Secondly, what about when the wine is essentially okay, but the cork has crumbled into it.  I don't mean a few crumbs, but a major cork breakdown.  This happened to me once with a very expensive bottle of Opus One.  The sommelier went to enormous lengths to strain the cork out.  He did a good job, but he was not absolutely successful, and he lost about a fifth of the bottle in the attempt.  If  it had been vin de table, I 'd have ploughed on, but given the price I insisted on a new bottle (and got it, without complaint, but with a little bit of plaintive sighing).  Was I right?

If the wine is corked or otherwise "off" (including large amounts of cork bits and losing 20% of the wine) then by all means ask for another bottle. If the wine is fine, but not to your taste then tough (unless it was grossly mis-represented by the sommelier, then demand a different bottle).

It's all rather ambarrassing though. I sent a corked bottle of Monbazillac back in a good restuarant in Cluny, the second bottle came out, also corked, so I sent that back. The third bottle was corked as well, back it went. The fourth bottle was corked, but I was to ambarrassed to send it back. I still hate Monbazillac today.

[tommy]

It's all rather ambarrassing though. I sent a corked bottle of Monbazillac back in a good restuarant in Cluny, the second bottle came out, also corked, so I sent that back. The third bottle was corked as well, back it went. The fourth bottle was corked, but I was to ambarrassed to send it back. I still hate Monbazillac today.

did you have the sommelier try each bottle? at that point i would have been more embarrassed for the restaurant, and sent back the 4th as well.

i think that in general i'm embarrassed to do it only because i know the server has no idea what's going on.  it baffles me.

[A Balic]

No, the wine was brought to the table, opened in front of me, then poured for me to taste. After, I indicated that it was corked the sommelier then tasted and hurried away to consult with the boss. I have never had a sommelier taste wine before me. Do they do this in the US?

[tommy]

No, the wine was brought to the table, opened in front of me, then poured for me to taste. After, I indicated that it was corked the sommelier then tasted and hurried away to consult with the boss. I have never had a sommelier taste wine before me. Do they do this in the US?

i was actually asking if he tried them after you, to make sure you weren't completely out of your tree.  i don't think it's general practice in the US to have the sommelier taste the wine before the customer.  however, i have had many verify my suspicions with either a whiff or a sip.  i figured that after the second bottle yours would have started to confirm as well, and he quite possibly did with the boss-man.

[Rosie]

The only place I have been where the sommelier tasted the wine first was The Mansion at Turtle Creek in Dallas. But the waiter also had a business card that he gave to us after the meal.

[A Balic]

No, the wine was brought to the table, opened in front of me, then poured for me to taste. After, I indicated that it was corked the sommelier then tasted and hurried away to consult with the boss. I have never had a sommelier taste wine before me. Do they do this in the US?

i was actually asking if he tried them after you, to make sure you weren't completely out of your tree.  i don't think it's general practice in the US to have the sommelier taste the wine before the customer.  however, i have had many verify my suspicions with either a whiff or a sip.  i figured that after the second bottle yours would have started to confirm as well, and he quite possibly did with the boss-man.

Oh, I see what you were asking now. Yeh, he tasted them all and agreed (not with very much grace though), the entire thing was very painful. In France the customer isn't always right. I suspect that the all there bottles of that wine were contaminated with something. Smelt like cork taint, but four for four is a bit of a high strike rate for that.

[Wilfrid]

I recall the sommelier at Mansion on Turtle Creek being a tremendously grand old burgher, festooned with chains and ribbons of office.  Can't remember if he got his snout into my wine first, but it sounds plausible.

I once had to send back repeated bottles of brown ale in a pub, because the whole crate had clearly turned to vinegar.  Not as expensive as losing a crate of wine, though.

[TCD]

The only place I have been where the sommelier tasted the wine first was The Mansion at Turtle Creek in Dallas. But the waiter also had a business card that he gave to us after the meal.

When Ivan Ruiz was running the front of the house at the Stage House Inn in Scotch Plains, NJ (now at least five years ago), he would present the bottle, get the nod from the ordering patron, retreat to a station in between the dining rooms, open, pour, taste, return to the table, and then pour a taste for the patron.

[tommy]

When Ivan Ruiz was running the front of the house at the Stage House Inn in Scotch Plains, NJ (now at least five years ago), he would present the bottle, get the nod from the ordering patron, retreat to a station in between the dining rooms, open, pour, taste, return to the table, and then pour a taste for the patron.

now that you mention that, i remember talking to the sommelier at Babbo (NYC) about this.  in fact, when he opened our bottle, i saw him scurry away.  he came back and said that as soon as he opened it he could tell it was off and dared not present me with a taste.  that's the way it should be done.

[Liza]

Obviously I'm the only loser here with a keen memory of vintage SNL episodes. Mr. Blackwell was interviewing Rajiv Vindaloo (Christopher Guest) on this very subject, as Rajiv had just written his book on wine, "Send it back". Rajiv says that if he doesn't like the wine, he'll tell the waiter, "This wine has a runny nose. Or this wine has a snotty face".

[ajay]

Christopher,

We've heard several indications that if one orders a wine and then does not like it, it is the customer's responsibility to suck it up (or down, as it were)--unless the wine is grossly misrepresented by a sommelier.  On the other hand your post on the champaigne thread suggests that Grammercy Tavern will accept such a bottle back (i assumed it was without charge).  What is the restaurant's policy?  

Generally, I wonder why restaurants, especially at the higher end, are not more explicit about their policies in this regard.

SInce we're on the subject, I once ordered a half-bottle at CB, and found it was not to my liking, and the captain graciously replaced it...I had always thought this was the norm rather than the exception...

[Christopher]

On the other hand your post on the champaigne thread suggests that Grammercy Tavern will accept such a bottle back (i assumed it was without charge).  What is the restaurant's policy?  

Our policy is that if the wine is not to your liking for whatever reason we take it back and bring you another bottle.

If the 1st wine turns out to be sound we will sell it off by the glass at the bar. We already have 21 wines open what's 22?

If the wine is corked or oxidized I'll pass it around to every new waiter I can as a teaching tool.

This being said, I think it is an economy of scale. We're a big place, it's easier for us to absorb that loss than say BLUE HILL. (as an example, I don't know anything at all about their policies)

[Bux]

In reference to Gramercy Tavern, Danny Meyer has always emphasized that he felt he was in the "hospitality" business. Theoretically, at least, the responsibility for picking the wine rests with the consumer. If you order duck for the first time in a restaurant and decide you just don't like duck after the first bite, it's not the restaurant's responsibility to exchange your dish for chicken or lamb. Likewise, if you're displeased that the Beaujolais you ordered doesn't stand up to the wild boar, the restaurant has no responsibility to take it back. When a sommelier recommends a wine, there may be some responsibility, but generally if the wine is a good example of its type, you shouldn't expect a restaurant to take it back. Nevertheless, some restaurant will take back almost anything you don't like, inlcluding your main course and chalk up the loss to public realtions. No one wants an unhappy diner, but you won't get a lot of respect from the house if you order Sauternes and complain that the wine is too sweet for your fish.

On two occasions that I can remember, both with the same friends but at different restaurants, our table has had some unusual wine suggested to us. Both times the wine was not all that much to our taste (we are unlikely to order it again) but we didn't feel any reason to reject the wine as we'd just as soon have the restaurants continue to think of us as diners with a curiosity for new or unusual wines. The chance of discovering a wine was proportionate to the risk we took when we said we'd like to try the wine.

[Fat Guy]

I visited a restaurant with a friend once, and he asked the waiter/captain for a wine recommendation. The wine came, it was a brilliant recommendation, and it was delicious. My insane friend, however, thought it was defective, namely that it was oxidized. It wasn't. He nonetheless insisted on sending it back. I was mortified, both on principle and because this was a place where I was a regular so I felt a higher level of responsibility to the establishment. Then again, our waiter didn't seem to care one bit and replaced the bottle with aplomb.

As a general rule, I've found that the way a restaurant handles wine problems is a pretty good leading indicator of the quality of service overall at the establishment.

[Beachfan]

There have been times where the wine was misrepresented or not to my liking, and I usually mention it if the wine is disappointing. I sometimes order another bottle.  Unless there is a real problem, I don't say anything about the bill, just my disappointment.  Many times (much more than half at better restaurants), it's not on the bill.

On the other hand, corked wine should be sent back.  Some cork crumbs are no big deal, but losing 20% of the wine is.  Other reasons to send back:

Wine too warm or cold (often can be fixed)

Chipped bottle lip leading to glass in wine

Wine clearly vinegar-like

Inappropriate amount of effervescence in non sparkling wine (a little may be ok)

[Christopher]

There must be something in the water ...

I had a guest last night taste a bottle of wine and without hesitation told me it was corked. I took it away and went to get new bottle of the same. Once at the bar I tasted the wine myself and it was

beautiful! So now I know that this guest just doesn't like this style of wine, which is fine, but from his point of view it's a bad bottle. If I open another he's going to have the same reaction. So, instead of correcting him ("Oh sir the wine is fine I need you to make another choice.") I returned with an alternate selection saying that, sadly he had tasted our last bottle and would he be willing to try my reccomendation.

He did, he loved it, everyone was happy.

[Fat Guy]

Oh, that was Tommy.

[Liza]

Christopher,

Do you do counseling as well?  

Liza

[macrosan]

OK, now it's my turn to ask a silly question (get back in line, Tommy).

The only time I ever sent a wine back was when it was fizzy, but shouldn't have been (it was a Beaujolais). Actually, the taste wasn't too bad, just a tad sweet. Is that the same as "oxidised" ? I always thought that oxidisation gave wine a "tinny" taste, slightly sour.

[tommy]

If the 1st wine turns out to be sound we will sell it off by the glass at the bar. We already have 21 wines open what's 22?

quite reasonable.

i remember one time (my only time) at l'express in NYC (an extremely middle-of-the-road french bistro type of place frequented by late 20-somethings on expense accounts).  i had to send back a bottle of red, as it was clearly corked.  this caused a fuss and apparently required the attention of 2 servers.  they looked so very pained, so i felt the need to apologize to them (i'm not sure why, they just looked like they needed it).  

the waitress said to me "oh, that's ok, we'll just sell it [the clearly corked wine] by the glass at the bar."

:sigh:

[Christopher]

OK, now it's my turn to ask a silly question (get back in line, Tommy).

The only time I ever sent a wine back was when it was fizzy, but shouldn't have been (it was a Beaujolais). Actually, the taste wasn't too bad, just a tad sweet. Is that the same as "oxidised" ? I always thought that oxidisation gave wine a "tinny" taste, slightly sour.

Not a silly question, It is quite possible and acceptable on Beaujolais to find a slight petillant which is a light effervescence on an otherwise still wine. Sometimes thought to be a result of carbonic maceration which is popular in Beaujolais.

[ajay]

I have got to asK: what is carbonic masceration?  How does it differ from normal masceration (sic)?[as you can tell i'm not familiar with the wine making process...]

[A Balic]

Carbonic maceration - is basically when you take whole bunches of grapes (or undamaged grapes) and layer them with carbondioxide. This means that rather then the fermentation taking place in the juice/skin mixture as per normal wine making, it occurs inside the intact grape itself. After a couple of weeks, you crush lightly, and remove the skins and ferment as normal. The result of this is that you get lots of colour, fruit flavours etc without having to extract large amounts of tannins, so it is popular with certain types of fruity red wines.

Bubbles in a normal still wine can be because carbondioxide (CO2) is often pumped over grapes/juice for to prevent oxidation during transport/ early wine making. Some of the CO2 can be absorbed during this period and comes out in the wine as those small bubbles. It's not really a wine fault as such, just a consequence of modern wine making. Having said all that I recently had a bottle of Pinot noir that had bubbles in it and was brown and cloudy, that was from bacterial contamination and should not be drunk. Unfortunately, I was drinking it by candle light and took a mouthful in.

[macrosan]

It is quite possible and acceptable on Beaujolais to find a slight petillant which is a light effervescence on an otherwise still wine. Sometimes thought to be a result of carbonic maceration which is popular in Beaujolais.

Hey, maybe I could actually get to know something about wine if I stayed around here long enough  

Thanks for that, Chris. Now the question is --- am I entitled to send back this petillant Beaujolais simply because I don't like my wine that way ? I understand that GT are happy to do that    but what about a restaurant that has a less amenable policy ?

BTW are you saying that any wine may come out of the bottle 'petillant' or are particular wines specially made to be that way ?