French cuts of beef

[Ptipois]

You may find a Canadian PDF document on cuts of meat here, though it doesn't necessarily reflect the equivalence between French and USAn cuts of beef. However, maybe you'd be interested to read it.

Please note, anyway, that "bavette" and "onglet" are different cuts.

[jgould]

You may find a Canadian PDF document on cuts of meat here, though it doesn't necessarily reflect the equivalence between  French and USAn cuts of beef. However, maybe you'd be interested to read it.

Please note, anyway, that "bavette" and "onglet" are different cuts.

←

merci beaucoup!!! added site to my favorites for future reference.

fyi: did not see any reference to "bavette"? Tony Bourdain in his most recent book, refers to a bavette as the french word for onglet!!??

which doesn't make any sense in that an onglet IS the french word for hangar steak!! so much for his "expertise"?

the "surloigne" of a French steer encompasses the tenderloin, the contre/faux-filet, the romsteck, & the BAVETTE, aka our boneless top sirloin - vs. - a US steer's loin section (short loin=tenderloin & top loin + the sirloin), & rump section

funny, in this country, a skirt (hampe) steak is the more expensive/lb, followed by the hangar (onglet), with a flank (bifteck de flanchet) steak being the least expensive of the 3 "comparable" cuts. skirt is more associated with fajitas & philly steaks, flank with london broils, & hangar with steak frites (whereas in france, steak frites is more likely to be a rump steak). i wonder if skirt is actually the cut served in restaurants serving fajitas, or is it from the cheaper flank section???

another observation: i also "used" to believe a "faux (wrong) filet" referred to a ribeye as per your above meat chart link; however, in numerous french cookbooks, a faux-filet is catagorized as the same as a "contre (against/opposite) filet", which does seem odd that 2 terms would describe the same cut - supposedly, the difference is in the shape of the cut: the faux-filet being in the shape of a filet mignon - vs. - the contre-filet which has a more rectangular shape as has its equal, the ny strip. i think the ribeye definition better re: the term "faux"-filet, but i assume they know more than i.

there doesn't appear to be a comparable french cut for our ribeye, which is why the "faux-filet" term would be a good fit for being the proper french term. the closest would be a very trimmed, boneless entrecote from the middle of the rib section.

in that this string is about french terms for beef/boeuf cuts, don't want to even think about touching upon the definition of a "delmonico" vs. a "club steak"!!!

Edited October 28, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Ptipois]

fyi: did not see any reference to "bavette"?

Maybe because "bavette" is not a term used in Canada. Please take a look at this other document, it is interesting because the French cuts of beef are clearly named and pointed at. Thus you can see there are two "bavettes", both in a zone located on the animal's side. The top bavette (plain "bavette") may be what I've heard described as "bavette d'aloyau", the bottom one is "bavette à bifteck". The muscles from this lateral zone of the animal are characterized by their long fibres, hence a similarity between the cuts. Hampe, aiguillette baronne, onglet, bavette, etc.

However bavette is bavette, hampe is hampe and onglet is onglet. None should be confused with the other. Furthermore bavette could not be the French word for onglet, both being French words. I wouldn't trust the expertise of anyone getting confused between those cuts. Anyway, a professional butcher would help you on this topic more than I could. I believe flank steak is flanchet, however I've never been able to find out what French cut was equivalent to the brisket.

funny, in this country, a skirt steak is the more expensive/lb, followed by the hangar, with a flank steak being the least expensive of the 3 comparable cuts. skirt seem to be more associated with fajitas, flank with london broils, & hangar with steak frites (whereas in france, steak frites is more likely to be a rump steak).

Steak-frites in France is a generic term. But traditionally, to deserve this name, the steak should be chosen amongst the not-too-costly cuts, the long-fibred ones, like bavette, aiguillette, the more mysterious - and quite delicious - poire or araignée (I don't know where these are cut) or, in the worst case, tranche à bifteck. Onglet has become, rather recently, quite fancy and somewhat hard to find. It used to be almost impossible to find in butcher shops because all the available onglet went to restaurants. Also, butchers used not to carry onglet, but tripiers (organ meat vendors) did, as they sold veal onglet too. Now that most tripiers have disappeared, a reliable butcher is the only place where you can hope to find onglet, even if you have to order it in advance.

Anyway, at a restaurant, when you order a piece of steak with frites, most of the time the cut of beef will be mentioned: onglet-frites, entrecôte-frites, faux-filet-frites, pavé de rumsteak-frites.

As for fajitas and skirt steak, I believe that skirt steak is a much sought-after cut in Latin America in general, for it is large and flat and may be rolled up and stuffed. That is the basis for the Argentinian matambre for instance. Also, Venezuela and, I think, Brazil have some skirt steak specialties.

another observation: oddly, i "used" to believe a "faux (wrong) filet" referred to a ribeye as per this chart link; however, in numerous french cookbooks, a faux-filet is catagorized as the same as a "contre (against/opposite) filet". it does seem odd 2 terms describe the same cut, but i assume they know more than i.

I don't know about this but I think faux-filet is very likely to be the larger part of the t-bone. It is a flattish, regular-shaped, very tender muscle lined with a layer of fat. The muscle on the other side of the t-bone is, I believe, tenderloin (filet).

faux translates into "wrong" which would lead one to think of it as the "wrong filet" giving credence to thinking of a filet-like cut, but from the rib section,

Faux-filet is considered "faux" (false) because it sort of resembles tenderloin, being very tender and tasty, but is not actually tenderloin.

which would logically be the ribeye, which is "somewhat comparable" to a ny strip cut from the top loin.

I think the ribeye is the "noix d'entrecôte. If what you call "top loin" is the front part of it, there it is.

contre translates into "opposite", as in opposite the filet, which, in fact, it is; therefore, giving credence to be the correct term, aka, our "ny strip".

Yes, the faux-filet seems to be opposite the filet, and given the shape of a slice of faux-filet, it does deserve the name "strip", so that must be it.

there doesn't appear to be a comparable french cut for our ribeye. the closest would be a very trimmed, boneless entrecote from the middle of the rib section.

That's why I do believe that it's the noix d'entrecôte.

in that this string is about french terms for beef/boeuf cuts, don't want to even think about touching upon the definition of a "delmonico" vs. a "club steak"!!!

Well, you know, things are even more complicated than this. If most cuts of beef are the object of a relative consensus amongst French butchers from North to South and from East to West, you have to take into account the innumerable vernacular and provincial terms describing some of them. Including some that are not mentioned on the maps and diagrams but that butchers seem to keep lovingly to themselves and their beloved clients... For instance how easily can you get a piece of poire or araignée if you're not in excellent terms with your neighborhood butcher? Not easily. You probably won't even hear of it. And if I go to a Parisian butcher and ask for a couple of galinettes (a very gelatinous part of the shin, oblong-shaped with a sinew at each end), he may not understand what I'm talking about if he's not from the region of Auvergne or Limousin. If he doesn't understand I may use the term "carotte" and that will do. But some cuts of beef bear different names in some regions and the whole thing is pretty confusing.

[jgould]

MERCI, again! hopefulli i am adding my comments correctly so it is easier for you to follow. also, thx very much for the chart, it is what i have been searching for, but could never find, till you kindly provided!!

fyi: did not see any reference to "bavette"?

Maybe because "bavette" is not a term used in Canada. Please take a look at this other document, it is interesting because the French cuts of beef are clearly named and pointed at. Thus you can see there are two "bavettes", both in a zone located on the animal's side. The top bavette (plain "bavette") may be what I've heard described as "bavette d'aloyau", the bottom one is "bavette à bifteck". The muscles from this lateral zone of the animal are characterized by their long fibres, hence a similarity between the cuts. Hampe, aiguillette baronne, onglet, bavette, etc.

yes there are 2 bavettes, 1 for stews, the other for grilling. from the chart i saw, it appears the top bavette is the cut for grilling, contrary to your statement above, but then again, i could be misinterpreting the "top from the bottom". 1 clarification:

a bavette is the undercut of the sirloin, whereas aloyau = sirloin; therefore, i believe a "bavette d'aloyau" is saying the same thing TWICE. & clearly, a bavette is a different cut than the onglet.

However bavette is bavette, hampe is hampe and onglet is onglet. None should be confused with the other. Furthermore bavette could not be the French word for onglet, both being French words. I wouldn't trust the expertise of anyone getting confused between those cuts. Anyway, a professional butcher would help you on this topic more than I could. I believe flank steak is flanchet, however I've never been able to find out what French cut was equivalent to the brisket.

voila - now at least i can help u a little - brisket (beef) = la poitrine de boeuf.

funny, in this country, a skirt steak is the more expensive/lb, followed by the hangar, with a flank steak being the least expensive of the 3 comparable cuts. skirt seem to be more associated with fajitas, flank with london broils, & hangar with steak frites (whereas in france, steak frites is more likely to be a rump steak).

Steak-frites in France is a generic term. But traditionally, to deserve this name, the steak should be chosen amongst the not-too-costly cuts, the long-fibred ones, like bavette, aiguillette, the more mysterious - and quite delicious - poire or araignée (I don't know where these are cut) or, in the worst case, tranche à bifteck. Onglet has become, rather recently, quite fancy and somewhat hard to find. It used to be almost impossible to find in butcher shops because all the available onglet went to restaurants. Also, butchers used not to carry onglet, but tripiers (organ meat vendors) did, as they sold veal onglet too. Now that most tripiers have disappeared, a reliable butcher is the only place where you can hope to find onglet, even if you have to order it in advance.

Anyway, at a restaurant, when you order a piece of steak with frites, most of the time the cut of beef will be mentioned: onglet-frites, entrecôte-frites, faux-filet-frites, pavé de rumsteak-frites.

interesting, sounds like you live in Paris? here in US, normally steak frites is not as detailed, although many restaurants do interpret the french underneath, but usually refer to steak frites as a sirloin, which here can mean a sirloin strip = ny strip. unnecessarily confusing because here these ARE 2 different cuts; whereas in France, it seems a sirloin is a more all-encompassing term referring to the sirloin AND the top loin cuts!!!

As for fajitas and skirt steak, I believe that skirt steak is a much sought-after cut in Latin America in general, for it is large and flat and may be rolled up and stuffed. That is the basis for the Argentinian matambre for instance. Also, Venezuela and, I think, Brazil have some skirt steak specialties.

another observation: oddly, i "used" to believe a "faux (wrong) filet" referred to a ribeye as per this chart link; however, in numerous french cookbooks, a faux-filet is catagorized as the same as a "contre (against/opposite) filet". it does seem odd 2 terms describe the same cut, but i assume they know more than i.

I don't know about this but I think faux-filet is very likely to be the larger part of the t-bone. It is a flattish, regular-shaped, very tender muscle lined with a layer of fat. The muscle on the other side of the t-bone is, I believe, tenderloin (filet).

faux translates into "wrong" which would lead one to think of it as the "wrong filet" giving credence to thinking of a filet-like cut, but from the rib section,

Faux-filet is considered "faux" (false) because it sort of resembles tenderloin, being very tender and tasty, but is not actually tenderloin.

thanks, your explanation clears up the "faux" issue & now the term makes more sense. as well as faux-filet possibly being the filet cut from the T-bone - vs. - the contre-filet being the filet cut from the porterhouse (???)

which would logically be the ribeye, which is "somewhat comparable" to a ny strip cut from the top loin.

I think the ribeye is the "noix d'entrecôte. If what you call "top loin" is the front part of it, there it is.

the string works like this: Loin = Short Loin (tenderloin aka the "filet" + the top loin aka the strip aka ny strip, etc...) + the Sirloin - vs. - the French string:

Surloigne aka sirloin = filet + contre/faux-filet + romsteck + bavette.

contre translates into "opposite", as in opposite the filet, which, in fact, it is; therefore, giving credence to be the correct term, aka, our "ny strip".

Yes, the faux-filet seems to be opposite the filet, and given the shape of a slice of faux-filet, it does deserve the name "strip", so that must be it.

actually given your excellent explanation of a faux-filet; i would add that a faux-filet is cut (i think) similarly to a filet mignon in size, small & squarish, hence the name reference: faux/false, i.e. a "false" filet mignon (vs. your stating it is the shape of a strip).

whereas, a contre-filet cut is similar to a strip, aka ny strip, rectangularish in size. using all this & the above, the faux & the contre terms now appear to make sense. however, i wonder if restaurants or chefs would agree with this???

there doesn't appear to be a comparable french cut for our ribeye. the closest would be a very trimmed, boneless entrecote from the middle of the rib section.

That's why I do believe that it's the noix d'entrecôte.

makes sense to me (assume noix =eye in French)

in that this string is about french terms for beef/boeuf cuts, don't want to even think about touching upon the definition of a "delmonico" vs. a "club steak"!!!

Well, you know, things are even more complicated than this. If most cuts of beef are the object of a relative consensus amongst French butchers from North to South and from East to West, you have to take into account the innumerable vernacular and provincial terms describing some of them. Including some that are not mentioned on the maps and diagrams but that butchers seem to keep lovingly to themselves and their beloved clients... For instance how easily can you get a piece of poire or araignée if you're not in excellent terms with your neighborhood butcher? Not easily. You probably won't even hear of it. And if I go to a Parisian butcher and ask for a couple of galinettes (a very gelatinous part of the shin, oblong-shaped with a sinew at each end), he may not understand what I'm talking about if he's not from the region of Auvergne or Limousin. If he doesn't understand I may use the term "carotte" and that will do. But some cuts of beef bear different names in some regions and the whole thing is pretty confusing.

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thanks very much!!! i very much enjoy this interchange.

Edited October 29, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Ptipois]

yes there are 2 bavettes, 1 for stews, the other for grilling. from the chart i saw, it appears the top bavette is the cut for grilling, contrary to your statement above, but then again, i could be misinterpreting the "top from the bottom". 1 clarification:

a bavette is the undercut of the sirloin, whereas aloyau = sirloin; therefore, i believe a "bavette d'aloyau" is saying the same thing TWICE. & clearly, a bavette is a different cut than the onglet.

Oui, mais. In France, nobody ever uses bavette for stews. It's all grilling stuff. As for "bavette d'aloyau", the term does make sense and doesn't sound pleonastic to me, because bavette is part of the sirloin (aloyau) so "d'" is understood as a partitive (bavette d'aloyau being part of a larger cut). (Phew, butchery is SO subtle!)

voila - now at least i can help u a little - brisket (beef) = la poitrine de boeuf.

Aha, thank you very much! I reckon brisket (poitrine) is a much underused cut in French butchery. I fondly remember some brisket breakfasts from New York City, long ago.

interesting, sounds like you live in Paris? here in US, normally steak frites is not as detailed, although many restaurants do interpret the french underneath, but usually refer to steak frites as a sirloin, which here can mean a sirloin strip = ny strip. unnecessarily confusing because here these ARE 2 different cuts; whereas in France, it seems a sirloin is a more all-encompassing term referring to the sirloin AND the top loin cuts!!!

Yes, I do live in Paris, supposedly the home of the steak-frites (there used to be postcards of this local specialty, with the recipe printed on them and the Eiffel Tower in the background. Maybe I can still find one.) I didn't know there was anything in the US actually called "steak frites". Anyway it does make sense that the American version should be prepared with the most convenient cuts of beef, i.e. the NY strip (faux-filet-frites is quite delicious here too). I like steak-frites but I believe the best combination with frites is not steak but roast chicken (yum!).

thanks, your explanation clears up the "faux" issue & now the term makes more sense. as well as faux-filet possibly being the filet cut from the T-bone - vs. - the contre-filet being the filet cut from the porterhouse (???)

Do not get confused with the French term "filet". It only means "tenderloin". In a T-bone, the "filet" part is the tenderloin part (i.e. the smaller one) whereas the "contrefilet" part is the same as the "faux-filet" part, i.e. the larger part,, i.e. the porterhouse. Does this sound correct to you?

the string works like this: Loin = Short Loin (tenderloin aka the "filet" + the top loin aka the strip aka ny strip, etc...) + the Sirloin - vs. - the French string:

Surloigne aka sirloin = filet + contre/faux-filet + romsteck + bavette.

OK, I think I can visualize this. "Surlonge" sounds like a plausible origin for the word "sirloin" too.

actually given your excellent explanation of a faux-filet; i would add that a faux-filet is cut (i think) similarly to a filet mignon in size, small & squarish, hence the name reference: faux/false, i.e. a "false" filet mignon (vs. your stating it is the shape of a strip). whereas, a contre-filet cut is similar to a strip, aka ny strip, rectangularish in size. using all this & the above, the faux & the contre terms now appear to make sense. however, i wonder if restaurants or chefs would agree with this???

Faux-filet is indeed a squarish cut, that's a good way to describe it. I don't know exactly what a "filet mignon" is in a beef context. In France, the term is used to describe a very small and tender cut, and is more frequently heard concerning pork tenderloin (sold whole). I think I vaguely remember that filet mignon de bœuf is another name for filet (tenderloin), but I'm not cure. If it is so, then in a T-bone you have filet (mignon) on one side and faux-filet (NY strip) on the other side.

thanks very much!!! i very much enjoy this interchange.

Oh, so do I! But I wish I knew more about butchery. That's one fascinating subject!

[jgould]

i'm not as technically proficient as you in that i don't know how to use the "quote" in the same way you do. so i'm deleting the parts we seem to agree on & honing in on the parts that are still open to interpretation - d'accord?

Oui, mais. In France, nobody ever uses bavette for stews. It's all grilling stuff. As for "bavette d'aloyau", the term does make sense and doesn't sound pleonastic to me, because bavette is part of the sirloin (aloyau) so "d'" is understood as a partitive (bavette d'aloyau being part of a larger cut). (Phew, butchery is SO subtle!)

totally agree & now believe this term bavette d'aloyau makes sense to me. Larousse does specify 2 different bavettes, 1 for stews & the other for grilling.

brisket (beef) = la poitrine de boeuf.

I fondly remember some brisket breakfasts from New York City, long ago.

actually beef brisket is more associated with Texas-style barbeque vs. the South's use of pork for barbecues.

I didn't know there was anything in the US actually called "steak frites". Anyway it does make sense that the American version should be prepared with the most convenient cuts of beef, i.e. the NY strip (faux-filet-frites is quite delicious here too). I like steak-frites but I believe the best combination with frites is not steak but roast chicken (yum!).

spoken like a true Frenchman. poulet rôti seems to be the meal of choice in France.

CORRECTION: what i should have said was: when translating "faux" as false, instead of wrong, makes more sense. therefore, a faux filet, only in my opinion, could be construed as referring to a very specific cut, i.e.,

the strip part of the t-bone cut more in the shape of a filet mignon-type cut, i.e., somewhat squarish. does this make sense to you?

Do not get confused with the French term "filet". It only means "tenderloin". In a T-bone, the "filet" part is the tenderloin part (i.e. the smaller one) whereas the "contrefilet" part is the same as the "faux-filet" part, i.e. the larger part,, i.e. the porterhouse. Does this sound correct to you?

non, the tenderloin is a relatively large area of "The Loin" & mistakenly referred to as a "filet". a filet mignon, is a "cut" from the middle of the tenderloin, roundish & relatively small; however, quite thick, but lean (very little marbling/fat) & therefore not that tasty, thus the reason why a "filet mignon" is usually accompanied by a sauce.

on the other hand, a porterhouse & T-bone cuts are characterized by a cross cut which includes both a "filet" & the strip separated by the "t-bone". the filet part is from the tenderloin, & the strip part is from the top loin. each strip can be carved out to serve the ny strip. the difference between a t-bone & the porterhouse is the porterhouse's filet is larger, & when compared with the t-bone, the strip also "seems" a little larger. by describing the "faux-filet" as the strip from the t-bone distinguishes it from the "contre-filet" strip cut from the porterhouse. although, i don't really know if this is accurate OR is this cutting too many fine hairs, & that, practically, the contre-filet = the faux-filet = the ny strip?????

the string works like this:

Loin = Short Loin (tenderloin aka the "filet" + the top loin aka the strip aka ny strip, etc...) + the Sirloin - vs. - the French string:

Surloigne aka sirloin = filet + contre/faux-filet + romsteck + bavette.

OK, I think I can visualize this. "Surlonge" sounds like a plausible origin for the word "sirloin" too.

is it "surloigne" or "surlonge"?

I don't know exactly what a "filet mignon" is in a beef context. In France, the term is used to describe a very small and tender cut, and is more frequently heard concerning pork tenderloin (sold whole). I think I vaguely remember that filet mignon de bœuf is another name for filet (tenderloin), but I'm not sure. If it is so, then in a T-bone you have filet (mignon) on one side and faux-filet (NY strip) on the other side.

as i described above, the "filet mignon" is a specifice beef cut & is NOT another name for filet or tenderloin. it IS a roundish cut from the middle of the tenderloin - vs. - the T-bone/porterhouse cuts comprised of a FILET (not filet mignon) on 1 side of the bone & the faux/contre-filet/ny strip on the other side.

thanks very much!!! i very much enjoy this interchange.

Oh, so do I! But I wish I knew more about butchery. That's one fascinating subject!

i think between the 2 of us we know more than most. even butchers here in NYC, don't know the difference & quite frequently i overhear them giving customers false information about different cuts!!!

by the way, what the hell does "pleonastic" mean??

Edited October 30, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Carlsbad]

To further confuse this discussion, I was always taught the folowing: The filet mignon is taken from the small end of the tenderloin (aka filet de boeuf in French, fillet of beef in English), and usually is served as 2 or 3 slices slightly less than or about an inch thick and 1.5 inches in diameter. American butchers sometimes call all steaks cut from the tenderloin filet mignon, but the French reserve the name for the small end cuts. Tournedos are taken from the slightly larger (about 2.5 inches in diameter) area next to the filet mignon, and then the center cut of the filet (about 3 to 3.5 inches in diameter) makes up the filet steaks (if sliced about 1 to 1.5 inches think) and/or chateaubriand, aka chateaubriant (if cut about 3- 4 inches thick). The thickest end part of the tenderloin is actually in the sirloin section, although I have the impression that some butchers cut it into steaks and call them filets. I think the French call these steaks simply bifteck, which can also be a generic term for several kinds of steaks.

The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone. Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin. T-bone steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin in the area where the tenderloin is smaller (the same area from which the filet mignon and tournedos are taken) and porterhouse steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin from the center cut of the filet (the area from which the chateaubriand or filet steaks are taken). What we usually call New York steaks in California are slices of the contrefilet without the tenderloin section. These steaks have several other names in other parts of the U.S. (strip, Kansas City strip, etc.), and can be served with or without the bone.

[jgould]

To further confuse this discussion, I was always taught the folowing:  The filet mignon is taken from the small end of the tenderloin (aka filet de boeuf in French, fillet of beef in English),

totally agree

and usually is served as 2 or 3 slices slightly less than or about an inch thick and 1.5 inches in diameter.  American butchers sometimes call all steaks cut from the tenderloin filet mignon, but the French reserve the name for the small end cuts.

believe that tournedos (thickly cut slices) & medaillons (thick disc cuts) - note the difference of cut - are both from the larger (anterior) end of the tenderloin. the chateaubriand is the thick center cut of the tenderloin; therefore, the tenderloin - from anterior to posterior - medaillons & tournedoes, chateaubriand, followed by the filet mignon cuts which are served as "1" thick roundish cut - vs. - the medaillons & tournedoes served as several discs or slices; which pretty much describes the different cuts from the tenderloin. actually, the chateaubriand is removed 1st from the tenderloin, then the filet mignons cut from

Tournedos are taken from the slightly larger (about 2.5 inches in diameter) area next to the filet mignon - filet mignon from the posterior, not next to the tournedos - , and then the center cut of the filet (about 3 to 3.5 inches in diameter) makes up the filet steaks (if sliced about 1 to 1.5 inches think) and/or chateaubriand, aka chateaubriant (if cut about 3- 4 inches thick). chateaubriand normally the long center of the tenderloin, & served sliced

The thickest end part of the tenderloin is actually in the sirloin section,

have to respectfully disagree. the sirloin is a completely different section from the tenderloin IF using US cuts' definition, & simply PART of the surloigne if using the French cuts' definition (see the string in previous reply)

 

although I have the impression that some butchers cut it into steaks and call them filets.  I think the French call these steaks simply bifteck, which can also be a generic term for several kinds of steaks.

have to disagree again, when use the term "bifteck" it is usually associated with a cut - bifteck de flanchet, etc...

The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone.  Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin.

short loin, part of the loin, = the tenderloin + the TOP loin

filet mignon from narrow end of the tenderloin, tournedos from the larger end; contre/faux-filet/ny strip from the top loin

T-bone steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin in the area where the tenderloin is smaller (the same area from which the filet mignon and tournedos are taken)

i don't believe that is correct. as per above, not the same area. the T-Bone steak, from the center of the short loin, has the smaller filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin". there is not a comparable French cut.

and porterhouse steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin from the center cut of the filet (the area from which the chateaubriand or filet steaks are taken).

porterhouse, from the rear of the short loin, has the larger filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin. there is not a comparable French cut.

What we usually call New York steaks in California are slices of the contrefilet without the tenderloin section.  These steaks have several other names in other parts of the U.S. (strip, Kansas City strip, etc.), and can be served with or without the bone.

strip aka ny strip aka kc strip, possibly contre/faux-filet, not ny STEAK, & not served in slices. usually referred to a shell when with bone, strip when served boneless.

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Edited November 1, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Carlsbad]

I will try to give you my understanding a little more clearly. First of all, I am familiar with the American method of butchering. I am generally familiar with some of the French terms for cuts of beef, but I'm not very familiar with the French method of butchering.

It is my understanding that the loin consists of the short loin and the sirloin. The loin section consists of two major muscles on each side of the vertebrae. The larger muscle begins in the front of the animal, travels through the rib section, through the short loin and the sirloin and continues back to the round or rump. The portion of this muscle found in the short loin is called variously the top loin, the contrefilet, the faux filet. When the butcher takes the short loin section of this muscle whole, it is a roast, the name of which varies across the U.S., but which I think is most generally call a shell roast or a top loin roast. If the butcher slices this section of muscle across the grain into steaks, they are called various names across the U.S., including New York steak (what most people in California call them), strip steaks, New York strip steaks, top loin steaks, Kansas City steaks, Kansas City strip steaks, shell steaks. The names sometimes change in an area depending on whether the bone is in or not. The most anterior of these steaks have no tenderloin below the bone, and sometimes they are called club steaks or Delmonico steaks, although those terms can also be applied to a rib steak. In the U.S., the names can be very confusing because what is called one thing in one place can be quite another in another place.

The second muscle on each side of the animal is the tenderloin, aka fillet of beef or filet de boeuf. It begins anteriorly behind where the front of the top loin begins. That is the reason the first top loin steaks do not have any tenderloin below the bone. The tenderloin gradually gets larger as it travels back through the short loin and eventually into the sirloin, where it terminates about in the middle of the sirloin section of the animal. The American T-bone steaks begin where this muscle first becomes visible and continue back as the tenderloin muscle gets larger. At a certain point as the butcher continues back cutting the steaks, the steaks cut in this matter become porterhouse steaks, which have a larger tenderloin section. At the point where the short loin ends and the sirloin begins, the two muscles change shape and continue, but the bone structures change, and these two muscles become parts of sirloin steaks.

believe that tournedos (thickly cut slices) & medaillons (thick disc cuts) - note the difference of cut - are both from the larger (anterior) end of the tenderloin. the chateaubriand is the thick center cut of the tenderloin; therefore, the tenderloin - from anterior to posterior - medaillons & tournedoes, chateaubriand, followed by the filet mignon cuts which are served as "1" thick roundish cut - vs. - the medaillons & tournedoes served as several discs or slices; which pretty much describes the different cuts from the tenderloin. actually, the chateaubriand is removed 1st from the tenderloin, then the filet mignons cut from

I don't understand what you are saying about "thickly cut slices" vs. "thick disc cuts." The tenderloin comes from a long roughly cylindrical muscle. The smaller end of this muscle is the anterior end and begins at about the last rib. (That small end of the tenderloin is where the French filet mignon are taken.) The muscle gets larger in diameter as it continues back through the short loin section and into the sirloin section, where it terminates as a larger, more rounded end, which is the posterior end, sometimes called the butt end or the rumb end. (To further confuse the situation, the small end of the tenderloin is often called the tail, presumably because it is smaller, even though it is anterior, and the butt end is often called the head of the tenderloin.) The fibers of the muscle run lengthwise. When forming all of the steak cuts from this muscle, the butcher cuts across the grain, forming a roughly cylindrical steak. As far as I can decipher, there is no real difference between medaillons (medallions in English) and tournedos. In the American version of Paul Bocuse's French Cooking for instance, which does suffer in the translation, he says, "The medaillon is a sort of tournedos (sic). They are both broiled or sauteed and garnished the same way. All the recipes for tournedos are applicable to medallions." Perhaps I have missed some nuance in these names, however.

chateaubriand normally the long center of the tenderloin, & served sliced

I agree with this. The chateaubriand is a cut from the thickest part of the center of the tenderloin muscle and it is sliced, usually at the table, after it is cooked.

The thickest end part of the tenderloin is actually in the sirloin section,

have to respectfully disagree. the sirloin is a completely different section from the tenderloin IF using US cuts' definition, & simply PART of the surloigne if using the French cuts' definition (see the string in previous reply)

See above.

have to disagree again, when use the term "bifteck" it is usually associated with a cut - bifteck de flanchet, etc...

I agree that the term bifteck is generic and can be used as you say, but I do not believe it is not always so. I am not at all clear as to how a French butcher handles the butt end of the tenderloin. I assume they slice it into steaks, but I'm not clear what they call them, other than bifteck. I checked Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and Julia Child calls that part of the tenderloin merely bifteck, so I assume that is where I originally got that idea. In the U.S., if the short loin is cut into T-bone and porterhouse steaks, that butt end of the tenderloin becomes part of the sirloin steaks.

The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone. Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin.

short loin, part of the loin, = the tenderloin + the TOP loin filet mignon from narrow end of the tenderloin, tournedos from the larger end; contre/faux-filet/ny strip from the top loin

I think that's what I said in the quoted section. The top loin IS the contrefilet (aka faux filet). It is the part of the short loin that is on the other side of the t-shape bone from the tenderloin section in an American T-bone or porterhouse steak.

The French filet mignon is indeed from the narrow end of the tenderloin. Tournedos come from the area next to the filet mignon as the tenderloin muscle gets larger. I am not sure what French butchers call steaks cut from the butt end of the tenderloin, but perhaps they are also called tournedos. If the entire muscle constituting the filet is removed in the U.S., American butchers would probably call steaks from this end fillet steaks or filet mignon.

T-bone steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin in the area where the tenderloin is smaller (the same area from which the filet mignon and tournedos are taken)

i don't believe that is correct. as per above, not the same area. the T-Bone steak, from the center of the short loin, has the smaller filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin". there is not a comparable French cut.

The T-bone steak is cut across both the contrefilet (which is the same thing as the top loin) and the tenderloin, including the bone that connects them, in the area where the tenderloin is small (the anterior end). The first T-bone steak taken beginning at the anterior section of the short loin) has almost no tenderloin section. The next T-bone steak has a larger section of tenderloin, and so forth, until you reach the point where the T-bone steaks end and porterhouse steaks begin, with the centercut section of the tenderloin included. I believe you are correct that there is no comparable French cut. The French take the tenderloin and contrefilet (what you are calling the top loin) as separate cuts, and as far as I can see, discard the T-shaped bone in between then.

and porterhouse steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin from the center cut of the filet (the area from which the chateaubriand or filet steaks are taken).

porterhouse, from the rear of the short loin, has the larger filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin. there is not a comparable French cut.

I agree with this- see above. The muscle that makes up the contrefilet (what you are calling the top loin) also continues into the sirloin section. That muscle doesn't end at the posterior limit of the short loin; it gradually changes shape and the bone structure changes.

What we usually call New York steaks in California are slices of the contrefilet without the tenderloin section. These steaks have several other names in other parts of the U.S. (strip, Kansas City strip, etc.), and can be served with or without the bone.

strip aka ny strip aka kc strip, possibly contre/faux-filet, not ny STEAK, & not served in slices. usually referred to a shell when with bone, strip when served boneless.

See above. I didn't mean to imply that a strip steak (our New York steaks around here) is necessarily sliced after it is cooked, athough if it is a very think cut served for two or more, it may be. In this quote, I was merely saying that the butcher slices across the top loin to create the steaks.

Whew! Sorry if that was too long.

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[jgould]

Carlsbad:

"In the U.S., if the short loin is cut into T-bone and porterhouse steaks, that butt end of the tenderloin becomes part of the sirloin steaks."

actually that butt end of the tenderloin becomes the filet part of the t-bone ot porterhouse, not of the sirloin steaks, IF we are talking US cuts. the sirloin is anterior to the short loin; therefore, a steak cannot be both a sirloin & a top loin strip if from the short loin!! HOWEVER, there is a well-known steakhouse here in NYC that calls their NY strip a sirloin strip!!?? & i believe it is the ONLY one that does. all the others use the correct term "NY strip". why they do this, i do not know, but it is clearly a top loin strip.

"The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone. Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin."

we are both saying the same thing:

short loin, part of the loin, = the tenderloin + the TOP loin.

the filet mignon from narrow end of the tenderloin, tournedos from the area of the tenderloin just posterior to where the filet mignon is cut (see below);

the contre/faux-filet/ny strip from the top loin

"As far as I can decipher, there is no real difference between medaillons (medallions in English) and tournedos. In the American version of Paul Bocuse's French Cooking for instance, which does suffer in the translation, he says, "The medaillon is a sort of tournedos (sic). They are both broiled or sauteed and garnished the same way. All the recipes for tournedos are applicable to medallions." Perhaps I have missed some nuance in these names, however.

Tournedos come from the area next to the filet mignon as the tenderloin muscle gets larger. I am not sure what French butchers call steaks cut from the butt end of the tenderloin, but perhaps they are also called tournedos."

i believe you are correct re: tournedos/medaillons. could say Tournedos are medaillon-like cuts, similar to "thick" discs (?) from the area just back of where the filet mignon is cut. now assume the difference between a tournedos & a filet mignon, besides location along the tenderloin, has to do with thickness (???)

"Whew! Sorry if that was too long."

NON!! that was NOT too long. very detailed & much appreciated. without responding to each well-made point, it is very refreshing to have this type of detailed interchange. many thanks to both you & Ptipois.

Edited November 1, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Ptipois]

Just a short note to say that I'm not losing interest in the conversation, folks; I'm only gaping in admiration at your beef culture. Nothing else to add. I think I reached my incompetence level in terms of biftecks.

[Carlsbad]

There are other places that include sirloin in the description of a NY steak. Sometimes it's New York sirloin, club sirloin, or strip sirloin. They are called by so many names from place to place that it is hard to keep track. I always ask what they mean if it isn't clear from the menu. When in doubt order a thick porterhouse for two- that's the same all over and is the best cut for a pure steak (in my humble opinion).

The muscle from which the tenderloin is taken continues into the sirloin area- it doesn't end where the short loin ends. The short loin ends where the bone structure of the hip begins, not where the muscles end. The same is true of the upper muscle- where the top loin comes from- it continues back into the sirloin area too, athough it changes in shape. The difference is in the bone structure. Sirloin steaks are named with reference to the bones in the whole cut: pin bone, flat bone, round bone and wedge bone. If you look at a whole bone-in pin bone sirloin, you can clearly identify the butt of the tenderloin at the bottom of the steak. It is the first steak taken posterior to the last porterhouse. Most sirloin steaks you see in markets are boneless, so it may be hard to find.

[jgould]

There are other places that include sirloin in the description of a NY steak.  Sometimes it's New York sirloin, club sirloin, or strip sirloin.  They are called by so many names from place to place that it is hard to keep track.  I always ask what they mean if it isn't clear from the menu.  When in doubt order a thick porterhouse for two- that's the same all over and is the best cut for a pure steak (in my humble opinion).

i am sure many would agree; although, i had an excellent bone-in ribeye (or was it a well-trimmed entrecôte???) a couple of days ago?? generally, i believe a ribeye is boneless (??). the steakhouse was Bobby Van's, on e54th in NYC. additionally, some swear by a good ole T-Bone - vs. -  the rolls-royce Porterhouse, e.g. thinner cut, smaller filet, smaller strip, beefier taste.

The muscle from which the tenderloin is taken continues into the sirloin area- it doesn't end where the short loin ends.  The short loin ends where the bone structure of the hip begins, not where the muscles end.  The same is true of the upper muscle- where the top loin comes from- it continues back into the sirloin area too, athough it changes in shape.  The difference is in the bone structure.  Sirloin steaks are named with reference to the bones in the whole cut: pin bone, flat bone, round bone and wedge bone.  If you look at a whole bone-in pin bone sirloin, you can clearly identify the butt of the tenderloin at the bottom of the steak.  It is the first steak taken posterior to the last porterhouse.  Most sirloin steaks you see in markets are boneless, so it may be hard to find.

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interestingly, i haven't seen a bone-in sirloin cut in a long time, most are the boneless top sirloin, even in very good butcher shops!! "supposedly, the best sirloin cut is the flat-bone.

[jgould]

back to the topic:

a) an onglet (french) aka hangar steak in the US; also known as a top skirt??

b) a skirt steak IS the diaphragm = ??? in french.

c) a hampe aka skirt as in french cuts???; however hampe translates to pole;

skirt translates into jupe. what is the equivalent of a skirt steak?? OR is an

onglet the same as a skirt steak in France????

d) a US flank steak = a bifteck d'flanchet or la bavette???

e) as per anthony bourdain's new book, he refers to a bavette as an onglet??

f) what is the difference between a chateaubriand - vs. - chateaubriant?

g) what exactly are Tournedos? if located posterior to the filet mignons cut, then

what is a filet steak???

[jgould]

i believe i can now answer my own questions:

back to the topic:

a) an onglet (french) aka hangar steak in the US; also known as a top skirt??

an onglet is our hangar which are the 2 small muscles joined by an elastic membrane, i,e.,  the supporting muscles of the diaphragm

b) a skirt steak IS the diaphragm = ??? in french.

skirt is the butcher's term for the diaphragm, which is flattened out & served as steaks. i have found no reference whatsoever to this particular cut & therefore conclude there is no comparable French cut. although in Larousse, there is a diagram of the French (beef) cuts & it does show a "hampe"; however, there is not to be found any reference to a bifteck d'hampe!!??

c) a hampe aka skirt as in french cuts???; however hampe translates to pole;

    skirt translates into jupe. what is the equivalent of a skirt steak?? OR is an

    onglet the same as a skirt steak in France????

answer to © is above

d) a US flank steak = a bifteck d'flanchet or la bavette???

bifteck d'flanchet. a "bavette" is basically a thin top sirloin

e) as per anthony bourdain's new book, he refers to a bavette as an onglet??

he should have known better, but then again... also, as an aside, as per his book, how can someone harangue, when his restaurant, Les Halles' (in NYC, where he serves as "executive chef") own bathrooms are filthy??

f) what is the difference between a chateaubriand - vs. - chateaubriant?

none, simply another spelling

g) what exactly are Tournedos? if located posterior to the filet mignons cut, then

     what is a filet steak???

tournedos are 1 of 3 "filet" steaks (as opposed to "beefsteaks"). its the cut, posterior to the filet mignons, ~ 2.5" in diameter, ~1" thick; & = to the tenderloin part of our T-bone steak

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Edited November 5, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Ptipois]

skirt is the butcher's term for the diaphragm, which is flattened out & served as steaks. i have found no reference whatsoever to this particular cut & therefore conclude there is no comparable French cut. although in Larousse, there is a diagram of the French (beef) cuts & it does show a "hampe"; however, there is not to be found any reference to a bifteck d'hampe!!??

Yes, there is such a thing as "bifteck de hampe" in French. Most of the time, when you ask your butcher for steak (without specifying the cut, i.e. entrecôte, filet, faux-filet, rumsteak...), you say: "un bifteck bien tendre s'il vous plaît" and the butcher cuts a slice off some piece of beef he keeps under the label "bifteck". That may be bavette, hampe, tranche, etc., but you may not necessarily be informed of the particular cut unless you ask.

[Ptipois]

Just for your information: the word "de" has no apostrophe before a consonant, so you should write "bifteck de flanchet" and "bifteck de hampe" but "bifteck d'onglet"...

[jgould]

merci beaucoup Monsieur Ptipois

so there seems to be:

a) the "filet" steaks: filet mignons, tournedos, châteaubriand

b) the "boeuf" steaks: contre/faux-filet

c) the "côte" steaks: entrecôte, & the noix d'entrecôte

d) the "others": bifteck d'onglet, bifteck de hampe, bifteck de flanchet, bavette

d'aloyau

Edited November 6, 2004 by jgould (log)

[fiftydollars]

...châteaubriant...

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Speaking of which...

What's the deal with butchers selling cuts of sirloin as châteaubriant?

I seem to find this pretty regularly. From my understanding this is a large cut from the tenderloin.

However, I often see a large piece of carved sirloin being sold under this name...

[Ptipois]

One last word about châteaubriand : Chateaubriant is the name of a town not far from Brittany. Châteaubriand is both the name of the writer and the name of the steak. It is believed that he liked filet steak a lot and had it sandwiched between two slices of less valuable beef before grilling it slowly. When the outer slices were totally burnt through, they were removed and thrown away, and he feasted on the middle slice, which had undergone a primitive and refined version of low-temperature cooking. This is, supposedly, the origin of the tenderloin dish called châteaubriand (no final t for this one). Nowadays, obviously, it is not prepared as it used to be. It is customary to serve it with a béarnaise sauce and fairly large-sized frites.

[jgould]

One last word about châteaubriand : Chateaubriant is the name of a town not far from Brittany. Châteaubriand is both the name of the writer and the name of the steak. It is believed that he liked filet steak a lot and had it sandwiched between two slices of less valuable beef before grilling it slowly. When the outer slices were totally burnt through, they were removed and thrown away, and he feasted on the middle slice, which had undergone a primitive and refined version of low-temperature cooking. This is, supposedly, the origin of the tenderloin dish called châteaubriand (no final t for this one). Nowadays, obviously, it is not prepared as it used to be. It is customary to serve it with a béarnaise sauce and fairly large-sized frites.

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sounds like we have pretty much covered the "french cuts". thanks to all for an excellent interchange. please feel free to continue the string if we have left something out, merci

[John Talbott]

cote de boeuf is a 2-3 boned rib steak either cooked like a roast beef or grilled depending on thickness.

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My favorite piece in France which when in the US I've been successful in ordering by asking the butcher to take say a standing side and leave one rib in and cut the beef to its maximum on both sides, eg up to the proximal bones, giving you an effective 2-2.5 times beef/bone ratio. Have I clarified or muddied the water?

[jgould]

cote de boeuf is a 2-3 boned rib steak either cooked like a roast beef or grilled depending on thickness.

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My favorite piece in France which when in the US I've been successful in ordering by asking the butcher to take say a standing side and leave one rib in and cut the beef to its maximum on both sides, eg up to the proximal bones, giving you an effective 2-2.5 times beef/bone ratio. Have I clarified or muddied the water?

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a) you would never muddy the water, & all comments always welcome

b) believe i corrected myself above in that a côte de boeuf is a large 1-boned rib steak, & typically grilled - vs. - an entrecôte, which is a boneless rib steak.

c) a côte rôtie is pretty much our (U.S.) standing 2-3 rib roast; however, it is "my"

understanding that this cut is NOT served in France, therefore, the term, "côte

rôti is simply the french translation of "rib roast"

now, how's that for muddying the waters??? & btw, your cut described above must be some HUGE piece of meat!!!

[John Talbott]

your cut described above must be some HUGE piece of meat!!!

Bah oui. The best example of which has been Boboss's côte de boeuf at Le Quincy in the 12th; watching the not totally-stripped bones toted back to the kitchen brought tears to my friend's eyes.

[Poppy Quince]

Well, this thread sent me off to my local butcher, who cut me a piece of bavette and a piece of onglet for taste comparison. Went home and grilled them both and my husband and I agreed that we had a distinct preference for the bavette. The onglet tasted too strong, somehow.

The butcher had told me that the onglet, which was darker than the bavette, came from nearer the kidney and therefore was richer in blood. Anatomy of anything, much less cows, is not my thing, but I'd be curious to know if this is true and if so, whether this accounts for the difference in taste. I somehow have a suspicion I've been told a yarn.