Who is coming for dinner?

[Stigand]

I was never aware that a goat had sweetbreads like cattle have. Do they also disappear as the animal ages?

I'm ashamed to say I didn't even realise that sweetbreads disappeared as animals got older - but of course now you mention it I've never eaten ox or sheep sweetbreads, only those from calves and lambs.

What happens to them? Do older animals not have thymus glands and pancreases?

[Mabelline]

They are absorbed back into the body, as the system relies less upon the production of that hormone; a 'finisher' for a milk diet. As the animals graze, voila, production starts up in digestion. At least for cattle.

[jschyun]

Forgive me if someone mentioned this ( just skimmed the above) but Buddhists also stay away from garlic and onions. At least the temple food I've had never had any.

[Pickles]

My niece, for example, who is meshuganer frum ,

I know what meshuganner means...never heard " meshuganner frum." What's that mean?

[Bux]

To me, the unifying principal behind each of these "responsibilities" is courtesy.  Isn't that supposed to be a requirement for both hosts AND guests?

When this thread deals with courtesy, and promotes communication between host and guest, it best serves everyone's interests in my opinion. When it offers "answers" it can be misleading and dangerous.

[Bux]

[...]On that issue, I'll repeat my warnings that a little information can be a dangerous thing and an assumption that one has learned enough to be the good host can lead to many unforeseen problems. Those who get the religious information from this site, or from this thread and act upon that information may regret that they didn't learn much more.

Bux: This wasnt intended to be a gospel, but as a broad guideline...before I looked it up, I didnt know that Rastafarians are vegetarians...

Precisely, and if it is an important subject, it deserves more research than has been put into this thread. In any event, a broad guideline is useless as it doesn't let you know exactly how many in any group are not covered by the material included. A truly observant Jew would not eat meat from a plate or a fork that ever came in contact with a milk product and vice versa. On the other hand, many people who profess to be Jewish, have no trouble eating bacon. Following your broad guideline one may well have gone to needless trouble, or not nearly enough trouble.

I am very well aware of the slew of warnings that are whooshing past for this topic and frankly it confounds me. A little information can be a dangerous thing? OK. So what are you suggesting? That such threads shouldnt exist or that it should be exhaustingly elaborate and precise? This was also meant to be an invitation for others to participate and some of them have done that. Did I, at any point of time, suggest that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information?

Tell me, please? Because I am utterly confused. The messages that is coming through from most of the people(especially, the established older members of egullet) is discouraging as it seems to be a rap on my knuckle for bringing this topic up. Worse, I see to have ruffled many a feather for not going into 'more research'. Is not knowing that Jews dont mix meat and dairy better than NOT knowing anything about it at all? If there are subtleties about the various dietary practices even within the religious groups, maybe this is a place to register it instead of flogging the validity of the thread itself. What *is* the point of discussion if it's credibility is questioned because of the lack of reams and reams of papers of 'research'?

Have a nice day.

Perhaps you haven't suggested that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information, but it's hardly likely that it wouldn't be taken as that. I believe it's reasonable to suspect that more than a few readers of the thread might latch onto your post and the posts that follow as all the information they need to say they made an effort to accommodate their guests.

The answer to your question is that it is my belief that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing more often that it is a helpful thing. To know not to mix milk and meat would not lead to keeping bacon off the table, let along not serving the hindquarter of beef. Cakewalk seemed to understand the nature of my reply. Were we to decide that this thread should not be here, it would be deleted. On the other hand, it can only remain with the caveats of those who point out the flaws. Read my response to Jon's post above. When this thread attempts to get people to think about the needs of their dinner guests it serves a good purpose as far as I am concerned. When if attempts to offer answers, or even solicit answers from other members in the hope of building a useful compendium of information, it may be doing a disservice to many. As a responsible person, I feel moved to point out the problem. As a manager of the site, I feel it is my duty to err on the side of pointing out the dangers of regarding any information that appears on a site such as ours, as the answer. I apologize if I come off unappreciative of your contribution, but not all criticism is meant to be a rap on the knuckle.

The information offered in this thread regarding dietary restrictions is but the tip of the iceberg. It will never be more than that, in my opinion. Ships have sunk not by hitting the tip of the iceberg, but the part that was not seen. Threads of this sort can be very misleading, it is only with that warning that they can be allowed to continue.

[Mabelline]

chile_peppa, that is a very thoughtful thing to do. I know from going to both tribal and firefighter functions, that it is much appreciated to introduce no alcohol. Unfortunately, alcoholism is a rampant and degrading abcess on the N/A people. I read a couple of books that explained this phenomenon as a genetic pre-disposed weakness toward high percentage alcohol. The N/A people have had a ceremonial fermented drink, and somehow they can resist addiction to it.

Both my SO and I are regularly exposed to desperate alcoholics, because of his job, and my involvement tribally and and at the Food Bank--which I've had to suspend recently.

It is a sad part of life for a vibrant, inventive, and artistic people to be so shackled to a worthless and demeaning thing.

Sorry. I did not mean to preach. But this is close to my heart, primarily for the innocents who are the real victims--their children.

[FaustianBargain]

[...]On that issue, I'll repeat my warnings that a little information can be a dangerous thing and an assumption that one has learned enough to be the good host can lead to many unforeseen problems. Those who get the religious information from this site, or from this thread and act upon that information may regret that they didn't learn much more.

Bux: This wasnt intended to be a gospel, but as a broad guideline...before I looked it up, I didnt know that Rastafarians are vegetarians...

Precisely, and if it is an important subject, it deserves more research than has been put into this thread. In any event, a broad guideline is useless as it doesn't let you know exactly how many in any group are not covered by the material included. A truly observant Jew would not eat meat from a plate or a fork that ever came in contact with a milk product and vice versa. On the other hand, many people who profess to be Jewish, have no trouble eating bacon. Following your broad guideline one may well have gone to needless trouble, or not nearly enough trouble.

I am very well aware of the slew of warnings that are whooshing past for this topic and frankly it confounds me. A little information can be a dangerous thing? OK. So what are you suggesting? That such threads shouldnt exist or that it should be exhaustingly elaborate and precise? This was also meant to be an invitation for others to participate and some of them have done that. Did I, at any point of time, suggest that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information?

Tell me, please? Because I am utterly confused. The messages that is coming through from most of the people(especially, the established older members of egullet) is discouraging as it seems to be a rap on my knuckle for bringing this topic up. Worse, I see to have ruffled many a feather for not going into 'more research'. Is not knowing that Jews dont mix meat and dairy better than NOT knowing anything about it at all? If there are subtleties about the various dietary practices even within the religious groups, maybe this is a place to register it instead of flogging the validity of the thread itself. What *is* the point of discussion if it's credibility is questioned because of the lack of reams and reams of papers of 'research'?

Have a nice day.

Perhaps you haven't suggested that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information, but it's hardly likely that it wouldn't be taken as that. I believe it's reasonable to suspect that more than a few readers of the thread might latch onto your post and the posts that follow as all the information they need to say they made an effort to accommodate their guests.

The answer to your question is that it is my belief that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing more often that it is a helpful thing. To know not to mix milk and meat would not lead to keeping bacon off the table, let along not serving the hindquarter of beef. Cakewalk seemed to understand the nature of my reply. Were we to decide that this thread should not be here, it would be deleted. On the other hand, it can only remain with the caveats of those who point out the flaws. Read my response to Jon's post above. When this thread attempts to get people to think about the needs of their dinner guests it serves a good purpose as far as I am concerned. When if attempts to offer answers, or even solicit answers from other members in the hope of building a useful compendium of information, it may be doing a disservice to many. As a responsible person, I feel moved to point out the problem. As a manager of the site, I feel it is my duty to err on the side of pointing out the dangers of regarding any information that appears on a site such as ours, as the answer. I apologize if I come off unappreciative of your contribution, but not all criticism is meant to be a rap on the knuckle.

The information offered in this thread regarding dietary restrictions is but the tip of the iceberg. It will never be more than that, in my opinion. Ships have sunk not by hitting the tip of the iceberg, but the part that was not seen. Threads of this sort can be very misleading, it is only with that warning that they can be allowed to continue.

There is no need for any apologies. If I had any control over this thread, I'd simply delete it. *I* dont want to be associated with something(especially since I started it) that is so obviously misleading, ambigious and a potential ticking bomb to most. It was started with good intention and especially since the original thread re alcohol and mormonism had a number of culled posts because of digressions into other misc and sundry topics. No, I didnt spend a considerable amount of time doing research when I posted it. But I did set aside time from whatever it is that I was doing and I wouldnt want it to grow into something that is obviously dangerous to religious sensibilities. That was never the intention. I will leave the discussion of such things to the experts, whoever they are.

Am I to take responsibility for starting a thread that would excite people's imaginations and misconceptions? If that is the case, do I have the right to eliminate the thread as I am the one who is to bear the burden of responsibility? Maybe there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of the thread? Should there be a disclaimer for every thread? This is NOT a guide book. It was meant to be a discussion.

You say that when this thread 'attempts to offer answers or even solicit answers from other members in the hope of building a(sic) useful compendium of information, it may be doing a disservice to many.."[...]

There is no excuse, whatsoever, for this thread to exist if that is how you, a moderating pillar of egullet, feels that way even though it was never intended to be an encyclopedic version of religious dining etiquette.

That it 'can be allowed to continue only with a warning' is an innuendo if I have ever seen one. It pains me that I am part of something that had lead to this. If I had the power, I will lock this thread and allow you to leave a conclusion with the warning/disclaimer. As far as I am concerned, this misleading/dangerous/unhelpful discussion is over. I denounce responsibility for people's assumptions. I am NOT a cerebral babysitter.

[jackal10]

My niece, for example, who is meshuganer frum ,

I know what meshuganner means...never heard " meshuganner frum." What's that mean?

meshuganer = crazy

frum = religious observance ;

meshuganer frum = obsessive religous observance beyond the point of normal sanity, or at least from the point of view of the speaker.

Since it is Yiddish I suppose it only refers to Askenazic Judism; within that are various sects and schisms, of which one of the more observant are the Lubavitcher, followers of the Lubavitch Rebbe, they of the black clothes and wide hats, although individuals may or may not be meshuganer.

Since Judism is a disorganised religion in that it has no formal authority structure (Rabbi mean a teacher and is appointed by the community, not the organised religion - ther is no equivalent of the Pope), observance is between the individual and their conscience and individual interpretation of the rather obscure biblical commandments, which leaves a lot of options and family traditions.

The term "glatt", meaning smooth or clean, is sometimes used. For the extra orthodox kosher meat must appear and be certified "glatt", hence the expression "glatt kosher" meaning really kosher, and the usage has been extended beyond meat to mean extra observant, as in "glatt Lubavitcher".

Edited August 16, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[cakewalk]

My niece, for example, who is meshuganer frum ,

I know what meshuganner means...never heard " meshuganner frum." What's that mean?

To be "frum" is to be religious. An Orthodox Jew. So to be meshugganer frum is, well ... an opinion? It's yiddish, and I think it might be slang, but I'm not sure of it's origin. Anyone?

[KatieM]

Perhaps you haven't suggested that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information, but it's hardly likely that it wouldn't be taken as that. I believe it's reasonable to suspect that more than a few readers of the thread might latch onto your post and the posts that follow as all the information they need to say they made an effort to accommodate their guests.

I don't think that any of us would be looking at it that way at all. I find the information very interesting and informative, but I would not consider it all the information I would need to accommodate all guests by any means. I think that it is a good place to start. I had no idea about some of the dietary restrictions listed above, and I find it helpful. Say I have a friend who is Muslim. This list would aid me in asking my friend what he or she can or cannot eat. It would give me a good starting point for questions to ask. And I think that it would make my friend feel special that I was trying to be thoughtful and appreciative of their needs. Perhaps it would end up that they wouldn't be able to eat in my home. But I would happily eat in theirs! And I could return the favor in some other manner.

Personally, I find these kind of dietary restrictions to be a fun challenge. My sister is a vegetarian, as well as a very picky eater. I actually really enjoy finding foods that we can both enjoy together. I find it to be a fun creative challenge. I also have a cousin who is getting married soon. He and his fiancee are both vegatarians, and she is vegan. They have asked me to make their wedding cake. Not only because they like my work, but because they know that I consider it a fun challenge to make a vegan wedding cake (not sure how I'm going to do it yet, but I have a year, so I'm not too worried yet!). I think restrictions actually force me to IMPROVE my skills.

I subscribe to the "food is love" philosophy, and what better way to show your friends you love them than to find a way to cook for them what they (and you) will enjoy?

Ok, getting off my soapbox now . . .

[Carolyn Tillie]

I've never hidden the fact that I am an occultist. Back in the 80s, I studied and taught Wicca (neo-Paganism/Goddess worship). For the past ten years, I have been involved with Thelema.

One of our most important Holy Books, The Book of the Law, also known as Liber AL vel Legis, sub figura CCXX, as delivered by XCIII = 418 to DCLXVI states:

Chapter I

51 ...Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! ...

and

Chapter II

34. But ye, o my people, rise up & awake!

35. Let the rituals be rightly performed with joy & beauty!

36. There are rituals of the elements and feasts of the times.

37. A feast for the first night of the Prophet and his Bride!

38. A feast for the three days of the writing of the Book of the Law.

39. A feast for Tahuti and the child of the Prophet--secret, O Prophet!

40. A feast for the Supreme Ritual, and a feast for the Equinox of the Gods.

41. A feast for fire and a feast for water; a feast for life and a greater feast for death!

42. A feast every day in your hearts in the joy of my rapture!

43. A feast every night unto Nu, and the pleasure of uttermost delight!

44. Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu.

How can I not love a religion that glorifies feast and drink!?!?!?

Edited August 16, 2004 by Carolyn Tillie (log)

[cakewalk]

Since Judism is a disorganised religion in that it has no formal authority structure ... observance is between the individual and their conscience and individual interpretation of the rather obscure biblical commandments, which leaves a lot of options and family traditions.

The term "glatt", meaning smooth or clean, is sometimes used. For the extra orthodox kosher meat must appear and be certified "glatt", hence the expression "glatt kosher" meaning really kosher, and the usage has been extended beyond meat to mean extra observant, as in "glatt Lubavitcher".

Well, not exactly. There is no overall hierarchy, that is true. But most Jews who consdier themselves to be Orthodox will belong to particular communities, be it Lubavitch or something else, and they will follow the interpretations of the community leader. It is misleading (even just plain incorrect) to say that observance is based on individual interpretation. The issue is exceedingly complex, and while many of us may not appreciate it or even like it, I don't think its complexities should be diminished.

As for glatt kosher, it refers to very specific ways of slaughtering and then, in particular, examining the animal after it is ritually slaughtered to make sure there are no lesions that would have killed the animal even without the ritual slaughter (thereby making it unkosher). Again, enormously complex stuff. Anyway, since "glatt" kosher is sort of "more than just plain kosher," the slang has evolved accordingly; however, it does refer to something very specific.

[slyaspie]

I was never aware that a goat had sweetbreads like cattle have. Do they also disappear as the animal ages?

I'm ashamed to say I didn't even realise that sweetbreads disappeared as animals got older - but of course now you mention it I've never eaten ox or sheep sweetbreads, only those from calves and lambs.

What happens to them? Do older animals not have thymus glands and pancreases?

Maybelline, you know, I never even knew that perhaps there are some animals that don't have sweetbreads or that lose their sweetbreads as they age. I haven't really had any since I was a young teenager as I lost my taste for them. I know that every year my family and many other Greek families in the area get a freshly killed goat for Easter from a man who raises them and who used to also be from the same village as my family.

I'm glad you liked the legumes, greens and squash recipe. Now is the time to get the fresh green blackeyed peas (my mom's favorite) and boil them up with greens and a light green buttery squash if you can find something like that. The thing that I like about this kind of dish, especially when made with dried legumes is that it gets starchy and when mixed with a little bit of the cooking liquid, the lemon and olive oil it becomes a hearty, soupy mess of rustic yum for your bread to dip into.

Experiment with different combinations and let me know how it goes. Lemon is one of my favorite things too and I use it in pretty much everything I make.

p.s. I hope you feel better soon.

Edited August 16, 2004 by slyaspie (log)

[Mabelline]

Thank you, dear child, and I guarantee you I will hunt some fresh blackeyes down. Their flavor is so sublime, so delicate, that they are very underrated. I understand that during VERY hard times the Med. folks had to rely on them. I so love lemon, every night I've been eating a lemon and drinking two huge bottles of water. I'm just not hungry yet, but I do get my virtual kick from reading eG. It at least makes me "eat food in my mind", which I hope helps.

[slyaspie]

Thank you, dear child, and I guarantee you I will hunt some fresh blackeyes down. Their flavor is so sublime, so delicate, that they are very underrated. I understand that during VERY hard times the Med. folks had to rely on them. I so love lemon, every night I've been eating a lemon and drinking two huge bottles of water. I'm just not hungry yet, but I do get my virtual kick from reading eG. It at least makes me "eat food in my mind", which I hope helps.

Maybelline, you're very welcome; and I do understand what you've been going through with your appetite as I've been experiencing problems with my kidneys the last several years and I frequently will lose all semblance of an appetite. I'm so fascinated by food however, that I too come to egullet to "eat food with my mind" at least. I also watch a lot of Food Netword, the saturday cooking shows on PBS, and check out scads of cookbooks and food magazines from the library for the same reason. It's a comfort thing I think.

If you'd like other fresh lemony recipes let me know. They are a Cypriot specialty.

[Mabelline]

I'll just about bet I was a Cypriot or at the least a Meditterenean in a former trip through!!

These Olympics are so beautiful, it just took my breath away. Greek food has always been so sensual and SATISFYING to me, ever since I was young.

May you have no medical complications, as well, girl. This is rough, but having friends and buds helps.

[jhlurie]

Whatever the original intention of this thread was, it has aparently become about the PROCESS of the discussion instead of a furtherance of it.

Until we can get that out of our heads, I'm locking this topic.