Kitchen renovation

[fifi]

In the event you actually change your cabinets, get pull-out shelves inside the lower cabinets.  It makes it easier to get everything.

Shows how much I know...pull out shelves? Sounds interesting but wouldn't that decrease the space you can put things within the cabinet?

Another plug for pull out shelves. The alternative is all drawers. That space in the back of a conventional cabinet is no good if you have to get on the floor and grovel to get to it. Inevitably, stuff gets shoved back there, forgotten about, and is rendering that space unuseable so you haven't gained anything.

[robyn]

OK - 50 messages - and no one has asked - what's the budget? How much do you want to spend - maximum? No sense talking about anything until we know how much money we have to play with. Robyn

P.S. Take your absolute maximum and subtract about 20% for starting estimates -because home improvement stuff always goes over budget.

[winesonoma]

Another plug for pull out shelves. The alternative is all drawers. That space in the back of a conventional cabinet is no good if you have to get on the floor and grovel to get to it. Inevitably, stuff gets shoved back there, forgotten about, and is rendering that space unuseable so you haven't gained anything.

[hshiau]

OK - 50 messages - and no one has asked - what's the budget? How much do you want to spend - maximum? No sense talking about anything until we know how much money we have to play with. Robyn

P.S. Take your absolute maximum and subtract about 20% for starting estimates -because home improvement stuff always goes over budget.

Given your formula, our budget is $25,000. Play away!!!

[robyn]

OK - 50 messages - and no one has asked - what's the budget?  How much do you want to spend - maximum?  No sense talking about anything until we know how much money we have to play with.  Robyn

P.S.  Take your absolute maximum and subtract about 20% for starting estimates -because home improvement stuff always goes over budget.

Given your formula, our budget is $25,000. Play away!!!

Some preliminary thoughts. $25,000 isn't a whole lot - especially when you're talking about construction in New York. On the other hand - you're working with a relatively small space. For starters - I'd try to minimize or eliminate any major construction (like moving plumbing - venting - electrical - whatever). Try to keep the major appliances/fixtures about where they are if moving them would require major construction. Just rip everything out - and reinstall new stuff.

Your wife wants more storage - and - basically you don't cook (typical for New York ). Your mother sometimes does high temp wok cooking - but I doubt you want to get into a high end gas stove/vent setup just for an occasional meal. You could do take-out for 100 years and still be ahead of the game. What I hear is you want a kitchen that looks more contemporary - holds more stuff - but will basically get light use. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In light of what you said - I'd put the major part of my budget into high end cabinets - maybe $15,000. The highest end you can afford with all the fancy storage options (full extension drawers - floor to ceiling storage cabinets - cutting board cabinets - etc.). Go to a place like Poggenpohl or Siematic and see what the low end in these lines would cost. Get catalogues and look through them. Note that many of these places offer free cabinet/kitchen design (although most will ask for a small non-refundable deposit before they draw up plans in case you don't go ahead with the project). So take advantage of in-house design. $4,000 into appliances to give you the look you want. $6,000 for floors and lighting and countertop. (Lighting is important because it can make or break the look of the place.) These aren't absolute numbers - just a rough idea of priorities.

Anyway - I'd start by spending a few afternoons in cabinet showrooms. What do you think? Robyn

P.S. I am 5' tall - and when it comes to cabinets - if I can't reach it - it's relatively worthless (except for things I only use occasionally). Concentrate on as much low pull out storage as you can squeeze in. Also - even if your cabinets go to the ceiling - you can lower the cabinets an inch or two below normal - then adjust the shelves so you get as many as possible within arm's reach. You can even try to find an area where you can sit a tall cabinet on a counter - which gives you a huge amount of storage space.

Edited August 18, 2004 by robyn (log)

[hshiau]

That sounds great. In fact, we're planning on starting with some kitchen places this weekend to check out cabinets. However, your figures don't include labor, do they?

[bloviatrix]

Before you do anything, get your hands on a copy of the Sept. 2004 issue of This Old House magazine. They have a great article called Why Didn't Somebody Tell Me? 25 things you Need to know before starting a remodeling project. Not everything will apply to a small kitchen re-model, but there's good advice in there.

Even if you're not currently planning a project it's worthwhile reading. My copy is going in my "renovations" file.

[robyn]

That sounds great.  In fact, we're planning on starting with some kitchen places this weekend to check out cabinets.  However, your figures don't include labor, do they?

My numbers include labor (although I haven't done a kitchen in 8 years and I'm not sure what a lot of things cost today).

Note that if you go to a high end place like Poggenpohl - the cost of the cabinets should include installation (although you will have to make sure that your space is configured to accept the cabinet installation - including things like walls that will hold the cabinets). The people who supply the appliances should take care of their installation - although you will probably need a plumber and an electrician to take care of plumbing/electrical connections. The flooring contractor will take care of the flooring - and you'll need an electrician for the lighting. The counters are probably a separate contract.

A lot of this depends on how comfortable you are dealing with various kitchen people. On my part - last time I did a kitchen (I've done 3) I was building a house. Had a general contractor who knew less about kitchens than I did. So the GC built the shell - and I dealt directly with the other people who did parts of the kitchen. If you don't feel comfortable dealing with outfits who do the various components - you'll want to find someone who'll coordinate everything for you. It's possible that a kitchen designer from a cabinet place will do this. But - not being from your neck of the woods - I can't say. You'll have to ask questions.

At a minimum - you'll learn a lot just dropping in and chatting with the designers at the high end cabinet places (best to do this on a day when they're not busy). I was in Atlanta a few months ago - and spent an hour talking with the designer at the local Bulthaup showroom (it was a slow day for her - and a lazy day for me - and I may well use Bulthaup in my next kitchen).

If you're interested in design - designers are interested in showing you what they have to offer. And don't be shy about asking questions - like what they think would work for you - and what various options cost. Worst that can happen is the quote knocks your socks off - and you thank the designer for his/her time (when I was much younger - I once went to the Pace Gallery and asked what a particular painting cost - it was Chuck Close - and it was about $450,000 - which was a bit more than I planned on spending - but the gallery person was more than willing to tell me everything about the artist even after I made it known that I couldn't possibly afford the piece - I was interested in learning and that was all that mattered). Robyn

[hshiau]

That sounds great.  In fact, we're planning on starting with some kitchen places this weekend to check out cabinets.  However, your figures don't include labor, do they?

My numbers include labor (although I haven't done a kitchen in 8 years and I'm not sure what a lot of things cost today).

Note that if you go to a high end place like Poggenpohl - the cost of the cabinets should include installation (although you will have to make sure that your space is configured to accept the cabinet installation - including things like walls that will hold the cabinets). The people who supply the appliances should take care of their installation - although you will probably need a plumber and an electrician to take care of plumbing/electrical connections. The flooring contractor will take care of the flooring - and you'll need an electrician for the lighting. The counters are probably a separate contract.

A lot of this depends on how comfortable you are dealing with various kitchen people. On my part - last time I did a kitchen (I've done 3) I was building a house. Had a general contractor who knew less about kitchens than I did. So the GC built the shell - and I dealt directly with the other people who did parts of the kitchen. If you don't feel comfortable dealing with outfits who do the various components - you'll want to find someone who'll coordinate everything for you. It's possible that a kitchen designer from a cabinet place will do this. But - not being from your neck of the woods - I can't say. You'll have to ask questions.

At a minimum - you'll learn a lot just dropping in and chatting with the designers at the high end cabinet places (best to do this on a day when they're not busy). I was in Atlanta a few months ago - and spent an hour talking with the designer at the local Bulthaup showroom (it was a slow day for her - and a lazy day for me - and I may well use Bulthaup in my next kitchen).

If you're interested in design - designers are interested in showing you what they have to offer. And don't be shy about asking questions - like what they think would work for you - and what various options cost. Worst that can happen is the quote knocks your socks off - and you thank the designer for his/her time (when I was much younger - I once went to the Pace Gallery and asked what a particular painting cost - it was Chuck Close - and it was about $450,000 - which was a bit more than I planned on spending - but the gallery person was more than willing to tell me everything about the artist even after I made it known that I couldn't possibly afford the piece - I was interested in learning and that was all that mattered). Robyn

Not having done this before, I probably would have a hard time dealing with all the different people and making sure I've got bases covered. The questions is how much a coordinator, an architect, a general contractor, and an electrician would cost. This is before we even look at the materials.

We'll definitely take your advice and drop by Poggenpohl to see if they have advice/information. At the very least, I'll get a better idea about the cost. Thanks.

Howard

[Mottmott]

I suggest as a trial run, take a floor plan (to scale) with your current layout and get a price on the new cabinets & counter for a general idea of what you're heading towards. Take a sedative with you to deal with the sticker shock.

[hshiau]

I suggest as a trial run, take a floor plan (to scale) with your current layout and get a price on the new cabinets & counter for a general idea of what you're heading towards. Take a sedative with you to deal with the sticker shock.

I'll take one before and one after!

[winesonoma]

You have just embarked on the single most stressful thing you will ever do. Take it from me I'm a contractor. Please think this out first. We hate and charge for changes. Moving something 6 inches may not be a big deal to you but when the sub has left the job it could be MUCHO DOLLARS. Your forewarned.

[hshiau]

You have just embarked on the single most stressful thing you will ever do. Take it from me I'm a contractor. Please think this out first. We hate and charge for changes. Moving something 6 inches may not be a big deal to you but when the sub has left the job it could be MUCHO DOLLARS. Your forewarned.

My wife's a doctor. She'll prescribe something to keep us nice and sedate for the next couple of months.

[Tracy K.]

We had the same cabinets you have now in an apartment we rented in Stamford about 16 years ago...strictly "contractor-grade" crud. I'm not surprised that they are not holding up.

In terms of design...I've never liked the stove across the room from the sink. Maybe you could put the stove on the other side of the room, perhaps where the "L" shape of the counter is, because you never know when you have to throw something flaming/filthy into the sink!

A product plug that will cost you around $300, and you would get good use out of it even though you don't cook--we installed an "Insta-Hot" by the sink. It's simply a small water heater that plugs into an outlet you'd install under the sink. Like the name says, you press the lever and you get hot water instantly--for tea, instant soups, soaking messy pans, warming baby bottles . I didn't think I'd use it, but the ladies at the plumber's raved about theirs. It's great and I wouldn't be without it now.

Be ready for real problems with electrical and plumbing issues. Once those cabinets come off the walls, you'll never know what you'll find--we found live electrical wires connected to nothing...on all walls (Quote from electrician "Oh, this is really dangerous." These wires had been hidden 50 years like that.) We also had to bring our sink/diswasher drain up to code. As mentioned before about outlets, I'm sure that GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) outlets are code in NYC. Do it right...you want to be safe.

Even if you don't cook much, having the kitchen torn up and off limits for whatever amount of time is very trying. One can only do paper plates/takeout for so long. Good luck!

[hshiau]

In terms of design...I've never liked the stove across the room from the sink.  Maybe you could put the stove on the other side of the room, perhaps where the "L" shape of the counter is, because you never know when you have to throw something flaming/filthy into the sink!

Actually, what I was thinking of doing is moving the sink and dishwasher to the right so I get a corner sink, and then moving the refrigerator to where the dishwasher is now. I'd prefer not moving the range since that would mean moving the gas hookup. With the range by itself, I could center it and have good counter space on both sides.

[hshiau]

I've got a question about hoods. I'd like to get one so that we don't get grease all over the kitchen every time we cook. However, since we don't have anywhere to vent, I understand that we need to use one that recirculates the air through charcoal filters.

Someone told me that this isn't worthwhile. Is this the case? Also, it seems like you can get recirculating kits for some hoods. How much extra does it typically cost for this?

[robyn]

Not having done this before, I probably would have a hard time dealing with all the different people and making sure I've got bases covered.  The questions is how much a coordinator, an architect, a general contractor, and an electrician would cost.  This is before we even look at the materials.

We'll definitely take your advice and drop by Poggenpohl to see if they have advice/information.  At the very least, I'll get a better idea about the cost.  Thanks.

Howard

Well - let's see what you can get "built into" the price of things like cabinets first (like the design and someone to install the cabinets - and maybe the designer can hire a plumber and an electrician to connect and disconnect things). Frankly - if you start with a GC - and an architect - and then all the various subs - there's no way you can make anything work with your budget (I know you couldn't do it in Jacksonville FL so I'm pretty sure you couldn't do it in NYC). I recall seeing a NYT article a while back about a small kitchen remodel in NYC - and I think the absolute bottom of the line was more than $25,000 - and that was using Ikea cabinets. Robyn

[robyn]

I suggest as a trial run, take a floor plan (to scale) with your current layout and get a price on the new cabinets & counter for a general idea of what you're heading towards. Take a sedative with you to deal with the sticker shock.

And if he does that floor plan - he can post it here too. Robyn

[robyn]

In terms of design...I've never liked the stove across the room from the sink.  Maybe you could put the stove on the other side of the room, perhaps where the "L" shape of the counter is, because you never know when you have to throw something flaming/filthy into the sink!

Actually, what I was thinking of doing is moving the sink and dishwasher to the right so I get a corner sink, and then moving the refrigerator to where the dishwasher is now. I'd prefer not moving the range since that would mean moving the gas hookup. With the range by itself, I could center it and have good counter space on both sides.

Moving anything is expensive - unless you talking about an inch or so and can connect to existing plumbing/electrical. If you move a refrigerator that has an ice maker - you'll also have to deal with additional plumbing for the water line. By the way - I assume you live in a condo or a coop. You should check what the rules are for renovations (design approvals, deposit requirements, restrictions on work hours, etc.). Robyn

[hshiau]

Moving anything is expensive - unless you talking about an inch or so and can connect to existing plumbing/electrical. If you move a refrigerator that has an ice maker - you'll also have to deal with additional plumbing for the water line. By the way - I assume you live in a condo or a coop. You should check what the rules are for renovations (design approvals, deposit requirements, restrictions on work hours, etc.). Robyn

I'm not concerned about the plumbing since the refrigerator does not have an ice maker...an I'd be moving the refrigerator to the side of the kitchen with the plumbing. But given our space limitation on that side, we may end up leaving the sink and dishwasher where they are (new ones of course), and move the fridge next to the sink. Only problem is that there's not that much room on that side and we were looking at a 36". We'll have to see.

[hshiau]

I suggest as a trial run, take a floor plan (to scale) with your current layout and get a price on the new cabinets & counter for a general idea of what you're heading towards. Take a sedative with you to deal with the sticker shock.

And if he does that floor plan - he can post it here too. Robyn

i did a quickie in visio. Not sure if this is how a floor plan should look but...

[hshiau]

I recall seeing a NYT article a while back about a small kitchen remodel in NYC - and I think the absolute bottom of the line was more than $25,000 - and that was using Ikea cabinets. Robyn

maybe we're just fooling ourselves. need to re-evaluate.

[robyn]

I recall seeing a NYT article a while back about a small kitchen remodel in NYC - and I think the absolute bottom of the line was more than $25,000 - and that was using Ikea cabinets.  Robyn

maybe we're just fooling ourselves. need to re-evaluate.

Do some window shopping. Talk with designers at several places (high end like Poggenpohl - low end like Ikea - maybe something like Home Depot at the middle low end). Design showrooms are one place you can get an awful lot of information for free - particularly if you stop in on a slow day (like a mid-weekday afternoon) to "shoot the breeze". And if the estimates don't fit your budget - all you've wasted is time.

The designers may even have some ideas which can "refresh" the kitchen at relatively low cost. I think this month's Martha Stewart Living has an example of a kitchen project like that (the finished product isn't to my taste at all - but it's reasonably attractive - and an example of what can be done on a very limited budget). Robyn

[Daddy-A]

hshiau,

Welcome to my world. I am a Certified Kitchen Designer (CKD), and I do this for a living. Unfortunately, unless you want to fly me out to NYC I can't help in person. Fortunately, there are some easy things you can do to help make this as painless as possible.

1) Start drinking heavily ...

My first piece of advice, you have already done ... budget. This is so important. And figure out your MAXIMUM budget, then back it off by about 20%. This will be the budget you tell to your contactor. Suprises behind walls, delivery chatges the appliance people forgot to tell you about, or those hand-made Italian backsplah tiles your wife must have will all add up.

Find a CKD in your area. Go to The National Kitchen & Bath Association web site and you can search by Zip code. A CKD can walk you through each step, and are especially helpfull when you just aren't sure what it is you want. They'll keep budget in mind, and are usually pretty knowledgeable about what material choices there are.

PM me if you have any specific questions, and I'll help where I can.

Arne

[hshiau]

We went to Poggenpohl and Home Depot Expo this past weekend.

We had a good conversation with the person at Poggenpohl. We gave her our floor plan and she said she would review it, come up with some suggestions, and sit down with us again to give us an initial estimate. Even on the low end, Poggenpohl will be well beyond our planned budget. She also said that installation does cost extra. However, it would be interesting to see what they think. One item of note: we talked about appliances and when I mentioned some of the negative reports on Sub-Zero refrigerators, she said that they were fine and we shouldn't listen to consumers; rather we should speak to appliance distributors.

We spent 2 hrs walking around Home Depot Expo but unfortunately, it was near closing so we didn't get a chance to sit down with the designers there. We're going again soon.