Gordon Ramsay Royal Hospital Road

[MobyP]

I think we can know he's not a genius, precisely because we're talking about what would be on the plate.

I'm not sure who said it, but I heard once, and agree with: there are two kinds of genius. The first is someone who does exactly what you do, only much, much, much better. And the second is a magician. You could live your entire life, and never know how he/she did what they did. And of course, the first is a misnomer, and not a genius at all.

I think Gordon Ramsay is in this category. I think he has the ability to work ten times as hard as anyone he knows; and of course he has the according capacity for that work, as well as a palette to know the difference. I think if something is pointed out to him as a qualitative 'good' or sign of 'excellence,' then he'll work at it over and over until he can execute that skill, or achieve that end product, better than anyone in the vicinity. Ramsay has to win, at all costs, whether it's the perfect quenelle, or three stars. I think MPW said: "perfection, it turns out, is merely doing lots of small things extremely well." I think GR took this to heart, and I think it's earned him his stars, and career, deservedly. His food is, for the most part, immaculate.

On a side note, it struck me during the meal that the room at RHR is completely emblematic of his food - warped glass sculptures, perhaps pretty on their own, but completely clashing with the striped wall paper, which clashed horribly with the spotted, speckled mirror, which had nothing to do with the shaved glass wall. Individually, these things were of very high quality, but placing them together - well it looks exactly how it is - someone who doesn't realise why these things weren't meant to be together, picking them up magpie-like, and placing them there 'for your delectation,' so to speak. On a side-side note, and as someone with not much class myself, I didn't notice any of the above unaided. My far classier better-half gave our table a deconstruction of the room that would've embarrassed a mid-coital elephant. (And I don't think we can blame it on the designer - what Gordon wants, Gordon gets. I think the last time he said the words: "oh I don't know, I'll leave it up to you." was during a dream he had when Pele turned to him and asked if he should take the penalty with his left or right foot.)

I think Pierre Gagnaire is a genius, as in a magician. When I finished the meal there and walked away, I realised that almost none of my memories of the lunch had to do with the quality of produce, or the execution of a sauce - but rather with emotions, or memories. How something made me laugh, or feel ridiculous, or moved, or touched, or bemused, or revolted, or timid, or leonine. All in the course of one meal.

And if I live to be a hundred, I'll never know how he did what he did.

[Andy Lynes]

Although,shamefully, I have never eaten his food, isn't Gagnaire anomolous at the 3 star level? Again to paraphrase MPW, restaurants with 3 stars a "playing a defensive game", holding on to what they've got by relentless consistancy, working within their known limitations. Arguably, that's bound to result in the type of experience you describe above.

The natural conclusion of the agruement is then that you don't have to be a genius to get 3 stars, and to a certain extent you spoil it for everyone else if you are.

[MobyP]

The natural conclusion of the arguement is then that you don't have to be a genius to get 3 stars, and to a certain extent you spoil it for everyone else if you are.

That's very good.

I think any truly creative personality has a curve over which that creativity communicates itself with its audience to a lesser, and then increasingly greater, finally peaking, and then once again on the downhill slope to a lesser degree.

I think MPW - who might have been a genius, to hear others speak - burned himself out trying to reach 3 stars; and whereas he himself predicted a revolution in his own cooking during his late 30's and early 40's, he found himself - having attained his superficial goal of 3 stars - and much to his own surprise - with nothing else to say with food; and only the knowledge that it hadn't brought him the 2 other things that he most wanted - money, and happiness. I think he looked around, and being a rampant narcissist, began to believe that if it was true for him, it must be true for all others. For him to maintain his 3 stars, he would have to, from then on, play a defensive game.

And Nico Ladenis proved conclusively to the world that you don't need to be a genius to get 3 stars - there are other personality traits that will substitute, if you find yourself fortunate enough to be in possession of them. He knew without a doubt that, having waited for so long - i.e. that his determination and arrogance hadn't made his attainment of 3 stars a certainty, but the latter had been contingent on the former - the sustaining of that ranking would have to be a defensive game. His 'returning' of his stars was as preposterous as his attainment of them had been.

I think Alain Ducasse - who to my knowledge hasn't cooked in years - may be unique in being both kinds of genius, but was fortunate enough to realise the ultimate truth - that there were perhaps only a dozen or so people in the world, finally, who were actually qualified to say whether he was or not on his terms. And with the exception of a few gourmands, the sort of bloated, hyper-wealthy, coked-up-escort accompanying uber-class who mistake their association with objects d'art as signifying their higher aesthetic attainment in the world, would never know whether he was or not. But, then, that was never important to them to begin with. What was and is important is his status. His 1st category of genius has been to transmogrify his worker bees - through a vast and brutal pedagogical system - into the kinds of 1st category genii themselves that will allow him to keep his 6, or 9 stars.

I think the predicates that Ramsay started with were different to all of the above. I think with help but also impressively on his own, he synthesised the obsessiveness of MPW, the refinement of the Roux, the striving for perfection of Savoy into a pedagogy of his own. Whether this pedagogy is communicable, as it has been for Ducasse, is something we're all waiting to see.

I believe that Gagnaire, as I mentioned before, is definitely in the 2nd category of genius. The magician. I don't know enough about him to know if he also possesses the pedagogical gift - although several eG members and reviewers have had extraordinary meals in London - where I understand he commutes to.

Probably I should shut up now.....

[Andy Lynes]

Whether this pedagogy is communicable, as it has been for Ducasse, is something we're all waiting to see.

Perhaps a test of that will be whether or not Wareing gets his 2 stars in January, but rightly or wrongly I have always viewed him as his own man, right from the very early days of Petrus. I think he has his own style and vision (although undoubtedly working very closely with Ramsay) and is amongst the very best that London has to offer.

[tony h]

I have always viewed him as his own man, right from the very early days of Petrus. I think he has his own style and vision

I always saw his dishes as Ramsay hand me downs & lacking in sufficient originality & vision to progress on to the 2 star level. Maybe he has finally broken away form his master shadow but having both Ramsay (boxwood) & Petrus in the same hotel it doesn't look that way.

[tony h]

I think Alain Ducasse - who to my knowledge hasn't cooked in years - may be unique in being both kinds of genius, but was fortunate enough to realise the ultimate truth - that there were perhaps only a dozen or so people in the world, finally, who were actually qualified to say whether he was or not on his terms. And with the exception of a few gourmands, the sort of bloated, hyper-wealthy, coked-up-escort accompanying uber-class who mistake their association with objects d'art as signifying their higher aesthetic attainment in the world, would never know whether he was or not. But, then, that was never important to them to begin with. What was and is important is his status. His 1st category of genius has been to transmogrify his worker bees - through a vast and brutal pedagogical system - into the kinds of 1st category genii themselves that will allow him to keep his 6, or 9 stars.

Just wondering - do you get nose bleeds a lot? I don't mean from punches but from the height of your soap box

[MobyP]

Can't find the 'nose-bleed' smiley.... searching desperately!

[Andy Lynes]

Maybe he has finally broken away form his master shadow but having both Ramsay (boxwood) & Petrus in the same hotel it doesn't look that way.

From the very little I know of the set up, I think its fair to say that Ramsay/Wareing work in close association, but then I believe that Ducasse works closely with his chefs so that shouldn't be a barrier to 2 or 3 stars.

I suppose the bottom line is that I had lost some faith in Wareing and my recent lunch has restored it. I have eaten his food far more often that Ramsay's so maybe I need another trip to RHR to get a better perspective (well, that sounds like a reasonable excuse to spend the kids Xmas present money on food to me).

[Jonathan Day]

I think Alain Ducasse - who to my knowledge hasn't cooked in years - may be unique in being both kinds of genius, but was fortunate enough to realise the ultimate truth - that there were perhaps only a dozen or so people in the world, finally, who were actually qualified to say whether he was or not on his terms. ... . His 1st category of genius has been to transmogrify his worker bees - through a vast and brutal pedagogical system - into the kinds of 1st category genii themselves that will allow him to keep his 6, or 9 stars.

Moby, I'm enjoying this topic enormously. But I'm wondering where your facts are coming from. I heard a radio interview with Ducasse last year that implied he did cook from time to time -- not much, but enough to stay in touch with his various restaurants. And he spoke of teaching in his culinary school.

He also spoke of the importance of creating well lighted and air conditioned kitchens in the school and in his restaurants, so that his cooks would have a positive experience and transmit this through their food.

Is Ducasse's pedagogical regime any more brutal than any other top chef's? Than a first-rank law firm? Than a top teaching hospital?

Perhaps Louisa could give some first hand information on all of this.

[MobyP]

Obviously when I say he hasn't cooked in years I mean hours.

Actually, it's my impression that unlike Ramsey, he isn't regularly behind the pass. But if he's travelling consistently back and forth between (at least) 2 continents, and we have every reason to believe he is whipping about, cooking and being a chef clearly aren't the top of his priorities. I still believe he plays a major role in what food is served, and what food is sourced - within the boudaries of giving his protogees some freedom, but now he's selling the Ducasse Experience. Across the board.

And I'd guess we get nada from Loufood for another few months, if then.

Edited December 4, 2003 by MobyP (log)

[Scott]

Some thoughts:

1. MPW is a genius

2. Gagnaire obviously is too. yes it is obvious.

3. Gordon is not a genius, but a fine chef nonetheless

4. ducasse is a conceptual, executive chef these days. he don't cook no more. He has a stamp, and imprints it clearly. This does not diminish his star's lustre.

5. Gordon cooks less and less these days. Shock! horror! news at 11... One of his former Sous chef's works for my wife, and tells a lovely story of how once, when he needed to attend to a customers table he ladled some gravy over his immaculate whites before entering the dining room. he does attend most services, but doesn't cook too much. Does it really matter though? doubt it, I care what is on my plate, not who cooked it.

[MobyP]

(Ducasse) has a stamp, and imprints it clearly.

Ah, the joys of psychosomatic dislexia - I read that as "He has a stump, and imprints it clearly."

Yes, I say!

I thought we were starting on the xmas captain hook jokes - Marcus Wareing being Peter Pan, I imagine. MPW is the crocodile...

By the way - basd on the meal I had, my money's on Aikens to join the (Shhh!) 'G' list.

Edited December 4, 2003 by MobyP (log)

[Scott]

(Ducasse) has a stamp, and imprints it clearly.

Ah, the joys of psychosomatic dislexia - I read that as "He has a stump, and imprints it clearly."

Moby,

I am sooo looking forward to the results of your ink blot tests!

[robyn]

BTW, El Bulli FAILS the napkin test. They just leave it where you put it. Shocking, really.

I am shocked. I thought they would replace it with a new one of a different colour each time you went to point percy at the porcelain

S

Actually the only napkin test that counts is whether the restaurant offers black napkins so you don't wind up with little white spots all over your pants/dress/whatever. Robyn

[Scottf]

[

Actually the only napkin test that counts is whether the restaurant offers black napkins so you don't wind up with little white spots all over your pants/dress/whatever. Robyn

But what if you are wearing white and they give you a black napkin? The same problem in reverse.

[robyn]

[

Actually the only napkin test that counts is whether the restaurant offers black napkins so you don't wind up with little white spots all over your pants/dress/whatever.  Robyn

But what if you are wearing white and they give you a black napkin? The same problem in reverse.

I've never seen a restaurant with black napkins that didn't have white ones too. Robyn

[Suzi Edwards]

i'm feeling grumpy that i have never been to a restaurant with black napkins.

where will i find these?

[sarah w]

Hi Guys

We are going to Ramsay's next week and i know already the table is going to me divided om whether to have 3 courses or the menu prestige..

I know it depends on what dishes appeal on the night but i am curious what others have done.

Having had some "prestige" menus in some top french & Uk restaurants we have found ourselves too full towards the end as often the dishes aren't that much smaller than on the 3 course menu.

We have often miguidedly thought that the multi courses will just be taster dishes which hasnt always been the case.

I enjoy the multi course idea as you have varierty and dont always have to make the hard decisions that often feature on the three course menu

Do u normally opt for 3courses or prestige?

If you have had the prestige have you had accompanying glasses of wine? If so how much was this approximately?

Also i have found that once u have the amuses,pre dessert etc the 3course can be often seem as much as multicourse..

Finally Does the restaurant have a "kick" out time....?

And is there a good pub nearby to have a pre dinner drink at?

Thanks

Sarah x

[Gary Marshall]

I had the menu prestige for dinner and had ALC lunch the next day.

i found the lunch more enjoyable but that may just be my preference and the fact the service was more relaxed and we got well looked after as they knew it was a return visit. ALC from memory is different dishes, to the prestige ie its not a tasting menu drawn from the alc.

the prestige is good value and you do get plenty of it, being a glutton it's not a problem for me but if you are worried about it i would suggest you ask the staff what the best way to go is - they may split alc dishes/ change prestige dishes, espec if you tell them you are trade (i seem to remember your hubby is a chef?).

At many restaurants i now do starter, split a fish course, main, cheese, desert, but then i'm a pig I'm sure they'd do similar for you if you wanted a half way between alc and prestige.

i didn't see any decent pubs nearby and they do have two sittings, but if they wanted you out they would normally tell you at the time of reservation/confirmation.

not sure that they offer an exact glass of wine to match the prestige but this may have changed, their website from memory has wine list on it so you could get a feel for the prices.

hope you enjoy it

Edited April 28, 2004 by Gary Marshall (log)

[MobyP]

I had the menu prestige, but substituted half of it. It was glorious. But it is a quantity of food. I think if you're above a medium on the glutton scale, you should manage. Medium and below, go with alc.

Gary, would you care to share with us why exactly you returned twice in two days? (And you're still denying that you're a Michelin man? Hah!)

Long live gluttony. I'm pretty sure he's a member.

[sarah w]

Thanks for info gary, i like the idea of split fish course and then meat main etc. My problem is i just have such trouble deciding from menus as i want so many different things. My "hubby" is infact a chef-well remembered, there will also be another chef (who's 30th bday it is) and 2 other friends (5 in total) so i guess that the splitting idea may be difficult to do on this occasion.

We are taking a friend & his japanese girlfriend, neither of whom have eaten this class of food. Should be an interesting night

We are going next friday...

xx

[Suzi Edwards]

i went for the prestige and was stuffed. but somehow when the tarte tatin came out i managed to find another tummy somewhere.

let us know how it was. i think i'm about due for a return visit so a reprot will tip

me over the edge!

[Gary Marshall]

Gary, would you care to share with us why exactly you returned twice in two days? (And you're still denying that you're a Michelin man? Hah!)

the short version is it was a birthday celebration.

the longer version is that i'd wanted to go and try his cooking ever since aubergine days but didn't have the wherewithal to do so, then he started RHR, i eventually got a table and one at petrus too, only to find myself flooded in the village and unable to get out, so that was cancelled.

so when the moons correctly aligned and i had both the cash, the time off, the birthday excuse (always a good one for totally unnecessary expenditure i find!) and someone to take, i booked the tables. Looking back i must have been feeling flush because this trip came on the back of 4 days in paris where we also ate at guy savoy and tour d'argent

my chef mate from york and his girlfriend were supposed to join us for lunch the next day but work got in the way and he had to cancel, i thought it a shame to waste the booking seeing as they are so hard to get and i'd waited so long to try it so off we went with the virtuous thoughts of sticking to the set lunch.

Of course once there all thoughts of parsimony went out of the window and we got stuck into the a la carte.

The night before i'd had good chats with the staff and spent a while in the kitchen after service talking to mark askew and it may have 'slipped out' it was my birthday the next day!

Of course at that time i didn't realise that virtually everyone in the restaurant the next lunchtime was celebrating something, however they did offer us a complimentary fish course which was gladly recieved, we got really well looked after and when i mentioned i fancied going to the then newly opened claridges sometime they gave me the managers direct line and we had all in all a very, very pleasant afternoon.

in fact all of this talk is giving me wallet threateningly bad ideas so i'd better stop reminding myself of how much we enjoyed that trip

cheers

gary

[PoppySeedBagel]

I ate from the menu prestige and am embarrassed to say I wasn't too stuffed. (and I'm female and slim)

[MobyP]

Gary - thanks! But I think your wallet should register seperately - a sort of Good Gary/Evil Gary duo - so we always know who's posting.