McDonald's Sued Over Its French Fries

[tommy]

I don't understand the comments made by some that suggest that vegetarians shouldn't be eating junk food.  If you're eating a healthy diet, a little junk food is fine.  Also, since everyone else in America seems to eat at McDonalds, it helps to fit in.  I think these comments are unnecessarily harsh and reflect an inability to walk in someone else's shoes.

i think that vegetarians should eat whatever they want. i also think that someone should let them know that the kitchen in mcdonalds, where their vegetables are coming from, is covered in animal fat and is manned by 16 year kids, and has been since the dawn of time.

my comment might be harsh but reflects common sense rather than a lack of compassion.

Edited July 15, 2004 by tommy (log)

[jschyun]

tommy I wasn't talking about your post.

[tommy]

tommy I wasn't talking about your post.

but i did state that i think it's ridiculous for a strict vegetarian, religious or not, to eat at mcdonalds and expect a 100% animal free product, consider the environment and process, so i figgered i'd defend it. but that's not what the article is about.

Edited July 15, 2004 by tommy (log)

[mags]

tommy I wasn't talking about your post.

but i did state that i think it's ridiculous for a strict vegetarian, religious or not, to eat at mcdonalds and expect a 100% animal free product, consider the environment and process, so i figgered i'd defend it. but that's not what the article is about.

Oy, TOMMY! Yes, McDonald's' kitchen is swimming in a haze of meat miasma, and presumably pork miasma in particular, since they use bacon in some of their stuff. Does that mean that an observant Jew, say, has no right to buy ice cream at McDonald's and assume that it will not contain lard? In fact, let's really draw out the argument. If you've got a burger joint operating on a hot day, the air around that place is going to be just DRENCHED with microscopic bits of meat-grease. If there's a vegetarian place next door, do they have the right to sneak lard into the ice cream that's served to their vegetarian clients, on the grounds that the vegetarians are, in fact, already being exposed to meat-stuff? How far up the street does the vegetarian restaurant have to be before it's required to, in fact, avoid ACTIVELY SHOVING MEAT into its nominally vegetarian products? Are vegetarians required to cross the county line before they have the right to accept a restaurant's claim of "no meat in this item" on face value?

[cakewalk]

i think that vegetarians should eat whatever they want. i also think that someone should let them know that the kitchen in mcdonalds, where their vegetables are coming from, is covered in animal fat and is manned by 16 year kids, and has been since the dawn of time.

I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that MacDonald's *deliberately* misled consumers.

[tommy]

If there's a vegetarian place next door, do they have the right to sneak lard into the ice cream that's served to their vegetarian clients, on the grounds that the vegetarians are, in fact, already being exposed to meat-stuff?

i don't think anyone should sneak anything. that's not very nice. but that's not what this article is about. perhaps they did it with the animal product in the grease for all of those years, and that wasn't very nice at all. but that's not what this article is about.

regardless, i'm not going to go to mcdonalds if i'm going to hell if i get some animal fat on my vegetable, especially if i'm feeling particularly litigious. of this you can be assured. maybe it's just me.

Edited July 15, 2004 by tommy (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

Wow! The arguments on both sides are sounding increasingly harsh around here. I'm sorry I said anything, actually.

Speaking as someone who practiced vegetarianism for some time, and as someone who has worked in restaurants of all types, I can say for sure that I've never worked in a restaurant where the french fries were guaranteed to be vegetarian, since most restaurants fry their french fries in fryers that are also used for meat. And of course, many brands of frozen french fries contain meat products as a flavoring agent. I thought it was so common that strict vegetarians would know that, since I certainly did when I was a vegetarian.

And I would not recommend that an observant jew eat the ice cream at McDonald's, as I highly doubt that it's kosher.

The one letter from a customer satisfaction representative was the only claim found, and it's also mentioned in the article in the other link. I agree with the general legal opinion that it wasn't enough of a smoking gun to suggest that it was McDonald's policy to claim their french fries were vegetarian, but rather that it was a mistake on the part of their employee. At any rate, it's fairly clear the company settled to avoid any further bad publicity.

To any vegetarians out there who might end up being traumatized otherwise, let me go ahead and warn you now that you should not eat french fries in any restaurant, thinking that they will be 100% free of animal products. If you must eat in restaurants, and want to make sure that you get no animal products whatsoever in your food, I recommend that you eat at a vegetarian Indian place.

[mags]

There are varying degrees of vegetarianism -- and of Kashruth, for that matter. I agree that anyone following strict dietary guidelines of whatever sort should probably confine him/herself to restaurants owned and run by people who share the same principles. But many people (including all of the vegetarians and most of the observant Jews I know) are not that strict: They will eat anywhere, so long as the foods they are specifically choosing to eat are not deliberately prepared with forbidden products. The keys here are "specifically choosing" and "deliberately prepared." Short of living in a hermetically sealed bubble, most people with exclusionary dietary regimes know that they cannot prevent their innards from being contaminated with some amount or other of The Bad Stuff, and they meet their dietary guidelines by choosing to eat only those foods that have been prepared without the deliberate use of said Bad Stuff. When a restaurant lies to its customers about the process of preparation, it takes that choice away from them.

[TheFoodTutor]

I don't like the term "lie" in this situation. The one letter that stated that french fries were an item that vegetarians could enjoy at McDonald's was written by an employee of the company who most likely didn't know that they contained a tiny amount of a beef product, under the heading of "natural flavorings." It's not listed under their regular indredient lists, after all. The company, on the other hand, only made the claim that the french fries were fried in 100% vegetable oil, which is not a claim that I equate with saying something is vegetarian, since other chains claim that about the oil they fry their chicken in. I usually assume they're saying that for the health claims of the oil itself, as in saturated vs. unsaturated.

I'm not sure why the deliberate adding of this substance makes a difference. I know that McDonald's add the beef product because the fries simply taste better with it in there, not so that they could trick vegetarians into eating them. I do think it's more important that the amount of the beef product in the fries is similar to the amount of beef or other animal fat that you'd find in just about every type of french fry in any restaurant.

[JasonCampbell]

One point, the fat gets filtered (hopefully) once a day. Even if you use separate fry vats for the ‘chips’, all the oil gets filtered through the same filter. In the UK the law states that the waste cooking oil is a controlled contaminant containing animal products, so therefore I’d presume that regardless of any ‘meat additive’ introduced before the cooking process, you’ll end up with some ‘meat additive’ after the cooking process.

Incidentally, Burger King in the UK sell a veggie burger approved by the Vegetarian Society, I giggle every time I think about that- who’s zooming who?

[mags]

I'm not sure why the deliberate adding of this substance makes a difference.

It makes a difference because there is a difference between the "meat fumes" to which anyone eating at McDonald's (or perhaps even in the vicinity of McDonald's) is inevitably exposed -- and over which McDonald's is not claiming to have control --- and an additive over which the company does legitimately have control and for which it can legitimately be held accountable.

Also, you say "the amount of the beef product in the fries is similar to the amount of beef or other animal fat that you'd find in just about every type of french fry in any restaurant." This strikes me as a kind of bizarre statement, and outside of the fast-food industry and the kind of echt-traditional Belgian boite that fries its frites in horse-fat, I don't think it's remotely true. Of the 26 -- count'em, 26 -- recipes for french fries on the Epicurious and FoodTV websites, not one includes any amount of "beef or other animal fat." This leads me to assume that the legal system's notorious "reasonable person" would conclude that french fries do NOT contain animal products. It would be similarly reasonable to conclude that a milkshake, say, is made of ice cream, milk, and syrup, regardless of what wacko enhancements the fast-food industry might routinely add to the standard recipe.

[klc14]

This is particularly egregious when considering the number of people who practice vegetarianism as part of the their religious faith (ie, Hindus.)

Pardon me for asking, and I know someone will probably get angry with me, but if it's important to your religious beliefs that you practice strict vegetarianism, why would you eat at McDonald's?

I'd turn that around and ask, "Why would you refuse to eat at McD's if you are a vegetarian for religious reasons?" When the company has SAID they stopped using a particular product which did not comply with your beliefs? Can't you trust McDonald's? After all, they aren't Union Carbide! It's food, not chemicals! (hmmmm.....)

Ethical vegetarians aren't against corporations necessarily. They have decided not to consume animal products (with the ovo-lacto exception, but that was not the case here). McD's claimed FALSELY that the food contained no animal products. But it did, albeit a different one ("natural flavoring" derived from animal products replacing beef tallow).

You can be a vegetarian and still eat lousy. Potato chips are vegetarian, and so is soda pop. You might stop eating meat for health reasons and still partake on "feast days" such as Thanksgiving. (The McDougall Program allows that). But Hindus, as the example given, don't eat ANY meat. Used to work with a guy who was a Hindu; we would order out from Chili's, he'd get the vegetarian quesadilla and all the while he was eating, he'd be looking for that scrap of chicken they **invariably** put in there. They apparently couldn't get the concept of meat-free. And of course he had to stop eating it then. No chicken no problem, you know? We could all order from the same place.

I think there was an aspect of the outrage in the Mccase that McDonald's is opening restaurants in India, where there are many many Hindus. The Indian Hindus as well as Indian-American Hindus, immigrants and visiting workers, and some ethical vegetarians were angry that McDonald's was not respecting their (not practiced at Hamburger U.) religious beliefs while claiming it did. And taking their money.

If you are saying FAST FOOD = UNTRUSTWORTHY AT ANY PRICE, well....I won't argue that. But then why do all those non-vegetarians eat there?

My $.50 on the matter (adjusted for inflation).

[tommy]

It would be similarly reasonable to conclude that a milkshake, say, is made of ice cream, milk, and syrup, regardless of what wacko enhancements the fast-food industry might routinely add to the standard recipe.

mmmmm. beefshake.

[klc14]

Wow! The arguments on both sides are sounding increasingly harsh around here. I'm sorry I said anything, actually.

Speaking as someone who practiced vegetarianism for some time, and as someone who has worked in restaurants of all types, I can say for sure that I've never worked in a restaurant where the french fries were guaranteed to be vegetarian, since most restaurants fry their french fries in fryers that are also used for meat.

Aw, come on, don't be like that, controversy is not evil if we all mind our manners. Everybody has been restrained and thoughtful while expressing their opinions in this thread, compared to some I've seen. (I hope I have, too).

And it may be that people who have never SEEN a fast food restaurant or thought about how it works, would have no idea about the "one fryer fries all" thing. I worked (3 days) in a fast food restaurant that DID only fry potatoes in one vat. They did the fish in a different vat. However, that was years ago and they prob'ly do use one fryer now.

[TheFoodTutor]

Why would you refuse to eat at McD's?

For obvious reasons. I do it all the time, in fact, and I'm no longer a vegetarian.

Probably the biggest reason for me to bow out of this increasingly ridiculous argument is that people seem to be perceiving me as an advocate for fast food, and as someone whose experience in restaurants lies primarily in fast food, and I am neither.

As far as fries being put in the same fryer as meat, that comment holds true for the fast food, full service, upscale casual and fine dining restaurants where I've worked.

Edited July 16, 2004 by TheFoodTutor (log)

[Mabelline]

Food Tutor--very nice website!!

[TheFoodTutor]

Thank you very much, Mabelline.

[klc14]

Why would you refuse to eat at McD's?

For obvious reasons. I do it all the time, in fact, and I'm no longer a vegetarian.

Probably the biggest reason for me to bow out of this increasingly ridiculous argument is that people seem to be perceiving me as an advocate for fast food, and as someone whose experience in restaurants lies primarily in fast food, and I am neither.

As far as fries being put in the same fryer as meat, that comment holds true for the fast food, full service, upscale casual and fine dining restaurants where I've worked.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't perceiving you as a fast food person, cooking or consuming -- your tag and site make it obvious your interests are in another direction. As far as the fries and fryers, a person who has NEVER worked in a restaurant or thought about it much, might not realize, was my point. Okay, that person would probably be a pretty naive, overly trusting person overall.

mabelline is right, your site is great! Attractive and appealing.

[TheFoodTutor]

Thanks again for the comments about my website. I certainly have been getting a lot of interesting calls in the last few days, since I've been more active in posting here.

I am all of the time forgetting that there are a number of people who have never worked in a restaurant, since my very first job was in a restaurant, before I went on to try a few different careers, and then moved back into the restaurant field. It seems there are just so many obvious benefits to restaurant experience:

You can learn lots of important things about food safety, proper temperatures for holding hot and cold foods, proper cooling procedures, etc.

You can learn to get along with a variety of people you might not meet in your regular, day-to-day activities.

You can learn how to multi-task and handle stressful situations.

Most importantly, you can learn that it's not wise to snap your fingers at a waitress, or generally to be rude and condescending to anyone who is handling the food you will consume.

I just popped out for a Cuban sandwich at a little shop, and there was a woman at the register with 8 different orders to be rung in separately, all with separate bills requiring change for all of them, and many of them were for amounts as small as $3.50. It was obviously very annoying to the cashier, who was nervously eyeing the growing line of patrons, waiting to place their orders, too.

I'd have to say that if I worked in an office where I didn't trust my co-workers enough that I could come up with a more convenient way to order out, I'd quickly resign myself to just packing sandwiches.

[jschyun]

Speaking as someone who practiced vegetarianism for some time, and as someone who has worked in restaurants of all types, I can say for sure that I've never worked in a restaurant where the french fries were guaranteed to be vegetarian, since most restaurants fry their french fries in fryers that are also used for meat. And of course, many brands of frozen french fries contain meat products as a flavoring agent. I thought it was so common that strict vegetarians would know that, since I certainly did when I was a vegetarian.

Food Tutor, i kind of agree with you when you say it's not a good idea for strict (religious I guess) vegetarians to order fries period. I did eat fries when i was a vegetarian, but not very often, and not when i was a vegan.

However, I think that unlike you, the general public is not aware of all the hidden flavorings in various things. They don't have the experience and access that you, a food professional, do. Really the only thing that a normal, non-food-professional can do is write or call the company to check. That's why vegans I know try to call or write the company before eating what appears to them to be a questionable product. That's why when people called or wrote to the company and got a very inaccurate answer, they were ticked off.

I think the french fries thing did come as a shock to a lot of people. it's just not an intuitive thing. When I think french fries, I think oil and potatoes. I don't think a little beef flavoring on the side. Sure you can fry in lard, but McDonald's said it was all oil at that point. Maybe you, as a food professional, can roll your eyes at me, but I just don't see french fries as a non-vegetarian product.

also I suspect there was a little culture clash going on, which may or may not have added fuel to the fire.

[TheFoodTutor]

Well, I was a vegetarian mostly at times when I wasn't working in restaurants, and I practiced a number of different versions at different times. My first job was in a fast food place, and at that time I remember ordering a veggie version of a burger, partly because it was really, really cheap with my 1/2 price discount, and partly because I was trying to eat "healthy." I wasn't vegan at that time, and I had a pretty good idea that the mayonnaise on my sandwich might be somewhat contaminated with a slight hint of beef product - an easy thing to do if you're spreading with the same spatula on veggie and non-veggie items - but I wasn't strict when I was 16, so I figured it was OK.

I went through various phases of vegetarianism, from an all raw food diet to basically just not eating red meat, and my restaurant habits varied accordingly. There were many times that I simply prepared all of my own food, and many of my vegetarian friends did the same, since it's so much cheaper, fairly easy, and you can absolutely assure what is and isn't going into what you eat.

During the times that I was very strict, I couldn't have possibly even entered a McDonald's, because the whole place reeks of cooked beef and fryer grease - which I also never touched during strict vegan periods.

Maybe it's just my personality that's different. It never even occurred to me that there could have been a strict vegetarian who would have no problem going to McDonald's and ordering french fries prepared by 16 year olds, who would then be utterly shocked that there is a minuscule amount of beef fat in them.

But then again, now that I've waited tables here and there, and seen people come in and state that they're "vegetarian" so what can they order? And then they say that they'll just have the chicken dish. I really don't think anything should surprise me anymore.

[mags]

Again, I would suggest that there is a significant difference between a "minuscule amount of beef fat" that creeps into the fries as a result of some sloppy processing on the part of inattentive 16-year-old servers, and meat flavoring that the company deliberately, knowingly adds to the product.

For what it's worth, I worked in close to a dozen restaurants when I was younger, both in the kitchen and FOH. I was never given any indication that the fries contained meat flavoring, nor did I observe this. And nope, I'm neither stupid nor inobservant. I think you are setting the "reasonable man" hurdle ludicrously high, to the point where the average person -- with our without restaurant experience, and "without" is going to significantly prevail -- should assume that a vegetable fried in vegetable oil in fact contains meat.