Crimes Against Alcohol

[beans]

I'll tell you our Jäger sales outsold our well vodka last season -- a first ever.  And!  We are certainly not a college bar.  I'm witness to many a 30-40 something year olds ordering up Jäger Bombs, Sex with Alligators and Oatmeal Cookies.

With all due respect to your clientele, these aren't exactly sophisticated drinks (Jaegermeister and Red Bull?!?) and, of course, the average 30-40 something bar patron is not exactly a sophisticated consumer of cocktails.

Do you have supportable target market demographics or is this personal theory Sam?

Then, sometime in the late 70s or early 80s a rumor developed that the herbal infusions in Jaegermeister (often claimed to contain opiates) would somehow get you extra fucked up if you drank a lot of it.

Urban myth. That has happened to many foods and spirits. Sad.

But, let's be honest here... not too many bar patrons are savoring the flavors of Jaegermeister.  It's typically consumed quickly as possible as a novelty -- but primarily as an alcohol delivery system.

I won't tell our very proper, regal, old word German lady (our former accountant) of that when she enjoyed a glass of it.

I enjoy the flavours of Jägermeister. Sometimes even savor them and get eager with anticipation for that first one. Really. With the overall sales of the liquor, I'd doubt I'm the only one or in a minority.

Sam, sometimes some can go out and have fun and enjoy a drink with a group of friends or one they've never had before that isn't one of those great classics. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy an appropriately made classic or actually even prefer them.

Something to think about.

AND! Spelling! It is not Jaeger! It is Jäger!

[trillium]

I suppose I find it a tad petty to sneer at another for their food or beverage choices. (read: snobbish)

Again, why care what anyone else drinks or eats? We all make our choices and I prefer not judge others. My general outlook tends to be "You're fine; I'm fine."

Well, you're clearly a more enlightened human than I! It's certainly not the first and most likely won't be the last time I've been called a snob. Probably a good reason why you're in the service industry and I'm not, right?

regards,

trillium

[beans]

I suppose I find it a tad petty to sneer at another for their food or beverage choices.  (read:  snobbish)

Again, why care what anyone else drinks or eats?  We all make our choices and I prefer not judge others.  My general outlook tends to be "You're fine; I'm fine."

Well, you're clearly a more enlightened human than I! It's certainly not the first and most likely won't be the last time I've been called a snob. Probably a good reason why you're in the service industry and I'm not, right?

regards,

trillium

Spotting snobism (is that a word?) has nothing to do with being in the service industry. Anyone can do it.

[JAZ]

Again, I don't get this judgmental thing about what others choose to drink.  And before anyone gets upset by that, remember it is my job to please the guest and provide what they have requested. 

Again, it's simply a difference in perspective. You are paid to not be judgmental about what your customers drink, just as a waiter is paid to not be judgmental about what his customers eat. But, that doesn't mean that one may not have an opinion about eating a well-done dry-aged porterhouse or drinking a big glass of Jaegermeister on the rocks (both of which I would characterize as misuses of good products). Indeed, I would suggest that we wouldn't have much to talk about on eGullet if we were constrained from remarking on trends having to do with what people choose to eat and drink.

Strictly speaking, those in the service industry can be as judgmental as they want; they get paid not to show it. I get paid to listen to (sometimes) really stupid questions and comments about cookware and not let my opinion show. It doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.

Beans gets paid to serve anything her patrons want and keep a straight face. That, I completely understand. What she seems to be saying, though, is that she doesn't ever have a negative opinion about her patrons' requests, and that seems to require superhuman control.

[jbonne]

Was there some incredible campus marketing campaign once upon a time?

yes, or at least a big campaign in bars with campus proximity. but now i'm curious exactly why it worked ...

[edited to note that JAZ pointed out the key success ingredient: scantily clad drink women. shame to me for not guessing the obvious.]

Edited July 1, 2004 by jbonne (log)

[Andrew Fenton]

AND!  Spelling!  It is not Jaeger!  It is Jäger! 

Hm? As far as I know, a digraph is a perfectly acceptable substitution for an umlaut.

Edited July 1, 2004 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[beans]

Nothing superhuman about it.

I simply believe that my opinion about what someone is eating or drinking: How does that matter?

Does it matter to me that you, Janet, love gin and I don't? Nope. I do often order a gin drink for a change and widen my horizons of enjoying differing spirits. Because I hate some gin distillers, I don't hate all gin or think any less of it or those that drink it. I simply don't have the interest to care.

I didn't care about the clothing business women were purchasing at Ann Taylor when I was a manager, or the super glittery, very pink Minnie Mouse t-shirt that we sold many of when I worked for Disney. Those are appropriate choices for that person, maybe not for me, but who am I to assert an opinion?

[jbonne]

Again, why care what anyone else drinks or eats? We all make our choices and I prefer not judge others. My general outlook tends to be "You're fine; I'm fine."

snobbism or not, it's folly to believe that what other people put in their mouths doesn't impact me.

this isn't a matter of whether someone eats meat, or drinks whiskey, or not. it's a matter of how the commercial world caters to unfortunate cultural preferences.

Americans eat bad, fatty meat -- so that's what's available to me now in most restaurants. Americans drink a lot of bad, vapid mixed drinks -- so while i can find 10 types of fruity liqueur on the store shelf, i struggle to find a decent small-batch rye.

so while i can't condemn someone for eating or drinking what he or she likes, i can certainly think less of them for it.

[beans]

Was there some incredible campus marketing campaign once upon a time?

yes, or at least a big campaign in bars with campus proximity. but now i'm curious exactly why it worked ...

[edited to note that JAZ pointed out the key success ingredient: scantily clad drink women. shame to me for not guessing the obvious.]

Ah, but that isn't unique to Jäger. And I'm sure they weren't the first to employ such a campaign. I can think of a dozen different beer or liquor campaigns that institute the nearly naked woman -- in the flesh passing out samples during our busy weekends for years now.

Sex sells.

I'll have to dig into my old marketing resources for explanations of the Jäger phenomena. If I feel properly motivated....

[jbonne]

Ah, but that isn't unique to Jäger.

i think Captain Morgan has since outdone Jäger/Jaeger by several laps. and they have keychains, too.

[edited to fix the diacritical]

Edited July 1, 2004 by jbonne (log)

[johnnyd]

I gasp when I hear people order Henessey and coke. Why? Why? Why?

A regular at my favourite bar orders a Henessey and PBR (side). We all call it a "high 'n low". He's in the liquor biz too!

Edited July 1, 2004 by johnnyd (log)

[beans]

Again, why care what anyone else drinks or eats?  We all make our choices and I prefer not judge others.  My general outlook tends to be "You're fine; I'm fine."

snobbism or not, it's folly to believe that what other people put in their mouths doesn't impact me.

this isn't a matter of whether someone eats meat, or drinks whiskey, or not. it's a matter of how the commercial world caters to unfortunate cultural preferences.

Americans eat bad, fatty meat -- so that's what's available to me now in most restaurants. Americans drink a lot of bad, vapid mixed drinks -- so while i can find 10 types of fruity liqueur on the store shelf, i struggle to find a decent small-batch rye.

so while i can't condemn someone for eating or drinking what he or she likes, i can certainly think less of them for it.

jbonne, while I respect your point of view, for the sake of potentially offending many an American (or perhaps not) can we keep the nationalism out of it?

While I'm not personally offended, I do tend to wholly detest gross sweeping generalisations, platitudes and stereotypical points of view.

What that person on in the next barstool drinks in now way impacts upon my out and about cocktail experience and they could be drinking cat piss for all I care. I worry about what I'm drinking and how it is being concocted!

edit: clarity; typing much slower and sloppier than thinking....

Edited July 1, 2004 by beans (log)

[Chef Shogun]

Then, sometime in the late 70s or early 80s a rumor developed that the herbal infusions in Jaegermeister (often claimed to contain opiates) would somehow get you extra fucked up if you drank a lot of it.

Urban myth. That has happened to many foods and spirits. Sad.

Good old urban myths. I remember even when I was very young (late-mid-80s), probably before I even knew what vodka was, hearing that Jäger contained herbs of a hallucinogenic nature and was therefore a banned substance! How little New England coastal town kids got this particular bit of {mis}information I have no idea, but I remember comming to college and seeing some at a party, and having something waaay in the back of my mind be like 'Wait, they can actually sell this stuff here??' I was never an underage drinker so I never really looked into the truth of the matter, so part of that myth stuck with me! Man, I almost hate to admit that.

-- C.S.

"Avoiding Carrots So As Not To Turn Orange Since 1986"

[Chef Shogun]

I can think of a dozen different beer or liquor campaigns that institute the nearly naked woman -- in the flesh passing out samples during our busy weekends for years now.

Sex sells.   

Ugh, not for X-Treme Vodka. All the naked marketing reps in the world couldn't get me to take another shot of that stuff. The first shot offeredy by a clothed rep at the local liquor store doesn't count. I didn't know what I was getting into!

Is the slate still open for nominations?

Edited July 1, 2004 by Chef Shogun (log)

[beans]

-- C.S.

"Avoiding Carrots So As Not To Turn Orange Since 1986"

Oh, the deer blood that it purportedly contained as well....

How on earth did Absinthe become so popular?

[jbonne]

While I'm not personally offended, I do tend to wholly detest gross sweeping generalisations, platitudes and stereotypical points of view.

What that person on in the next barstool drinks in now way impacts upon my out and about cocktail experience and they could be drinking cat piss for all I care.  I worry about what I'm drinking and how it is being concocted! 

jbonne, while I respect your point of view, for the sake of offending many an American can we leave out the nationalism out of it? 

on balance, i don't like when people indulge in the sort of stereotyping you describe. but the trends i was describing are pretty well-founded. we do eat a lot of meat with high fat content. (not me personally, but after covering the beef industry, i now spend a lot of time choosing my meat carefully.) we do buy a lot of flavored liquor, far more than small batch artisanal whiskey.

the person on the next barstool doesn't impact my cocktail experience (unless, as noted elsewhere, their larger preference and that of everyone else there prompts the bar to stop serving drinks i like, in which case i have to find another place to drink). but i'm certainly less inclined to coverse politely with someone who's downing kamikaze shooters, assuming they're in any shape to converse at all.

all that said, and as noted above, i respect that you and anyone who's serving the ever-finicky public have to appreciate a polyglot approach to consumption. i did. and now i get to quietly snicker with servers in my favorite establishments at some of my fellow patrons' choices. it is snobbish, no doubt.

[trillium]

Nothing superhuman about it.

I simply believe that my opinion about what someone is eating or drinking: How does that matter?

Does it matter to me that you, Janet, love gin and I don't? Nope. I do often order a gin drink for a change and widen my horizons of enjoying differing spirits. Because I hate some gin distillers, I don't hate all gin or think any less of it or those that drink it. I simply don't have the interest to care.

I didn't care about the clothing business women were purchasing at Ann Taylor when I was a manager, or the super glittery, very pink Minnie Mouse t-shirt that we sold many of when I worked for Disney. Those are appropriate choices for that person, maybe not for me, but who am I to assert an opinion?

Except when you judge that someone else is being a snob.

Then it's ok to "assert an opinion" about them.

Lecturing people about their uncomplementary opinions about what other people eat or drink on a forum devoted to having opinions about food and drink seems to defeat the whole purpose. I think we all know there is a difference between thinking that what someone is drinking is vile and thinking that the people themselves are vile. You aren't what you drink, right? Because if you are, those Humping Alligator drinkers really are in a world of trouble.

regards,

trillium

[beans]

I didn't state anyone is a snob trillium.

I did state my thoughts on snobbish behaviour. And I asked "why care about what another drinks?" (look at how many times I typed those words!)

Let's keep the personal out of this, okay?

[beans]

Lecturing people about their uncomplementary opinions about what other people eat or drink on a forum devoted to having opinions about food and drink seems to defeat the whole purpose. I think we all know there is a difference between thinking that what someone is drinking is vile and thinking that the people themselves are vile. You aren't what you drink, right? Because if you are, those Humping Alligator drinkers really are in a world of trouble.

ahem. Ironic, eh? (Who is lecturing here?!? )

So, let's change the "Humping Alligator" drinks and call them __________-tinis?

I'm all for trying a new drink with a fun name. Thank god my customers are in the same boat and we make some sales.

Yes, the world is going up in flames for those Humping Alligators, Smurf Piss, Sex on the Beach, ad nauseum, drinks.

[Chef Shogun]

So, let's change the "Humping Alligator" drinks and call them __________-tinis?

Flows right off the tongue: Humping Alligator-tini.

...in a dirty glass!!

Edited to point out that if the customer didn't want much vermouth, it would be a "Dry Humping Alligator-tini", so it works on many levels.

Edited July 2, 2004 by Chef Shogun (log)

[beans]

Silly!!

[slkinsey]

Okay guys, I am going to nip this one in the bud. We are going to consider the "snob" fork of this discussion closed from this point forward, and I'll recommend that the Forum Host consider some selective deletion of posts.

I would like to offer the following, however, for the edification of any who may care to read it: A "snob," in the pejorative sense in which it is occasionally used in these forums, is "one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste." Different people will, of course, have different thresholds for what is offensive to their sensibilities. Implicit in this definition is that the extent to which any opinion or person is perceived by another as "snobbish" depends entirely on the other party's interpretation, and that is an interpretation which is filtered through the other party's own opinions and biases. I would caution us to all be aware of these tendencies, and would also suggest that it is appropriate for the participants in a food-related discussion forum to endeavor to have the broadest possible tolerance for expressions and opinions having to do with knowledge and taste as they relate to food and drink.

One of the things that eGullet and its members would like to promote and discuss is excellence in food and drink, regardless of the "level of fancyness" of same. Yet, in any subject of discussion, one finds that those who endorse excellence, high achievement, the use of the best possible tools, raw materials, etc. are labeled as "snobs" by those who perhaps do not share these priorities. It is entirely appropriate for members on these boards to decry what they perceive as shortcomings in any topic area having to do with food or drink, including, when appropriate, the customer base and how it has contributed to those shortcomings. If we may talk about what McDonald's restaurants/patrons have done to the American hamburger, and we may talk about what Olive Garden restaurants/patrons have done to Italian-American food and independent middlebrow American restaurants, we certainly may share our opinions about how people in America are consuming their alcohol and what it is doing/has done to the American cocktail.

Please be advised that this is not an invitation for public discussion of the foregoing in this thread.

[Exotic Mushroom]

Fundamentally, there is no reason people shouldn't consume Fernet Branca, Branca Menta, Underberg, etc. exactly the same way, although I am not sure why anyone would want to.

Fernet neat is not as popular as Jaeger around here, but pretty common, especially among restaurant and bar workers. I don't understand it at all.

[bergerka]

Fernet neat is not as popular as Jaeger around here, but pretty common, especially among restaurant and bar workers. I don't understand it at all.

I don't either. It tastes like really nasty cough syrup to me.

And Jaegermeister always reminds me of frat boys.

K

[reesek]

You might as well be ordering shots of Kaluha!

you've just reminded me of a great moment in (my) history.

this past april i had the tremendous fortune to find myself in paris for a few days. my boyfriend and i went to buddha bar for a drink. it was very loud, but after we ordered our ketel & tonics i'm positive (and so is rob) that the waitress repeated back our order - 2 ketel & tonic...so i was puzzled to see the dark glasses placed in front of us. and for the record - kahlua and tonic is as gross as it sounds. but it cracked us up.

I'll often order Ketel greyhounds on a hot day. I guess I save my Chopin (not a fan of Goose) for drinking neat, but I can completely tell the difference between Ketel, Stoli, Absolut, and well in a greyhound. I've had people tell me it makes no difference and I've dared them to blind tastings and I've never failed. Even when they try to pull sneaky things like putting half well and half Ketel in the drink.

i drink ketel if i can get it because i feel infinitely better the next morning than if i drink call liquor.