Tabla and New Indian Cooking In America

[jschyun]

It just occurred to me that the organizers of the event called it "New Indian Cooking in America" simply to distinguish this sort of fusion type of cooking, with Indian Indian food, for the event. Perhaps we could get enlightened here with a comment from an organizer?

[tommy]

I am in no doubt that he is entirely accurate when it comes to North America, but to say that Tabla "one of the world's most important restaurants" is simply grandstanding.

walking away from that dinner you might have been convinced of the same, for editorial purposes at least.

[Suzi Edwards]

Andy, the title I gave to this thread was "New Indian Cooking In America, at Tabla and beyond." I have no doubt there are important New Indian restaurants in the UK -- that would seem almost inevitable. However, as to your chronology, I should note that Vij opened in 1994 and was in Vancouver making his case since 1989, and I have no idea when Madhur Jaffrey wrote the first of her 15 cookbooks.

i think madhur jaffrey might be more in the uk/indian food continuum than the us one

click

that said, tabla's definitly on my list next time i am in ny

(edit cos i can't spell)

Edited June 9, 2004 by tarka (log)

[Fat Guy]

It just occurred to me that the organizers of the event called it "New Indian Cooking in America" simply to distinguish this sort of fusion type of cooking, with Indian Indian food, for the event. Perhaps we could get enlightened here with a comment from an organizer?

If I can get permission, I will post the two-page brochure they sent us home with. It contains a concise statement of principles and bios of the chefs.

[Pumpkin Lover]

Sigh. I'm at a desk without Lexis-Nexis. In any case, I'd like to note that Mark Bittman, either last year or the year before, did a lovely travel piece in the Times about restaurants in New Delhi. As Tarka said in disagreeing with Jinmyo, there *is* a definite, strong, and flourishing restaurant culture in India. Just as chefs in America try to improve and create new ideas upon old ideas of "American" or "New World" or "Mediterranean" or "whatever" cuisine, chefs in India are doing the same to their home cuisine. I can't remember if Jeffrey Steingarten hit upon these points in his Vogue piece on North Indian vegetarian cuisine.

Sorry if this has been said before.

Also, please read this wonderful article by Monica Bhinde in the Wash Post. It's about food served during a Hindu wedding celebration. She mentions the cuisines served: Swiss, Italian, Japanese, Continental, Mongolian, etc. She states, "The rush to the Teppanyaki cooking station with grilled Japanese food and the salad bar with more than 20 types of salads cued me into what was hot that night." I wonder how Indians would know and love this kind of food if it did not exist in some kind of restaurant culture in India. As well, there are obviously tons of new ideas and influences hitting India now, thus influencing what some of the posters here are calling "New Indian" cuisine. Like others, I hesistate to label the phenomenon of the development of Indian cuisine by that name, but ya know, whatever floats your boat.

One more thing, and I don't mean to poke a dead horse, but: in re-reading Mongo's posts, I sense a cultural gulf between Westerners who are analyzing this phenomenon of "New Indian" cuisine, and Indians or diasporic Indians (like me) who are doing the same. As Mongo stated in one of his posts, the dishes served at the Tabla dinner, while new to an American diner, are familiar or traditional to Indian diners (for example, when I went to Amma with a Bengali friend, she noted that the cauliflower was exactly like a dish she could eat in Bengal). Amma's focus on regional Indian cuisine was new and huge in America--it broke down India on a plate in a way that restaurants in the US haven't done before. Now, there were flavors and combinations that I wasn't familiar with when I ate at Amma. But, for my Bengali friend to tell me that the cauliflower was familiar to her was interesting. I was eating something new, and she was eating something old or familiar. I think that that is what is happening with this "New Indian" stuff right now. Some of the ideas that are considered "new" in this cuisine may actually be regional and also unknown to the American palate. Thus, it's "new." But, for Indians, it may not be so new at all, and when we're all trying to label cuisines and ideas with just one or two words, we need to consider who exactly we're talking to.

Dang. Sorry about all that.

BTW, FG, I'm jealous. You made Jaffrey's shrimp sound like heaven.

Edited to add a parenthetical insert

Edited June 9, 2004 by Pumpkin Lover (log)

[Andy Lynes]

By reaching beyond its walls, and by making itself a nexus of a culinary movement, and by doing so with a great deal of credibility and humility -- chosing to share its podium with like-minded chefs -- Tabla joins an elite group of restaurants that think in terms of national and international movements.

How will Tabla "reach beyond its walls" outside of this media friendly 5th birthday party designed to re-awaken interest in a restaurant that may have dropped off New Yorker's radar for whatever reason. I wouldn't question for a moment that the food wasn't as good as you say, that a great time wasn't had by all or that Danny Meyer didn't deliver a truely rousing speech, but chefs of all stripes are more than happy to travel the world to cook at each other's restaurants. How is this any different from what in the restaurant world is pretty much a daily occurance?

[Andy Lynes]

The question, though, is do these New Indian restaurants in the UK strive for something akin to a self-conscious movement, or are they just cooking what they cook? I'm asking that as a question.

That's a good question and one that I will try and get the answer to. My guess is that there is bound to be shared goals amongst Indian chefs cooking at the highest levels in London, but whether or not they refer to themselves as "New Indian" cooks or feel they are part of a movement, I don't know.

[Fat Guy]

If this sort of thing is occurring on a daily basis, I must be totally out of it.

This was not a media event. It was for the chefs and for Tabla's loyal customers, of which I am one. There were also some media invitations issued, and I was lucky enough to glom onto one so I didn't have to pay the $150. But I would say that not a single article (unless you count what I wrote here) will appear about this dinner, so the media outreach effort here was more along the lines of advocacy for the movement than simple PR for Tabla, which hardly needs more business given its top-20 spot in Zagat and its routinely overflowing dining rooms. Prosperous restaurants like Tabla are in the enviable position of being able to spread some of the wealth, bring in people like Vij, close the place down for a whole night for what was no doubt a money losing event, and do something for cuisine and the cause of excellence. I applaud it.

I would certainly distinguish between something like this and a guest chef event or Beard House type dinner. This was a significant assemblage of talent built upon a belief that we are at a certain moment.

I'm a Westerner, and American, and I speak from that perspective. I surely hope nobody thinks I am trying to speak from any other perspective. Nonetheless, it's not as though North America is an insignificant perch from which to view the culinary world, and especially new movements in cuisine. And I hope I've made clear that the food served at this dinner, essentially a banquet, was not in and of itself groundbreaking. As well, I have problems with the cuisine at Tabla on any given day. This event was about more than the food served at it, Tabla is about more than what it puts on the plate, and my comments are about more than just a party. If I have failed to convince people of that, so be it -- I expect history will lend some additional perspective that perhaps I as an individual cannot.

[tommy]

This was not a media event. It was for the chefs and for Tabla's loyal customers, of which I am one. There were also some media invitations issued, and I was lucky enough to glom onto one so I didn't have to pay the $150.

i was wondering what the demographic might be. my table consisted of a chef's wife, a partner of danny meyer, a food writer from savuer, a food writer from some other huge food magazine, another partner of one of the chefs, and writer from a huge news network...and me and my wife. i got the feeling i was the only one spending my own money that night. so yeah, who else was there? if my table was any indication, they may have made a lot of calls to get people to come down.

[Andy Lynes]

I'm a Westerner, and American, and I speak from that perspective.

Its fine to speak as an American if you only comment about what is happening in that area of the globe. However, your comments appeared to indicate that you believed Tabla to be leading the world in the modernisation of Indian cuisine. If you are going to make that sort of grand pronouncement, then you need to be cognisant of what is actually happening in the rest of the world. It seems to me that you are completely unaware of what has been going on in London for the last decade, and that if you were, you would realise that you are on seriously shaky ground.

[Fat Guy]

The event sold out early and was overbooked; I was able to get in only on a cancellation. At our table were 4 people who were Tabla customers, 2 were Indian (a vascular surgeon and his wife from Long Island) and seemed to know all the other Indians and half the chefs and two were white guys with generic corporate jobs who happened to be Indian food fanatics. And there was a writer from Town & Country. I saw some other media folks around the room, but your table sounds as though it was atypical. Some of the tables were, I'm quite sure, 100% customers. I don't think there were any 100% media tables. I can get the exact demographic from the boss, though, when I ask for permission to post the brochure here.

[Jason Perlow]

Fat Guy says:

Chefs working in the US were the driving force behind Asian fusion.

Jason Perlow on why "New Indian" is not simply fusion cooking, unlike Asian food as treated with American techniques/ingredients:

Because Asian Fusion originated outside of the US. In Europe, I think.

Eh?

My understanding is much of the original Asian Fusion stuff was pioneered in France (this being a natural evolution of French influence on Vietnamese and Thai cuisine), but became much more popularized by chefs in the US, like Roy Yamaguchi, Martin Yan and Ming Tsai -- although the styles of these chefs are more "Pan Asian" than Asian Fusion. When I think of "Fusion" I generally think of the fusing of two disparately different cultures, such as French and Chinese, or Indian/French. Or something totally bizarre like Brazilian/Japanese like you find at Sushi Samba in NYC. Pan Asian and Asian Fusion are very similar cuisines however, and its hard to tell apart in many cases as the techniques and approaches used in both are similar if not the same.

[Fat Guy]

The question, though, is do these New Indian restaurants in the UK strive for something akin to a self-conscious movement, or are they just cooking what they cook? I'm asking that as a question.

That's a good question and one that I will try and get the answer to. My guess is that there is bound to be shared goals amongst Indian chefs cooking at the highest levels in London, but whether or not they refer to themselves as "New Indian" cooks or feel they are part of a movement, I don't know.

I would suggest that if you, as a vigorous observer of your national food scene, don't know the answer, then the question is in part already answered.

[Andy Lynes]

I'm a Westerner, and American, and I speak from that perspective.

Its fine to speak as an American if you only comment about what is happening in that area of the globe.

I can't wait to haunt you with this ridiculous statement for the rest of your life!

My point was that being an American does not give you the automatic right to assume that everything that happens within your shores is of global significance. (Although thinking about it, its probably written in your constitution.)

[tommy]

My understanding is much of the original Asian Fusion stuff was pioneered in France (this being a natural evolution of French influence on Vietnamese and Thai cuisine), ...

there's a french influence on thai cuisine?

[Fat Guy]

I'm a Westerner, and American, and I speak from that perspective.

Its fine to speak as an American if you only comment about what is happening in that area of the globe.

I can't wait to haunt you with this ridiculous statement for the rest of your life!

My point was that being an American does not give you the automatic right to assume that everything that happens within your shores is of global significance. (Although thinking about it, its probably written in your constitution.)

The scope of the event -- bringing together chefs from both coasts and both Canada and the US -- speaks for itself. To me that, combined with the Indian component, adds up to global significance. I guess to you it doesn't, perhaps because no chef from the UK was included. And that does strike me as an omission; but it does not negate the significance of the event or the ideas behind it. In any event, the semantics of significance and perspective are of little interest beyond the fact that for me, someone who is not easily moved by gimmicks and staged events, it was a deeply moving evening that I felt was emblematic of an important moment.

[Andy Lynes]

In any event, the semantics of significance and perspective are of little interest

If you are going to make defining statements about the development and direction of a cuisine, then the semantics of significance and perspective are of enourmous interest. It wasn't the lack of a UK chef at the event that troubled me, it was their absense from your arguement.

I simply cannot see Tabla as the Indian equivilent of el Bulli, which is one way of interpreting what you are saying. I'll be very interested to learn if UK chefs view it as such.

[Fat Guy]

It wasn't the lack of a UK chef at the event that troubled me, it was their absense from your arguement.

It's possible for something to be significant without involving the UK. However, it was clearly an omission not to have a UK chef represented at the event -- it would have I think offered a much more complete representation of the Western nations that are currently taking Indian cuisine the most seriously: UK, US, and Canada. I'm not sure what more you want. I've made all the arguments I have to make for why this event is important to New Indian cuisine in the West, in North America, in New York, among the chefs involved, and to me personally; that would seem to cover the range of definitional possibilities. If you remain steadfastly unconvinced, so be it. Even if there is an equally important New Indian cuisine movement going in in the UK, however, I fail to see how it takes anything away from the grand accomplishments of this group of chefs.

[Fat Guy]

I simply cannot see Tabla as the Indian equivilent of el Bulli, which is one way of interpreting what you are saying.

El Bulli is driving a school of thought from the mind of Adria. It is unique in the way it documents its work and in its raw avant-garde-ness. What I saw at Tabla was a collaborative effort; a community. And Tabla has through its unprecedented-on-these-shores outreach effort taken up the position as the nexus of that community. Floyd Cardoz is not dictating to the group; he is bringing the group together.

[Jason Perlow]

My understanding is much of the original Asian Fusion stuff was pioneered in France (this being a natural evolution of French influence on Vietnamese and Thai cuisine),  ...

there's a french influence on thai cuisine?

On all of southeast asia. Vietnam and Cambodia more than any of the others, but it exists in Thailand. The French were in Siam as early as the late 17th century, you can find quite a bit of French architecture in Thailand today.

re:

http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bangko...kokmapindex.htm

The French first arrived in Siam in 1665 when Jesuit missionaries reached Ayutthaya.  The Jesuits misinterpreted the friendliness of the king as a sign of interest in Catholicism.  Their reports stirred the imagination of the French King Louis XIV, who believed that the conversion of Siam to Christianity would facilitate to the expansion of French hegemony in Southeast Asia.  The French King soon wrote a personal letter to Narai, the King of Ayutthaya, which reached Siam in 1673 to the delight of the Ayutthaya court.

The French efforts were aided by a gifted Greek cabin boy named Phaulkon who arrived in Siam in 1678, ironically aboard a British vessel.  In just two years he managed to learn the Thai language and begin work as an interpreter for the British.  Not long afterward he had a falling-out with his employers and switched to the French side.  His frequent dealings with Narai had an effect on the King, who took an interest in the foreigner and promoted him to the high position of Phya Vijayendra (a title of nobility).

Phaulkon's pro-French position rubbed off on the King, who sent two ambassadors to Paris.  King Louis answered with a mission of his own in 1685.  As relations between the two countries grew closer, foreign trade began to slowly transform Bangkok from a sleepy swamp town into an important city.  Thai, French, and Chinese merchants all set up shop here.  Facilities for the French also came into being.

The Thai Chef chain that we have in Jersey bills itself as French/Thai fusion.

[Andy Lynes]

Even if there is an equally important New Indian cuisine movement going on in the UK, however, I fail to see how it takes anything away from the grand accomplishments of this group of chefs.

One of course does not detract from the other and I would not question the accomplishments or the abilities of the chefs. If I elaborate any further on this I will simply begin repeating myself so I will bow out for now and report back with the view from London's Indian chefs when and if I am able to do so.

[oakapple]

Surely it is within the critic's purview to say, "I was moved." This is what Fat Guy is saying. Anyone with a contrary point of view is welcome to write their own critique, but I see no reason to question why he said it unless they have contrary observations.

The name of the event was "New Indian Cooking in America." From the description, it seems that a good representative sample of prominent Indian chefs in the Americas was there. While such an event can only present only a sample, I don't think it was misrepresented.

Where we run into a slight difficulty is in the original post itself, which referred to Tabla as "one of the world's most important restaurants," referred to New Indian cooking (unqualified as to geography) as "one of the most significant movements in modern cuisine" with Tabla "at its nexus," and had various references to "Western" this & that, again without limitation to America only.

Since Steve wasn't claiming to have studied this movement anywhere outside of America, probably the post would be better if "in America" or "American" replaced those references that attribute a global or pan-Western influence to what happened at Tabla the other night. But these seem to me just technical corrections to the spirit of what he obviously meant, particularly when re-read in the context of his recent comments on authenticity.

In other words, the post may have had a bit of over-exuberance, but I don't see a fundamental problem with it.

Edited June 9, 2004 by oakapple (log)

[Jinmyo]

Regarding my comment that India currently lacks a restauarant culture, with its most significant cooking occuring in homes both aristocratic and common:

If I'm wrong, my apologies.

The point was made to me here by Suvir Saran, I believe, but I may have misconstrued and distorted in a completely unwarranted manner as is my habit and predisposition.

I certainly do not mean that India lacks restaurants nor to denigrate street food stalls etc etc but only that the restaurant culture of say Michelin starred restaurants and of haute cuisine does not exist (to my wackily loose grasp of things) in India.

_______

No Indian culinary traditions were harmed in the production of this post.

edit:

Perhaps I should amend "wackily loose grasp" to "dangerously loose grasp."

Edited June 10, 2004 by Jinmyo (log)

[mongo_jones]

this is what i suggested earlier. there is a huge restaurant culture in india (and growing as the middle-class gets more and more moneyed). however, it is coded differently at all levels. even many of the best restaurants in delhi--the magnificent bukhara, for example, are raucous places (it is a different story at its almost as good stable-mate dum-pukht, which in keeping with its awadhi nawabi theme has a more stately ambience). across the board however dress-codes are pretty much non-existent and only a few places are stuffy (usually the restaurants at the snobby oberoi).

Edited June 9, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

The question, though, is do these New Indian restaurants in the UK strive for something akin to a self-conscious movement, or are they just cooking what they cook? I'm asking that as a question.

That's a good question and one that I will try and get the answer to. My guess is that there is bound to be shared goals amongst Indian chefs cooking at the highest levels in London, but whether or not they refer to themselves as "New Indian" cooks or feel they are part of a movement, I don't know.

I would suggest that if you, as a vigorous observer of your national food scene, don't know the answer, then the question is in part already answered.

actually, that's not the case steve.

the high end indian restaurants in the uk are fighting two things; the generally inauthentic product sold as indian food in 99% of restaurants and the michelin grading system which isn't really geared to ethinic cuisines.

i think people who don't read the UK press or live in the UK also don't realise that we don't have a culture of eating out 3 or 4 times a week or so much of the intellectual thought about culinary movements that the US seems to have. i can't think of a single uk restaurant "movement" that would badge itself in any way, so please don't suggest that it doesn't exist just because andy doesn't have the answer.