China 46

[Hank]

I read the book "Turning the Tables" by Steven A. Shaw, and he said, "The best restaurant isn't the one with the highest Zagat rating, the most stars from the local paper, ot that cute celebrity chef. IT'S THE ONE YOU'RE A REGULAR."

Why would you want to become a regular when you have to start out eating mediocre dishes?

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I was very sorry to read the posts about some of you now being disappointed in this restaurant after having liked it so much. I definitely do not feel that way and have never had a bad meal here. Though we all taste food differently I cannot understand that anyone would call China 46 as serving mediocre food. I certainly hope that that does not influence the many who have always loved this restaurant to stay away. They need the business and are, IMHO trying very hard to please everyone.

Also, to say that Cecil and his wife are not nice enough was a shocker to me. They have always been the most pleasant and cordial of people. Yes, they are both a bit on the shy side but have always greeted us most warmly and never forget to say good night to us or anyone else when leaving. I only wish that some of the top tier restaurants in NYC would follow their example.

[pete ganz]

They need the business and are, IMHO trying very hard to please everyone.

Exactly, which is why I hope people don't judge them by the brunch. The brunch is good, but they don't even put out the good dim sum...you need to order it. And the real standout dishes are the ones off the specials and regular menu that are frequently mentioned on this thread. Traffic is always kind of light in there...I hope they stay in business.

[Fat Guy]

"The brunch is good, but they don't even put out the good dim sum...you need to order it."

Okay, but just to be clear: it's all included in the brunch. Quick China 46 brunch refresher course: there are several components to the brunch, including 1) the cold buffet of Shanghai-style appetizers, 2) the hot buffet of assorted dishes, 3) the soup, bun, shumai and dumpling station, 4) the printed brunch menu and 5) occasional items they send out of the kitchen especially to regulars.

I think the strategic mistake a lot of people make is focusing on number 2. This is surely the weakest part of the brunch. Which is not to say it's uniformly weak. There might be twelve or more dishes out at any give time, and of those three or four might be outstanding -- as in, as good as anything you'd get at C46 dinner. There are usually either whole crabs or salt-and-pepper shrimp (or both), there's usually at least one really good egg dish (like the one with the tiny fish, or the whole eggs with pork), etc. Yes, there are some Westernized stir-fried-brightly-colored-chicken-with-X dishes. Just don't eat them -- it's a buffet; nobody is making you. You just have to be smart, ask questions and focus on what's good. The other four categories of the brunch are always, in my experience, excellent.

And it's incredible that you can order all you want from the printed dim sum menu and it's all included in the price: two varieties of soup dumplings, two varieties of jaozu (sp?), various first-rate soups, vegetable dumplings and vegetable buns, scallion pancake with egg (fabulous!) and more. That alone would be worth twice the price of the brunch.

Go in, sit down, spend a few minutes with the printed menu before you eat anything. Order your first round of hot kitchen items. Then get some cold appetizers and do a survey of the hot buffet and cooking station so you can start planning what you'll eat later. After you've had your cold appetizers and your hot kitchen items, get stuff from the cooking station and choose selectively from the hot buffet. If you're a frequent customer, by this time some little snacks have probably also come out of the kitchen for you. Still hungry? Order some more soup dumplings or whatever.

The amazing thing to me about China 46 is not that it's so good, not that it's so cheap and not that Cecil and Mrs. Cecil are such great hosts. Rather, it's that so many of the items are the best of their kind. At most restaurants you never see a single item that's the best of its kind. At most of the best restaurants you see one or two items that are the best of their kind. At China 46, I'm constantly amazed by meals where four, five and six things I've had are the best I've had of their kind in the New York Metro area and sometimes anywhere (not that I've been to Shanghai).

So, I respectfully disagree with the brunch detractors. I don't think the quality has declined. I do think the hot buffet is better on days when there are more customers -- Cecil has said to me several times, "The more people who come, the more things we can cook!" But once you internalize the idea that the hot buffet is not the focal point of the brunch, you're going to do great.

[Jason Perlow]

That being said Steven, I haven't returned to China 46 in a few months because two of my friends who were regulars there -- who you have dined with as well, Andy and Lin, will no longer eat there because the quality has declined considerably and they felt the food got greasier. When we go to Dim Sum with them on Sunday now it is at Silver Pond in Fort Lee.

I definitely need to go back for brunch to see for myself, and have another dinner there for a serious reality check, but I take my Asian friends opinions very seriously when it comes to Chinese restaurants.

[Curlz]

I think there may be a bit of a communication issue in the mix here. When I've been there for brunch, nobody has ever said "Everything on the printed menu is included, so just let us know what you'd like to order." I've known because of eG. So if you hear from friends of friends that this place has a great brunch and you go and just end up eating from the hot buffet, it's possible you would never get a full brunch experience at C46, and might not see what the fuss is about.

Perhaps Cecil should rethink the way he shares this info with the customers. As someone mentioned upthread, there are great specials printed on a board when you walk in, but nothing at the tables. In this age of computers and cheap printers, it shouldn't be a major expense to put the info on the tables--and in the case of brunch, having staff reinforce what's included. I can't imagine how it would hurt to try it for a while.

[pete ganz]

I think there may be a bit of a communication issue in the mix here.  When I've been there for brunch, nobody has ever said "Everything on the printed menu is included, so just let us know what you'd like to order." 

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Definitely. The first couple of times we went for brunch, I saw that menu and did not order off of it. I only discovered that those items were included in the price because someone mentioned on this thread a few months ago. A daily printout of the specials would also be a big help....I always end up leaving the table to go look at them again.

[Hank]

First of all, the concept that someone might be an authority on the food of a country they or their family comes from is IMHO complete hogwash. We have friends who were born and raised in France and whose opinions I will no longer take on a bet. Their choice of French restaurants in NYC is scarey. We also have Chinese friends born in China who think that Sally Ling is the best Chinese restaurant anywhere. To me the food there is Chinese/American at best and it is not good at all. I could add to the list. As far as comparing the Silver Pond in Fort Lee to China 46 is again, IMHO comparing quantity to quality. Talk about grease, cold food, poorly made sauces and presentaton, YUCK. They are a block from our office and would I love to have an occasional lunch there if they were even half as good as China 46. I cannot believe that anyone has not gone back to a particular restaurant because their friends have an issue with it, especially after having loved it for so long a time. Truly unfair to the owners who spoke so highly of them.

Fat Guy. Great post. You certainly hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

[Jason Perlow]

First of all, the concept that someone might be an authority on the food of a country they or their family comes from is IMHO complete hogwash. We have friends who were born and raised in France and whose opinions I will no longer take on a bet. Their choice of French restaurants in NYC is scarey. We also have Chinese friends born in China who think that Sally Ling is the best Chinese restaurant anywhere.

Your friends, perhaps. My friends, no. These people I trust implicity when it comes to Chinese and Asian cuisine.

I certainly would like to be proven wrong on this matter, as China 46 is one of my favorite restaurants, and its one of the few on this site that I've lauded extreme praise on and staked my reputation on when reccomending it to people.

[Curlz]

I certainly would like to be proven wrong on this matter, as China 46 is one of my favorite restaurants, and its one of the few on this site that I've lauded extreme praise on and staked my reputation on.

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...which is exactly the reason that I was so shocked to read your post/comments!

[Fat Guy]

I think the Silver Pond dim sum brunch is awesome. The one time I went to Silver Pond other than brunch it was awful. This doesn't make me love or hate Silver Pond -- it's just a fact I file away so I know to go there for brunch not for other meals. Same with China 46. I don't care that some things are good and others are not; I just need to know what's good.

[Jason Perlow]

Silver Pond is a solid restaurant for Dim Sum. I hadn't gone there for at least a year because I became a regular at China 46 -- having returned there recently after such a long hiatus I can say they are serving top quality Dim Sum, better than they have in the past, and I think they may have changed chefs or brought in some new talent because they have quite a number of new items. The restaurant is also consistently packed on weekends with Chinese, Japanese and Korean customers and is not longing for business.

That being said, I'll probably go to C46 this weekend because I have a hankering for soup dumplings and those pan fried puffy things with the juicy pork insides, and jiaozi. Not to mention the soupy shrimp balls, although I think you have to give them advance notice for them now.

[slkinsey]

Having gone to C46's brunch any number of times, I guess I think it's okay. . . good, even. And a remarkable bargain. But having eaten regular meals at C46 any number of times as well, I can also say that I think brunch at C46 pales in comparison to dinner at C46, which is outstanding. For me, since I'm hitching a ride and devoting a fairly substantial chunk of time every time I go to C46, I've decided that it's really only worth it for the food if we go for dinner (which is not to say that brunch isn't often worth it for the company).

[M.X.Hassett]

Having gone to C46's brunch any number of times, I guess I think it's okay. . . good, even.  And a remarkable bargain.  But having eaten regular meals at C46 any number of times as well, I can also say that I think brunch at C46 pales in comparison to dinner at C46, which is outstanding.

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What he said

[Jason Perlow]

brunch at C46 pales in comparison to dinner at C46, which is outstanding.

In this I agree, although I also have not been there for dinner in a while. There is something to be said for having stuff made to order instead of getting it from a steam tray. Some of their best items are the seafood ones, which you don't get at the brunch.

[jo-mel]

Why would you want to become a regular when you have to start out eating mediocre dishes? 

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I guess you don't know much about Qing. He not only knows Chinese food more than most of us, but he also knows China46 quite well.

This is not said in criticism, but just to let you know there is more beyond Qing's statement.

[Hank]

I certainly do not wish this to become a tit-for-tat posting but the issue has absolutely nothing to do with my "friends, your friends". To stop going to a restaurant that you repeatedly told us you liked so much because your Chinese friends did not like it is just plain wrong. You turned me onto a few restaurants that I now frequent all the time (Bennies and China 46 just to mention 2) and that should tell you that I respect your judgement. So what I am saying to you and everyone else on this site is to not stop going to a restaurant just because a friend did not like it. Your personal tastes and opinions do count for something also, so please, continue recommending your likes and not those of your friends who we do not have a clue about. And yes, a brunch has nothing to do with a meal chosen from a menu. The comparisons are nothing short of weak and to be honest should not be made. One more point. Hasn't your associate at the NYTimes made recomendations, good or bad, that many of us have made a big fuss over and he gets paid a lot of money to make judgements. But again, his personal tastes. Not his friends.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Hank (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

That being said, I'll probably go to C46 this weekend because I have a hankering for soup dumplings and those pan fried puffy things with the juicy pork insides, and jiaozi. Not to mention the soupy shrimp balls, although I think you have to give them advance notice for them now.

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He did say he would try it again

[jwjojo]

I started going to China 46 purely from reading about it on this site. I have only gone for dinner. I have tried several of the dishes recommended here, with only partial success. I thought they were either good, or just okay. I have noticed that since I have been going, the quality has slipped. I find the food to be greasier as well, and the prep. not as delicate. Different chefs? I found what I enjoy eating and order it often. Lately, hit or miss. And yes, print those specials on paper and offer as part of the menu. It would be helpful.

[Rachel Perlow]

To stop going to a restaurant that you repeatedly told us you liked so much because your Chinese friends did not like it is just plain wrong. You turned me onto a few restaurants that I now frequent all the time (Bennies and China 46 just to mention 2) and that should tell you that I respect your judgement. So what I am saying to you and everyone else on this site is to not stop going to a restaurant just because a friend did not like it.

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I think there's a little confusion on this point. We mostly hadn't been there for brunch in a while because we usually go to dim sum with these friends. So if they won't go to a particular restaurant, it's hard to get there for brunch. Also, I've been working most Sundays for the past two months, so it's doubly hard to get there because when we are able to go we try to meet up with friends, who it's harder to see now because I'm working on Sundays, and so on.

That said, we had agreed with them that the hot buffet dishes had seemed to decline in quality. So, I thank Steven for the excellent reminder above (click) that you don't have to make this part the focus of your brunch experience at C46. I think we're going to make an effort to get there this Sunday, we'll just have to leave these particular friends out of the mix, perhpas some others will join us?

[Fat Guy]

Maybe I'm dense, but I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the relevance of the claim that dinner is better than brunch. It strikes me as a category error. You can order anything you want, any time -- a la carte is always available. You can go to China 46 on Sunday at noon and order the exact same seafood dishes you can order on Wednesday night at 7pm. The only difference is that, on Sunday at noon, you also have the brunch option. You can even order the brunch and any seafood dishes you want -- the brunch for one person only costs as much as one additional dish, and it covers all your soup dumplings, jaozu, and other stuff you'd have ordered anyway. It strikes me as odd to complain about more choice (and a great bargain) by interpreting it as less choice.

There also seem to be a few issues on the table here. There's the pure question of the decline of quality overall at China 46 (I disagree with the claim). There's the claim that the brunch has declined (I disagree) in quality but not the dinner (I agree). There's the claim that dinner has declined (I disagree). Then there are objections to the brunch based on poor brunch strategy (I've tried to offer some solutions).

And there are objections to the brunch based on the aesthetics of brunch. Here, I can see how some people would simply prefer ordering a la carte to a buffet. If you assign no value to the bargain and no value to the ability to sample a large and diverse selection of items, then of course you're going to be happier ordering a la carte. That's a choice for everyone to make; however the choice can be made at any meal sitting.

For me, the brunch selections are on target. The last time we had dinner at China 46 we ordered nine items and noted that seven of them would have been included in brunch: four from the printed dim sum menu, one from the cold buffet and two from the hot buffet. Only the two that would have come from the hot buffet could arguably be said to be at risk of being worse from the buffet than if cooked to order, but if you "game" the buffet you can get everything as it comes out from the kitchen -- they make small buffet portions and replenish frequently, so this is no challenge. The two items we ordered that wouldn't have been brunch items were good, but against that we weighed the fact that at brunch we'd have had access to 20 or so other items. Moreover, we'd have saved money -- not an insignificant amount especially if projected over, say, ten meals.

Just my two cents.

[markk]

I definitely need to go back for brunch to see for myself, and have another dinner there for a serious reality check

I certainly would like to be proven wrong on this matter, as China 46 is one of my favorite restaurants, and its one of the few on this site that I've lauded extreme praise on and staked my reputation on when reccomending it to people.

I think that several issues need to be considered here, especially in light of those raised over in "Fat Guy Lays it on the Table", namely that it is certain that the owners of C46 and their staff memebers read these forums, and that Jason is known to them, and notwithstanding, perhaps, how little can be done in a high-end French restaurant to alter the food at service-time once a known critic is sighted, there's every reason to believe that upon seeing Jason, the C46 kitchen will make a massive effort to serve him food that is not greasy, and addresses all of the complaints in this thread.

Therefore, in the interest of a fair review from the restaurant's original and most ardent supporter, I think it's necessary, and in fact essential, that Jason dine there in disguise, at this point, and that he of course not post the date of his visit in advance.

[Jason Perlow]

Markk, I think you are right, it would be virtually impossible for me or Steven to have a bad meal at C46.

Unfortunately, I'm not easily disguisable...

[markk]

As my grandmother would say, "Az di bubbe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde!" - nothing worthwile in life is ever easy. I'm sure that in the interest of research, there would be many Gulletteers, some of whom may even be in the Theater Arts, who'd be willing to get together with you a-la Ruth Reichl and plan, and get you into a disguise that even Rachel wouldn't recognize you in.

Let's see what kind of volunteers we get!

[markk]

Unfortunately, I'm not easily disguisable...

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Okay, I'll admit that's true.

Well, there are famous people you could be disguised as, and as long as you hummed a little "O Sole Mio" I think you'd probably pull it off, too,

but for the sake of this discussion, let's assume you are correct on that point.

The more important point, however, is

Markk, I think you are right, it would be virtually impossible for me or Steven to have a bad meal at C46.

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Well, you never know, do you? This would certainly test out a lot of the theories and arguments raging over in the Fat Guy Lays it On the Table thread. I think that you should go back. Of course, you can't be anonymous, but you could show up announced, and I hope that you do, because I know that you'll be honest about it.

Of course, if the food has indeed slipped badly and they pull it together when they see you come in and serve you a great meal, that'll be that. But if it has slipped and they can't, that would make for some very interesting reporting and discussion.

Edited October 2, 2005 by markk (log)

[Fat Guy]

I don't think I've ever announced my intention to come to China 46 for brunch. I just show up and eat. It's a buffet for crying out loud. They don't run back into the kitchen and refire every dish on the buffet when they see me. And the items from the printed brunch menu are mostly pre-prepped things like dumplings and buns. It's obvious to me when we're getting special treatment: Cecil usually sends us a couple of items from the kitchen that aren't going to other tables, and we tend to get very attentive and friendly service -- just like any regulars. This doesn't alter my opinion of the food -- it doesn't make the dishes on the buffet better or worse. We don't need disguises or cloak-and-dagger tactics here -- we just need a little common sense.