the most french-like bistrots in manhattan?

[baruch]

could be many or very few depending on one's criteria; for example, swing of the door (inward > french vs outward > american), more french terms on both menu & bill, the basic bistrot cuisine without the extra "frills", etc... a beginning list 'could' include (?):

UES: L'Absinthe, La Goulue, Orsay; Ferrier, Quartorze bis,

         La Tour, Bandol, Payard & Cafe Boulud, Jubilee

Midtownish E.: Montparnasse, D'Artagnan

                 W.: Marseille, Cafe Un Deux Trois, Seppi's

Pk Av So: Artisanal, Les Halles, Park Bistro, L'Acajou

Chelsea: Chelsea Bistro & Bar, La Lunchonette

UWS: Alouette, Jean-Luc, Ouest, Cafe Luxembourg

Downtownish: Raoul's, Provence, Balthazar/Pastis, Paradou,

                      Odeon, Jarnac, Chez Jacqueline, Le Gigot,

                       Le Jardin Bistro

E. Village: Jules, Resto Leon, Casimir

all comments & observations welcome.

as per Fat Guy: did lump bistros with brasseries + cafes, i.e. cafe luxembourg, which is more a bistro. strictly speaking, i'm referring to bistros, but for less confusion's sake, include both.

p.s. none of the above (i believe) serves a "real" frisee aux

     lardons salade, for example, as to bistrot criteria, etc.

[Wilfrid]

I don't know about "real", but I think Les Halles does a reasonable frisee salad.  L'Absinthe would top my list, although it is becoming a little less French each year.  I don't know anywhere else in New York you could get a dozen whelks from the raw bar.  Artisanal, for me, doesn't have a particularly French feel, although the bistro food is good.  Chelsea B&B also struck out badly on the food front - unrecognizable as French cooking; I would say the same of Capsouto Freres, even though it's run by two brothers from France.

What about Chez Jacqueline and Provence in the Village? By no means great restaurants, but passably French in style.  I would add Jarnac, also in the Village - the proprietor, though English, was raised in France; La Lunchonette in Chelsea (French couple run it); and, on a good day, the tiny Le Gigot.  Also Chez Josephine on West 42nd.  I am saying these are restaurants which to a degree remind me of eating in french bistros - not that they are necessarily among my favorites.

[Fat Guy]

Assuming we're lumping everything together into a bistro/brasserie/cafe category I've got to support Pastis and Balthazar as the brasseries most evocative of France. I'd go as far as to say they're more authentically French than most of the brasseries in France.

[baruch]

thx wilfred: have added your suggestions (note Provence was on orig list). agree re: Artisanal, no 'French' feel, but food  good; Chelsea Bistro, sadly downhill; Chez Jacqueline, also has a 'different' feel.

Fat Guy, as usual, right on re: lumping bistros - brasseries -cafes, & have added an update - thx!

i consider a "real" frizee aux lardons to be frizee (surprise!!) with a poached egg on top, real lardons, & the vinegrette dressing to also include some of the lardon grease.

[Bux]

In a more abstract fashion, I feel 11 Madison Park captures much of the real brasserie feel and it does it without ersatz French touches and accents. I seem to recall a good salade frissée there. I think Cafe Boulud makes the best one whether or not it suits your definition is another matter. Places like Balthazar and Pastis capture more of the look, but are a bit too self concsious about how they do it. Sometimes I feel they capture the sense of being in a movie in France.

It's a pity that a few of the places mentioned, rely more on being French than offering good food, although I like the ones I just mentioned.

[stefanyb]

No one mentioned L'Acajou, 19th betw 5-6.   Its Alsatian but the last time I looked that would qualify as French.

Its smoky, the food is hearty and the bar is appropriately dingy with a great wine selection.  It gets a neighborhood crowd that is loyal.

[Fat Guy]

As we learned from the great Plotnicki on another thread, the whole brasserie (which means brewery) concept is Alsatian.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Baruch-Hey what kind of a guy named Baruch eats lardons? You need to go to Lyon. The whole concept of bacon and vinegar in a salad has been perfected by the Lyonaisse in a way the Parisians will never be able to match.

As for NYC bistros, an obvious one that is missing from the list is Quatorze. I've had a mixed relationship with that restaurant over the years but recent visits have been good. They also allow BYO which is always a help. Another obvious one is the D'Artagnan restaurant in the East 40's.

For years, Park Bistro on Park Avenue South bet 28 & 29 street was by far the best bistro I knew of in NYC. The chef, Diot, could have been running a one star bistro in Paris. But he got fed up with the NYC lifestyle and moved out to La Jolla. I haven't been since he left. But over the years he cooked me some great meals.

Bux-I'm confused. Balthazar and Pastis are too self conscious? They are exact replicas of French brasseries starting from the old tilted mirrors and ending with the food they serve which is exactly what a place in France would serve. Would they be self conscious if they were in France?

[Fat Guy]

Did you ever notice that, while there is tons of French-Asian fusion cuisine out there, nobody ever calls a restaurant a "Chinese Bistro" or a "Japanese Brasserie"?

Plotnicki, have you ever wondered about the description "self conscious" in general. Strange that it's considered a bad thing. I mean, really, we sort of want people to be self-conscious. We certainly don't want them to be self-unconscious. That would be bad. But I digress. I don't know what Bux means by self-conscious -- I rarely know what he means -- but I think were I to point to an extreme example of McNally's self-consciousness it would be the tromp loeil nicotine stains on the Pastis ceiling. I think that would be considered overly self-conscious, even in France. But beyond that it's something you'd never have to fake in France, because in France you'd have real indelible nicotine stains on the ceiling within three minutes of opening. Wimpy American filtered cigarettes just can't put a proper nicotine stain on a ceiling. I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. Goodnight.

[jaybee]

Les Halles, Park Bistro, Balthazar, Mirabelle (86th/Col), Demarchalier, L'Acajou, Quatorze would make my list as evocative of a traditional French bistro.  I wonder what bistros in France (Paris) you would use as benchmarks to answer Baruch's question?  For traditional bistros, La Tour de Monthlery (Chez Denis), Le Petit Marguerey, Benoit, La Fontaine de Mars, Les Fontaines and Chez Pauline are a representative sample of the places I would use.  BTW, really good question.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve-Self aware and self concious are two different things. And so are self concious and pretentious. Maybe Bux was trying to say pretentious? I can't tell. But if your point about the nicotine stains is to say that he went too far, my response is that I don't pay attention to those types of details that closely. I mean once the place lived up to it's billing (an exact replication of a brasserie,) I didn't need to scour every inch of the place. And you know what, I never scoured every inch of La Coupole either.

Jaybee-Here are a few more. All highly recommended by the Plotnickster

A Souseyrac

Chardenoux

Chez Josephine (Chez Dumonet)

La Chameleon

Moulin a Vent (Chez Henri)

Chez l'Ami Jean

Cartet

This is making me hungry

[jaybee]

Here's a related question:  is there a bistro in New York that you would choose over your top choice in Paris if they were side by side?  Is there one you would rate as an equal.

[Fat Guy]

Well, the thing is, when you compare New York bistros to Paris bistros, you're comparing two different species. New York bistros are essentially small versions of the French brasseries of old. Many of the bistros in Paris today are serving exceptionally forward-thinking cuisine that has nothing to do with the standard New York bistro/brasserie/cafe menu. As one French chef put it to me, restaurants like La Cote Basque (higher-end than a bistro, I know, but it contributes to the point), Pierre au Tunnel (another species), and the standard bistros and brasseries don't really exist anymore in France in their pure forms. The brasseries in France, like La Coupole, are just as "self-conscious" as those here -- they are not originals, they are recreations owned and operated by restaurant conglomerates like Groupe Flo. And I think there is a sense in which the old-style French bistro/brasserie experience is better achieved in New York than in France -- for better or worse.

[smithi]

Pastis used to serve a great frisee salad.  You could taste the bacon grease and vinegar in the salad...the proportions were perfect.  Unfortunately, they took it off the menu and won't even prepare it as a special request.  Many people have recommended Les Halles' frisee as a good version.  I have yet to try it.

[jaybee]

Well, the thing is, when you compare New York bistros to Paris bistros, you're comparing two different species. New York bistros are essentially small versions of the French brasseries of old. Many of the bistros in Paris today are serving exceptionally forward-thinking cuisine that has nothing to do with the standard New York bistro/brasserie/cafe menu.

Excellent point.  I was thinking the same thing when I tried to answer Baruch's question.  That's why I used the term "traditional" bistro and asked which French places posters used as their benchmarks.  Any bistro that is created now and consciously refers to the "old" style in decor and menu is self-conscious. It is a reproduction, designed to evoke a specific feeling from bygone days. (The real, original, places such as Chez Denis are "authentic" and an endangered species. There are few, if any, like it in New York in terms of cuisine). But then isn't any place self-conscious if it is carefully designed to evoke a specific feeling?  Ilo's, for one example.

[Ruby]

Here's my list of most bistro-like restaurants in Manhattan/Brooklyn. My criteria is not the nicotine-stained mirrors on the wall but more like:

1) if I close my eyes, can I imagine I'm in Paris? Is the space warm and cozy with French music playing softly in the background?

2) Can I get standard dishes that I have come to love like Coq au Vin, Boeuf Bourguignon and mussels?

3) Do they serve a reasonably-priced red and white house wine?

4) Are most of the staff French-speaking or do I feel like I'm in Disneyland?

5) If the restaurant stops serving lunch after 2 or 2:30, it's a bistro. If it's open all day, it's considered a brasserie. When I was in France, this was one factor that I always found to be true - I couldn't get lunch to save my life after 2:30 in a bistro because the chef would start preparing dinner. The brasseries served all day with limited menus--I'd usually wind up with/get stuck with Croque Monsieur or Croque Madame in a brasserie. I got so sick of these 'ham & cheese' sandwiches because my spouse/friends in France couldn't get going for lunch until after 2.

With this said, here's my list. I have omitted many West Side standard bistros that have been around since the 40s/50s because even though they may look the part of a bistro, I consider the food so mediocre that I won't list them. Here's my bistro list in no particular order or superiority of one bistro over anotherr:

Jubilee, 347 E. 54 St.

Le Tableau, E. 5th St.

L'Absinthe, 227 E. 67 St.

Pastis, 9 9th Ave.

Balthazur, Spring St.

Cave Deville, 103 3rd Ave.

Cafe Un Deux Trois, 123 W. 44 St.

Quatorze, 323 E. 79 St.

Park Bistro, 414 Park Ave. So.

DeMarchelier, 50 E. 86 St.

L'Acajou, 53 W. 17

La Boullabaisse, 145 Atlantic Ave., Brooklyn

La Goulue, 746 Madison Ave.

Le Jardin Bistro, 25 Cleveland Place

Le Gigot, 18 Cornelia

Odeon, 145 W. Broadway

Resto Leon, 351 E. 12 St

Village, 62 W. 9th St.

Le Singe Vert, 160 7th Ave.

Le Jardin Bistro, 25 Cleveland Place (near Spring St.)

[Lesley C]

The two things New York bistro/brasseries lack are the dogs under the tables and a couple of charming crusty French men at the bar. Pastis was full of Sex and the City types when I was there and the bartender didn't even know what a Vittel/menthe was. Tsk tsk.  And the nicotine stains have nothing to do with cigarettes. It's all about age. You can put up old tiles but Pastis is still only two years old. I actually found the whole Balthazar/Pastis thing a little weird and over the top. It is a lot like a movie set, but the cast of characters is all wrong. You can put up French signs and have a French person leave a message on the answering machine but when everyone around you is speaking English, it just doesn’t feel like a bistro.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve-A few corrections. The brasseries in France owned by Group Flo are not recreations. They are the actual bistros which have been purchased by Group Flo. Aside from some cleaning and minor renovations, Group Flo hasn't touched any of them and they remain in their original state. Of course the exception to this is a place like Brasserie Flo in Nice which they converted from Restaurant Maximin into a brasserie. But what Group Flo has done is to homoginize brasserie cooking and at each place they basically serve the same thing (this wasn't true for Bofinger the last time I looked or some reason. Maybe because it was a more expensive brasserie than the others.) But dishes like the Curried Lamb Stew they serve at La Coupole are prepared in a common kitchen, trucked to La Coupole and finished there.

But I think the main reason we don't have bistros that compete with the ones in Paris is that at the heart of bistro cuisine are ingredients that taste "French." It's the same reason that Bistecca Fiorentina tastes better in Tuscany. A Fiorentina really means Chianina beef which has a certain flavor. And if it isn't Chianina it is some other type of Tuscan beef that also taste indiginous. The French propensity for gourmet quality ingredients that express their terroir has a much bigger impact on flavor than people realize.

[Jinmyo]

I am curious about the spelling of "bistrot" in the title of this thread, which I cannot remember encountering before.

[Ruby]

I am curious about the spelling of "bistrot" in the title of this thread, which I cannot remember encountering before.

http://www.yahooligans.com/referen....00.html

[Message edited by eGullet Staff per Fair Use Policy]

[Fat Guy]

Ruby, let's provide a link rather than posting the full text (unless you have permission form American Heritage). Thanks!

My understanding is that bistrot is the old-style French usage, which has now mostly been supplanted by bistro. But both are certainly correct, in my opinion.

[baruch]

WOW! who says egullet members are not passionate??? thx to everyone who has taken the time to respond, so far. a few comments, if i may: bux - this is not "my" frizee recipe, but the standard "french". 11 park a little too fancy to qualify as a "bistrot", but food is excellent. your description of balthazar & pastis as movie sets is a very interesting observation & one i concur with. being self-conscious or pretentious is also in the "eye of the beholder", but the 2 seem to fit the definition. ambiance can be just as important as the food. thx again for your insightful comments. stefanyb - thx, will try L'Acajou; plotski - love d'Artagnan, but no bar to speak of unfortunately. Quartorze WAS on orig list, park bistro needs some mouth-to-mouth, & we did not have an opportunity in  Lyon to try one of the bouchons: the 2 hrs we allotted for a wonderful lunch was interrupted by the 2 hrs it took to return our rented car @the train station :) i think bux is saying that balthazar/pastis are trying too hard & therefore may capture the look, but that is a far cry from the "FEEL", n'est ce pas? as for baruch, u're rt -whats a nice jewish boy doing in a place like this :)

jaybee - merci!! fyi: recently returned to chez pauline & sadly not the same quality as i remembered. your others bring back great memories & too many calories. love your Q re: NYC vs Paris, etc ... i don't think u could recreate the whole deal @ La Tour de Monthlery which, for me, is the ultimate bistro. hope it never changes, but know it will once Denise goes to that great bistro in the sky with the rest of the characters you always find @the tiny bar. would also add: chez georges 2e, L'Ami Louis 3e, Bras. Lipp, Chez Paul, La Regalade 14e.

ruby, ruby - excellent observations & criteria!!!! + an excellent list. lesley c - another great comment that goes to the heart of the matter! thx. sorry steve p - but true, grp flo's purchases are of the original, but the old individuality has been destroyed - read adam gopnick's chapt on bras. balzar.

again, thx to everyone & without being too presumptious, & this is not a advertisement, but one of the few places here that seem to capture the mood, feel, ambience, whatever, seems to be Quartorze bis. i know - not owned by french, very few, if any french speaking employees, but somehow does seem to capture the "bistro" feel. some others do come close, but for various reasons seem to fall short whether from trying too hard or by serving onglet with turnips, etc... a bistro should be one where one can go to easily, have a glass of red or white or a pastis @ a relatively small intimate bar, move to your/a table when ready, & expect to see hearty well-prepared classics with specials that are either what is in season or where the chef can experiment to his heart's desire!!

[Wilfrid]

A couple of people mentioned L'Acajou.  I like the place less than I used to, having had some pretty average food on the last couple of visits, and once being refused a table in the restaurant section because I was single (and it was not full, and if it thinks it's more than a casual restaurant it needs to look in the mirror).

But it's worth looking out for the months when they serve a regional French menu.  The cooking is certainly not stupendous, but the choice of dishes, for the menus I have eaten at least, has been authentic, the food competently prepared, and the regional wine selections interesting and good value.

[Bux]

From what I've seen and been told, bistro is the hipper form these days in France. Both are in current use. One Frenchman told me that he thought bistrot was like "ye olde shoppe." I think that's an exaggeration and I wonder if the Academy approves of bistro.

Fat Guy: Balthazar and Pastis are too self conscious? They are exact replicas

Indeed. Exact replicas, while of course real brasseries are originals. As I mentioned, for me, 11 Madison Park is more reminiscent of a good upscale brasserie, although it's not so French. Then again real brasseries in France never thought of themselves as particularly French anyway.

Fat Guy: Would they be self conscious if they were in France?

Yes. I have been in restaurants in France that were so self conscious they looked as if they belonged in New York. They were so self conscious they were always looking in the mirror.

Out of order:

Fat Guy: the food they serve which is exactly what a place in France would serve.

Hamburgers? Which they do serve, but the food is good, and so is the atmosphere, but it's a stage set.

Lesley C: I actually found the whole Balthazar/Pastis thing a little weird and over the top. It is a lot like a movie set, but the cast of characters is all wrong.

Lesley, I find the wrong cast of characters to be one of their saving graces.

Fat Guy: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

And I see that it's not even one o'clock in the morning.

[Jinmyo]

Thanks as always, Ruby and Bux.