Say that again?

[balmagowry]

well, gosh, if we want to be really pedantic, 'begs the question' doesn't technically mean what it is being used for in this thread.  I mean, it has evolved into this use, but only in the past 50-100 years.  It actually means just the opposite of this use.

Er, no - there I must disagree. I at any rate have been using it in its 16th-century sense, which so far as I know remains unchanged today. "Begging the question" is the technical term in logic for the fallacy of circular reasoning; it means arguing the conclusion as its own justification. If I ask, "why do you consider it correct to say 'bay-zil?'" and you reply "because I think it is correct," then you are begging the question; we already know you think it correct - you have not told me why. And WHY, broken record that I am, is the question, is what I really and truly want to know. We can disagree on the pronunciation; I don't care or expect to convert anyone, nor need anyone expect me to change the way I say it. But I do care about understanding how the change - which to me makes no sense whatsoever - came about. (What the hell, there may be a cool story there! and copy is copy, after all.)

The other ostensibly parallel instances which have been cited here - like "erb" vs "herb," or "skedyul" vs. "shedule" - all have some basis in philological evolution and tradition; to my mind thw "bay-zil" anomaly does not. Or more to the point, if it does, I'd really really really like to know what it is. I haven't yet found anyone who can enlighten me on this point.

As for the OED and the pedantic dictionary wars - hey, 'tweren't me what raised Merriam-Webster's ugly head! (Wow... I feel just like a little kid telling the teacher "NO FAIR! THEY STARTED IT!)

Anyway... trust me on "begging the question," or petitio principi, or rather don't: you could look it up.

[balmagowry]

Yes, and how should I be pronouncing "cumin"?

Cue-min. But somebody's gonna insist it's "Come In!"

(Great smiley!)

Yup - depends what effect you're looking to produce. Uh-oh... I feel a series of knock-knock jokes coming on. Somebody stop meeeeee..... Whew - thank you.

and is it herb, or erb.

How about oib.

As it happens, I can answer that one with authority, because my father's name is Oib. I mean Erb. I mean Herb. Then again, there are those in-laws who persisted in calling him Albert, or (Lower East Side accent) Elbert. I think that may be the answer: I'm going to start cooking with elberts - "elbs" for short.

[Pickles]

I say BAY-zil because everyone around me says it like that and I want to fit in and not get beaten up and have my lunch money stolen. Seriously...I don't say "BAH-zil" because I think it sounds stupid and pretentious coming from my mouth. But that's just me...don't whoop me!!

[balmagowry]

I say BAY-zil because everyone around me says it like that and I want to fit in and not get beaten up and have my lunch money stolen.    Seriously...I don't say "BAH-zil" because I think it sounds stupid and pretentious coming from my mouth.  But that's just me...don't whoop me!! 

OK, that's a start. Hey, it's a reason, anyway, if not an origin. Trade you an apple for half a cookie?

Isn't it funny, though, how habits become part of one. I say "ba-sil" (not "BAH-sil," but with the 'a' pronounced as in "back") instead of "BAY-sil" for exactly the converse reason: because that's how I had always heard it (and it never troubled me because it matches all the other Basils), and now also because I think "BAY-sil" sounds stupid and pretentious coming from my mouth.

Go figure.

[GG Mora]

My niece Amy, at the age of three, was constantly in tow with her grandmother and great aunt, sisters by the name of Sadie and Ethel, originally from Manhattan. They ate in restaurants at least twice daily. They worshipped the ground my niece walked on, took her into their arms and into their world whenever possible, and wanted her to have the best of everything. Forget kiddie menus.

I used to babysit her a whole lot. So one day I asked her what she wanted for dinner. "Flaming Yawn" was the only thing she'd have. I was about 13 years old and could not figure out what she was talking about. Flaming Yawn! Flaming Yawn! She trumpeted.

She was on the verge of tears until I finally convinced her that french toast would be an adequete replacement. When I told the story to her mother, she told me that it was the most expensive cut of beef on the menu.

My 12-year-old stepdaughter pronounces it "flam-MAY lon-YON" with such aplomb that it nearly sounds correct. And a few weeks ago, her 10-year old sister was asking if they could have some of that "DOE-chay duh LOW-so". She had to show me the jar before I realized she meant dulce de leche.

My favorite, though, comes from the sister of a childhood friend. That restaurant chain with the orange roof and turquoise accessories always came out of her mouth as "Ella FONT-saze".

[ruthcooks]

About my friend who called quiche "kwitchie"...

She pronounced basil "bah-ZEEL".

[Pickles]

About my friend who called quiche "kwitchie"...

She pronounced basil "bah-ZEEL".

Has anyone mentioned Julia Child always says "Or-e-GAH-no"? Just thought I'd toss that in. I like tossing or-REG-ano into lots of things anyway.

[ellencho]

I was once in an Italian supermarket waiting on line for some fresh pulled mozzarella. I was the only person there of non-Italian descent and I heard each and every woman ask for mootzarell, so being the wimp that I am, I ordered the same when it was my turn to order.

I've found that a lot of my Italian-American friends who live in predominantly Italian neighborhoods tend to pronounce certain words like, mozzarella as mootzarell, and ricotta as rigutt. Then, I have friends who are actually Italian, born and raised in Italy and they don't use those pronunciations at all. One of them said that it actually makes her ears bleed when she hears those Italian American pronunciations and she'd rather hear Americans pronounce Mozzarella as motzzarella than hear mootzarell.

I don't really mind any of the mozzarella pronunciations. As long as you're understood and get to walk away with a hunk of cheese it really shouldn't matter.

[maggiethecat]

Madonna! How could I have forgotten one of my absolute favourite food mispronunciations -- it's become the correct pronunciation in my family.

My Nonna-in-law always pronounced radishes reddishes, and yes, she kept the final a on mozzarella.

[balmagowry]

I've found that a lot of my Italian-American friends who live in predominantly Italian neighborhoods tend to pronounce certain words like, mozzarella as mootzarell, and ricotta as rigutt. Then, I have friends who are actually Italian, born and raised in Italy and they don't use those pronunciations at all. One of them said that it actually makes her ears bleed when she hears those Italian American pronunciations and she'd rather hear Americans pronounce Mozzarella as motzzarella than hear mootzarell.

Ah - thread convergence. We were discussing this recently over on the Italy forum - it's a holdover from strong regional dialects. I want to say "mootzarell'" is Sicilian, but suddenly I'm not sure; "mozzarella," however, is what used to be called "purest Tuscan."

[Eric_Malson]

And WHY, broken record that I am, is the question, is what I really and truly want to know. We can disagree on the pronunciation; I don't care or expect to convert anyone, nor need anyone expect me to change the way I say it. But I do care about understanding how the change - which to me makes no sense whatsoever - came about. (What the hell, there may be a cool story there! and copy is copy, after all.)

As for the OED and the pedantic dictionary wars - hey, 'tweren't me what raised Merriam-Webster's ugly head! (Wow... I feel just like a little kid telling the teacher "NO FAIR! THEY STARTED IT!)

You're asking a question that really has no answer. Language is not something set in stone, but dynamic and fluid. Changes can come about for any number of reasons. You might as well ask why any word is pronounced the way it is.

If Merriam-Webster is "notoriously unreliable", this is the very first I've heard about it. Unless something has changed in the last 20 years or so, M-W is the standard reference for the English language as it is used by Americans. The OED is the standard for a much smaller portion of the English-speaking world, and its ideas on pronounciation are pretty much irrelevant to English the way it is spoken in America. It sure is great on history of usage, though!

[slkinsey]

I've found that a lot of my Italian-American friends who live in predominantly Italian neighborhoods tend to pronounce certain words like, mozzarella as mootzarell, and ricotta as rigutt. Then, I have friends who are actually Italian, born and raised in Italy and they don't use those pronunciations at all. One of them said that it actually makes her ears bleed when she hears those Italian American pronunciations and she'd rather hear Americans pronounce Mozzarella as motzzarella than hear mootzarell.

This has to do with many things. Most of the Italian immigrants to America in originally came from the South. They also came during a time when local dialects were more commonly spoken in the home and around town than pure Italian. In fact, most of them probably didn't even speak much Italian (I still know some older people in small Italian towns who speak mostly dialect and have marginal Italian language skille).

Many of the Southern dialects and accents soften certain consonents. Thus, "s" often becomes "sh," "k" often becomes "g," "p" often becomes "b" and so forth.

Many Southern Italian dialects and accents also minimize the final unaccented syllable, and sometimes the unaccented initial syllable as well. Thus, "mozzarella" becomes something like "m'zzarell' " and "prosciutto" becomes something like "brosciut' " and coppacola becomes something like "gobbagol'."

You can imagine, then, what happened when a bunch of Italians, many of whom spoke different dialects, came to America and intermingled. The first generation born and raised in America generally had very little fluency in either Italian or dialect. What they had were the sounds of the words as spoken by their parents and/or grandparents and the parents/grandparents of their neighbors, etc. These Southern dialect-influenced, accented pronunciations became sort of "averaged" across the various dialects as immigrants from different Southern towns intermarried and became, to them, the "correct" way to pronounce various words.

Toss in a generation or two of English speaking Italian-Americans who speak little or no Italian and include only a few words of "Italian" in their vocabulary, and "m'zzarell' " is turned into "muzzarell," "gobbagol' " becomes "gabagool" and so on. Your Italian friend was correct. It's not Italian. It's Italian-American dialect. And Italian-American words are related to the Italian language around as much as Italian-American food is to Italian food -- which is to say that you can see the roots, but it's not close enough that it is recognizable as Italian.

[slkinsey]

"mozzarella," however, is what used to be called "purest Tuscan."

That's kind of hard to reconcile with the fact that mozzarella comes from Campania.

[devlin]

Flaming yawn. How fabulous is that?

Whenever I visit the Italian food store in Louisville (there's only one of any one particular anything in Louisville, excepting bad dance halls), I have to repeat myself and point to make myself understood. Not because they're Italian, they're not. But because they pronounce things like bresaola, for example, "bress-uh-oh'-la" with a really cool southern twang.... Actually maybe it's more lilt than twang. But then there's no word in southernese that can't be stretched into at least one more syllable than it's worth.

[i really have to proof these things before I hit send]

Edited April 4, 2004 by devlin (log)

[Mark Sommelier]

Back in my waitron days I heard a couple debate whether to have a glass of "pea-nut no-ear" or a "mer-lott".

Just last night I heard "Vogner" (viognier).

[mongo_jones]

Yes, and how should I be pronouncing "cumin"?

the correct way to say cumin is to say zeera, or jeera.

[slkinsey]

Back in my waitron days I heard a couple debate whether to have a glass of "pea-nut no-ear" or a "mer-lott".

Just last night I heard "Vogner" (viognier).

You sure they weren't making a musical suggestion?

[Bux]

I have a good friend who's been going to France for about as long as I have. Owns a home there where he spends most of his year and where he has little choice but to shop and socialize in French with the locals. He has a nose for wine, but not an ear for language and "pouilly" still comes out like "pooly."

[tommy]

He has a nose for wine, but not an ear for language and "pouilly" still comes out like "pooly."

i'm no linguist, but the other night i was at a restaurant, and a wine salesman was conducting a tasting for the managers at the next table. he explained many wines, including the pooly foozy. i tried listening in to see if he was kidding, but i don't think that was the case.

this, i think, smacks of what bux said upthread about knowing your product and your trade. not that i was offended by it, but really, the guy should try a little harder.

[cakewench]

Yes, I've actually done a good amount of reading on the 'begging the question' debate, in university and since that time, and stand by what I said before. I understand that other people will have different interpretations. Anyone with time to waste can Google 'begging the question' and all of those interpretations will pop up, via different language forums.

eek, for the good of all, I've just erased my blahblahblah post. This is not the place...

It's a great subject, though. The idea of what is 'proper' and what isn't.

I'm still saying 'cue-min', thank you very much.

[mnebergall]

Is the "s" in "basil" more correctly pronounced like an "s" or a "z."

[devlin]

Well, just to continue the argument, I'd say it should always be the soft "z" rather than a hard "s." Even when you're talking metabolism and thermometers. That said, there's the other basal, the adjectival form of "basic," and there you use the hard "s." On the other hand, I'm sure somebody might suggest otherwise.

[slkinsey]

Once at a gathething of the Kinsey family at my parent's house down in Houston, by brother opened the refrigerator and asked where they had bought the "chee-HU-a-HU-a" beer. At first, I thought it might be a beer from Hawaii, but it turned out to be a Mexican beer (Chihuahua).

One note of caution in re to funny mispronunciations: make sure the mispronouncer has a sense of humor before bringing it up. Back in my college days, I was out walking with the young woman with whom I lived at the time, and we passed a pet store where she remarked on the cute "dash-hounds" (in fact, dachshunds) I swear... if I were to call her up today and say nothing but the word "dash-hound" she would A) instantly know who it was, B) tell me to fuck off, and C) hang up.

[balmagowry]

You're asking a question that really has no answer.  Language is not something set in stone, but dynamic and fluid.  Changes can come about for any number of reasons.  You might as well ask why any word is pronounced the way it is.

Not really. Of course language and usage keep evolving. But it is very often possible to trace a particular element in their evolution to some definite event. There just might be some really interesting identifiable reason for this particular change, and that is what I keep hoping to find. Hell, it might even be apocryphal - that'd be OK too. Like, for instance... it is possible to explain the origin of the term "mugwump" based on its historical context; likewise the modern use of "shibboleth" to mean a test of inside knowledge. Closer to home, it is easy to explain why one would pronounce "shallot" as "sha-LOTT," even though when viewed out of context that appears to be a violation of normal standards of English pronunciation. OK, so THAT is the kind of explanation I keep hoping to find.

A girl can dream.

If Merriam-Webster is "notoriously unreliable", this is the very first I've heard about it.  Unless something has changed in the last 20 years or so, M-W is the standard reference for the English language as it is used by Americans.

Y'know, it's so long since I consulted it that at this moment I disremember whether it was the 2nd or 3rd edition that was so roundly censured by the language community - whichever one it was, though, a good deal of it made its way into the on-line version, which is why I tend to take it with many grains of salt.

The OED is the standard for a much smaller portion of the English-speaking world, and its ideas on pronounciation are pretty much irrelevant to English the way it is spoken in America.  It sure is great on history of usage, though!

It sure is - and that's exactly why I value it for Quixotic quests like this one, history of usage being EXACTLY what I'm trying to track down!

"mozzarella," however, is what used to be called "purest Tuscan."

That's kind of hard to reconcile with the fact that mozzarella comes from Campania.

:groan: Waaaah! That's why the word was in quotes! The cheese is from Campania; it is the undistorted pronunciation which is traditionally referred to as "purest Tuscan" (hence the old saying lingua romana in bocca toscana) - at least, hell, that's what they used to call it in the 19th century. What century are we in now? If it means losing all those quaint old locutions, I don't think I want to play in it any more. :sulk:

EDIT to add: Oops, got confused on that last bit about which reply was directed at whom - sorry - trust it isn't impossible to sort out.

Edited April 4, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[balmagowry]

Yes, I've actually done a good amount of reading on the 'begging the question' debate, in university and since that time, and stand by what I said before.  I understand that other people will have different interpretations. Anyone with time to waste can Google 'begging the question' and all of those interpretations will pop up, via different language forums.

eek, for the good of all, I've just erased my blahblahblah post.    This is not the place...

You're right, I guess it isn't the place. It's odd, though, because just for the hell of it I did google it this morning to see if it had changed its spots since I last studied it... and all the references I saw in a couple of pages' worth of hits were unanimous as to its history and interpretation in rhetoric. How does one resolve this? Now you've got me seriously curious, because I've heard a lot of people use "beg the question" when what they really mean is "ask the question" - and as with the inevitably controversial "Bay-zil" (sigh) I sure would like to get it nailed down.

I'm still saying 'cue-min', thank you very much. 

Yup, me too. And "cue-linary," as well. Sounds a little affected to me, sometimes, but I say it anyway, and devil take the hindmost.