Favorite places to get the [definitive] New York hot dog

[Holly Moore]

I'll be in New York this coming Monday thru Wednesday.  While dinners are spoken for, my lunch time quest is to find NYC's definitive hot dog, be if from an eatery, a cart, a stand, a truck, whatever.

So where do I find such a critter?

[robert brown]

Is the German guy with the cart near Rockefeller Center still around? I haven’t seen or heard about him in a loooooong time. Otherwise the dogs of the Papaya King at 86 and 3

have always been dependable. Do you say “one with” in NJ? You must. That’s how I always get them at the Papaya King.

(Edited by robert brown at 4:54 pm on Dec. 1, 2001)

[Ruby]

F&B at 269 West 23rd Street, near 8th Avenue, is my very favorite. They have regular hot dogs and different variations with sauces/toppings. There are only counters to sit at but they have wine and beer which is great with a dog. Personally, I dislike eating a hot dog from a street vendor as I hate franks that have been sitting in hot greasy water all day.

Also Hallo Berlin at 50th or 51st Street near 9th Avenue is very good - Bratwurst, etc.

[robert brown]

I recall the German guy made them on the spot, but I have a recollection he was a bratwurst/weisswurst kind of guy. Has anyone seen him lately? Did anyone see the ugly divorce story involving the Fenway Franks entrepreneur on 20/20 or one of the other magazine shows a few weeks ago? I hope the new Red Sox owners get a new hot dog manager.

[jhlurie]

One of these days Holly, you've got to to do a roundup of ballpark hotdogs.  At least in the local Northeast states.  But its not baseball season now... so...

I've never been a big fan of NY hotdogs in general, but the IDEA of finding the quintessential NY dog has a certain romanticism to it.  You could visit about a million different dirty water hotdogs carts, of course, and the best you could do is to make sure you looked for the right umbrella (seeing as how they usually advertise the brand of the dog).  Maybe you could try a place like Katz's Deli on the lower East side?  I remember eating there all the time as a kid and (at least in a 25 year old memory) the hot dogs were pretty darn good.

[jhlurie]

Again, I can't wholeheartedly recommend a 25-year old memory, but if you put any stock in citysearch.com they at least reveal that they serve 12,000 dogs a week.  That's gotta count for something.

http://newyork.citysearch.com/profile/7084968/

(Edited by Fat Guy at 8:27 am on Dec. 2, 2001)

[Fat Guy]

I would say that a comprehensive tasting of New York City hot dogs would require at a bare minimum a visit to Katz's (probably the best dog from the perspective of the quality of the sausage itself; also it is imperative that you try the knockwurst), Papaya King (the proper order is, verbatim: "Two well done light with and a papaya," and the proper condiment is mustard only), and the original Nathan's on Coney Island (not what it used to be, but unavoidable as a key hot dog destination as it is the most significant hot dog place not only in New York but in the world). To flesh out the list, you'd want to add F&B (not typical of New York dogs), Gray's Papaya (simply because it's so cheap, yet it's pretty much on par with Papaya King), and some street vendor examples (just to see how bad they are).

[jhlurie]

Steven... do you think that the 12,000 per week figure is accurate?   I didn't even think 12,000 bodies still passed through the doors of Katz's in a week, much-less ate hot dogs there.

By the way, Holly, if you poke around the lower East Side you should also aquire a barrel of authentic lower East side Sour pickles.  Unmatched anywhere else in the world...

[Fat Guy]

Jon: Katz's has very long hours seven days a week, and it's a huge place. Plenty of customers are eating two and three hot dogs, and others buy dozens to take home (note that the figure is 12,000 manufactured per week, which would include sales from the deli counter and mail-order sales). And of course some eat none. Then again, the CitySearch blurb also says the stuff is manufactured on the premises, while I thought it was made in Albany (I'm almost certain of that with respect to the corned beef, at least). So who knows?

[Bux]

The only German guy I know of with a sausage cart is Hallo Berlin and I've only seem him at Fifth and 54th. Does he have other carts? I'm not sure if the cart preceeded the restaurants, but I think it did. I once grabbed a quick dinner in his restaurant in the forties. An excellent buy, I suppose, although it is about the most charmless place in which I've eaten in NYC. A few stand up pizza by the slice places probably give it competition in that category. The sausages aren't bad though and I appreciate the crusty roll. I'm not a big fan of the frankfurter roll.

[robert brown]

Bux, that's the guy I was trying to place. I think it was his only cart. Thanks for solving the mystery of the missing wiener.

[John]

Regarding Katz's and the citysearch.com review that claims 12,000 hot dogs are produced weekly on the premises, let me say that it is NOT true! I spoke with a friendly employee at Katz's when I went earlier in the year and was told that their hot dogs are supplied to them by Marathon Enterprises in East Rutherford, N.J. They are produced under a private label arangement from a proprietary recipe. The same is true of Papaya King and Gray's Papaya. These dogs are all somewhat similar. Marathon is the maker of Sabrett, and also supplies the Windmill in N.J., although the quarter pound dogs for this place contain pork as well as beef. I spoke to someone recently from Marathon who confirmed that they supply these places. I was trying to buy some of the franks made for Papaya King, but was unsuccessfull because they are produced only for them. You can, however buy a 5lb bag at Papaya King, and at Katz's, you can buy as little as a lb to take home.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Holly-I thought about your post for a while but the definitive hot dog didn't come to me. In the old days, Nathan's was my favorite but I can't vouch for current quality. But it's December and the tradition in my house is to make Choucroute for x-mas. And the dogs that I like the best, by far, are the "Wieners" at Schaller & Weber. They are a German butcher on 2nd Avenue bet 85th & 86th Street (a block from Papaya King.) I'm not sure if you can get a cooked one there for lunch. But you can certainly take some back to Philly and throw 'em in some boiling water.

I'm not sure where they are made, although it wouldn't surprise me if they made them onsite. But what I like best about them is how packed they are. For some reason, they are filled in a way so that when they are boiled, they have just the right texture for me. Give them a try.

[jhlurie]

Holly, what ever happened on your NY trip?  Where'd you wind up visiting?  Did the Holland Tunnel toll booth folks let you into NY?  :)

[Holly Moore]

New York was great.  It's the first time in years that my visit to the "City" wasn't in and out the same day.  I sort of re-discovered New York City during my three day visit and plan on becoming a regular.

To the subject at hand.  Hot Dogs.  New York Hot Dogs.  Only hit four hot dog places this trip, one of those being a deli and another selling wurst not dogs.  My favorite dog came from Papaya King, with Katz's a close second.  I think Katz's might have done better, but I also had a pastrami sandwich in front of me, the most beautiful pastrami sandwich I've ever shared a table with, and I couldn't focus on the hot dog.

I also really liked Hallo Berlin, a wurst cart at 54th and 5th.  No hot dogs there, but I had a great grilled bratwurst.  They also have a nifty little contraption, that only the German mind could concieve, that with the pull of a lever slices a wurst into bitesize chunks.

The other dog came from Gray's Papaya.  Got the impression you get what you pay for.  Not bad for a 75 cent hot dog, but Papaya King kicked Gray's butt in both the hotdog and papaya drink categories.

In between hot dog stands we managed dinner at Daniel the first night and joined Bux and wife for an after theatre dinner at Balthazar.  Those places aren't bad either.

The Holland Tunnel was a breeze in both directions.

Note:  Finally got the New York Trip up on my website.  

[Jason Perlow]

Bux meets Holly? Whoa. Please share details. :)

[jhlurie]

That "Senda Salami To Your Boy in the Army" sign (said with the words "Sa-la-mi" and "Ahh-mee" rhyming, I'll bet) shown on Hollyeats.com's Katz's Deli review is hilarious!  That COULD have been there for the past 60 years... but I'll bet it's new...

(Edited by jhlurie at 9:05 pm on Dec. 17, 2001)

[Bux]

I haven't been in Katz's in a while, but I can recall that sign being there for a long time.

Jason: Bux meets Holly? Whoa. Please share details.

So that's who was with Carman. ;)

[Holly Moore]

My info is that  "send a salami" signage dates back to WWII days and that in some of the old films where the guy in the barracks gets a salami from his family or his "honey" it's a Katz's salami.

[Schrohe]

Katz's, Gray's, F&B...all awesome dogs.

I had a dog last week that surpassed my wildest expectations.  The only problem is that it is mail order and you have to cook it yourself.

The meat was most flavorful, butm best of all, the casing was perfect!  Just the right about of resiliency.

I got them from a place called Usingers, a Wisconsin-based German meat maker.  I have purchased Braunschweiger liver sausage there for years and then I tried the "Wieners".  Unreal.

If you go to the web site, don't get confused with all the offerings.  Make sure you try the wieners with natural casing.  I'm sure the frankfurters are good too, but I can only attest to the wieners (not the beef wieners, not the veal wieners, simple the wieners!).

The web site is www.usingers.com.

P.S. They also have great brats!

[Fat Guy]

Aren't those what they use at F&B for at least some of the dogs?

[Schrohe]

Wow!  I have no idea...  If so, it would explain why I liked F&B so much.

Also just tried Usingers mortadella: not as good as imported Italian, but pretty close for domestic stuff....

[Damian]

Just popped out to pick up lunch at Hallo Berlin, it was exactly where Holly said it would be, 54th and 5th.  Delicious little meal, I ordered a brat and a knockwurst, and it came with German potatoes, kraut, red cabbage, onions, and a crusty roll on the side.  Great winter fare.

[John]

I order from Usinger's all the time, and, in my opinion, they make the best franks in the world. Their all beef Angus Frank was the result of winning a nation wide taste test of all beef franks. The Olympic Comittee and the people from Certified Angus Beef were looking for the finest all beef frank in the nation and picked Usinger's. They had this company produce franks using their Certified Angus Beef to sell at the Olympic Games. The only problem is that this product is offered skinless. I prefer the natural casing, so I order the all beef (not certified angus) with natural casing. It is spiced and produced the same way, but without the Angus. They taste identical, but the Angus franks may be a little more tender and juicier. The franks are bigger (5 to a lb) with a harder hogs casing, while the wieners are smaller (8 to a lb) with a sheep's casing. I prefer the beef wieners. The regular wieners are beef and pork and have the tender sheep casing. Good; but I like the all beef better. F&B uses the beef/pork wiener and deep fries it. This is a quality dog, but I would like to have the all beef wiener w/casing slowly cooked on a griddle like Papaya King. This would be the best dog in the world. This is how I cook them at home.

Anyone try Crif Dogs yet? I saw one of his posts on another forum, and the way he described his dogs made me believe they were the same ones used by Rutt's Hut. I e-mailed him, and he finally replied and confirmed that he uses the same dogs (Thumann's for deep frying). If you ever had a dog from Rutt's Hut, you would have an idea what they are like. If not, I would reccomend you try one. Some people love them and won't eat anything else, while others think they are bland, and don't like them deep fried. They may be an acquired taste, but they are amazing. Just ask Holly. Rutt's Hutt/Crif Dogs and Usinger's /Papaya King; 2 different types of hot dog, but both exceptional in their own right.

[Holly Moore]

Way back when I ran the prepared foods section for one of the major Wisconsin supermarket chains.  Did all the buying for the delis which meant I bought a lot of Klemments and Ussinger's sausages.  Both are old time Milwaukee sausage companies.  Both produce some of the finest sausages in the United States.

Like John, I try to always keep some Usinger franks on hand.  Both the Black Angus and the all beef.  Also their fresh brats.  Also their liverwurst and braunswager.  I've been toying with the idea of starting up a hot dog truck and have set up a way to import Usingers to Philadelphia if I take the final step and order the truck.  Their dogs are that good.  I did a bunch of taste tests last year, and with 100 percent consensus, all chose Usingers.

Interesting fact.  According to the food service sales guy at Usingers, the hot dog joints in front of some of the Home Depots in the DC area serve Usinger franks.