Wine Blog

hathor · September 8, 2004

What does the grape taste like? Is it thick skinned, like a concord with all the extra sweetness concentrated around the skin?

I soooo bad want to touch and smell!!

Carolyn Tillie · September 8, 2004

What does the grape taste like? Is it thick skinned, like a concord with all the extra sweetness concentrated around the skin?
I soooo bad want to touch and smell!!
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Not too surprisingly, it DOES taste somewhat like a Concord. Truthfully the varietals don't taste too much like the wine they make -- meaning, if you tasted a Merlot grape next to a Cabernet grape, all you would taste is *grape* and not those qualities within the varietal. The exception (I believe, but have not experienced) is the Muscat grape, which apparently has that orange hint to it.

The juice itself, however is a slightly different experience. I think if the Welch's Grapejuice company wanted to do something really exceptional, it would bottle Pinot Noir juice. While I have not tasted it, I know that Navarro Winery sells their Gewürztraminer and Pinot juice, unfermented. Might be worth a try!

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! I'm going to be showing you some amazing things in the next few days. This will become a very busy thread throughout the next month!

KatieLoeb · September 8, 2004

Not too surprisingly, it DOES taste somewhat like a Concord. Truthfully the varietals don't taste too much like the wine they make -- meaning, if you tasted a Merlot grape next to a Cabernet grape, all you would taste is *grape* and not those qualities within the varietal. The exception (I believe, but have not experienced) is the Muscat grape, which apparently has that orange hint to it.
The juice itself, however is a slightly different experience. I think if the Welch's Grapejuice company wanted to do something really exceptional, it would bottle Pinot Noir juice. While I have not tasted it, I know that Navarro Winery sells their Gewürztraminer and Pinot juice, unfermented. Might be worth a try!
Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! I'm going to be showing you some amazing things in the next few days. This will become a very busy thread throughout the next month!
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I always recommend the Navarro juices as a non-alcoholic alternative for folks that can't or don't drink. Great to tide the pregnant ladies through thier pregnancies and allows tee-totaling guests to still toast and participate in celebratory meals.

samgiovese · September 9, 2004

Carolyn:

Re: the taste of the grapes from the PV vine, when Mer & I tasted it, I thought the sweetness was in the center fruit flesh...in fact, I think I commented on the brix. The skin didn't seem extraordinarily thick to me; in fact, it "popped" in my mouth when I bit down. I got rid of the seeds, and continued to chew on the skin, until the tannins became quite evident, and then I spit it out!

Thanks for the experience...it was memorable. Just thought I'd give my feedback.

Sam

Carolyn Tillie · September 9, 2004

I need to try and describe what is going on the valley right now. It is a palpable energy that exists when one awakes in the morning. My drive to work is a little over 25 miles, up the Silverado Trail. On that drive, I pass through no less than seven different sub-appelations: Oak Knoll, Yountville, Stags Leap, Oakville, Rutherford, St. Helena, and then Howell Mountain. I probably drive pass several dozen wineries and acres and acres of vineyards.

To ensure the grapes reach their respetive wineries relatively unharmed, the pickers will start their work as early as 2:00 a.m. Tourists often express their surprise when they don't see field workers at 3:00 in the afternoon until it is explained that grapes picked under the heat of the sun can start to ferment under their own weight. There are very elaborate machines that can be driven through the narrow passageway between vines which suspend a row of lights over the neighboring four rows. While the light structure travels down the center row, the surround four rows have workers with bins frantically picking the grapes during the cool of the night.

As I drive to work in the morning, the workers are still there, but work is definitely slowing down -- as most is finished before the heat of the noon day sun sets in. During my drive the past few days, the Trail has been busy with trucks hauling grapes and workers from vineyard to winery. The fields has been frenetic with activity. On my way up this morning, I took this shot at the vineyards next to Robert Sinskey winery because it was close to the roadway and I could get a closer view for you:

We here at Ladera are expecting our first load of grapes to arrive from our Lone Canyon Vineyard (down in Yountville) any minute...

winesonoma · September 10, 2004

We picked, crushed and pressed our white today. About 3 barrels. I have pics. On monday we bottle last years white so when I get Back after the weekend I'll have pics of that and will start my own thread. Seems very sticky in here. Time for a shower. More to come. Bruce

Toliver · September 10, 2004

I had a Homer Simpson "DOH!" moment when it finally dawned on me that the end-result-wine you've documented in this blog won't even be ready to drink for quite a while.

How long is the aging/barrel process that turns the grape juice into wine? What would be the minimum time needed in order to get wine?

I think it would be very cool to be able to buy a bottle of wine that came from the grapes featured in this blog! "Merlot de eGullet" :smile:

Carolyn Tillie · September 15, 2004

I have been remiss in my duties... We are picking and sorting and crushing and all is a-buzz. I've been coming in during the wee hours which is why this grape looks like it was photographed in the middle of the night.

In answer to your question, Toliver, we are talking at least three years before the grapes that are being grown today will be drinkable -- 24 months in a barrel and then another year in a bottle before the wine gets released. That is, IF what I have been blogging (a Petit Verdot, BTW, not a Merlot) makes it into a bottle.

Last year, the Stotesberys were so happy with the quality of the Cabernet, that little or no Petit Verdot was ultimately used in a wine. It might be the case with these little grapes that you have been witnessing. It has been suggested that I continue blogging, but that next year I document the growth of a Cabernet, which we KNOW will be bottled!

It is projected that we'll be picking these in the next week or two -- I've been waiting to show you the rest of the process until these little babies are off their vine!

bleudauvergne · September 15, 2004

Your coverage of this has inspired me to plant some grape seeds in a pot and put them on my windowsill...

In the meantime I eagerly await you next installment!

jbonne · September 15, 2004

Last year, the Stotesberys were so happy with the quality of the Cabernet, that little or no Petit Verdot was ultimately used in a wine.

out of curiosity, what happens in years when the PV isn't needed? does it go into other folks' Bordeaux blends? bulked out? have they ever contemplated a single-varietal bottling? private stash?

"pay no attention to that barrel behind the curtain ... " :wink:

Carolyn Tillie · September 15, 2004

out of curiosity, what happens in years when the PV isn't needed? does it go into other folks' Bordeaux blends? bulked out? have they ever contemplated a single-varietal bottling? private stash?
"pay no attention to that barrel behind the curtain ... "
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Actually you are quite close... For 2002, we were growing both a Petit Verdot and Malbec to be used in blending. Because the 02 Cabernet Sauvignons were so spectacular, very little Petit Verdot, if any (I don't exactly recall) blending was necessary. However, the Malbec was SO DAMNED FINE on its own, that the decision was made to bottle it as its own varietal. I am thrilled, actually -- Howell Mountain is getting a reputation for really oppulent, rich, spicy fruit and a Malbec from the Mountain tastes really, really nummy (trust me). I'm very excited about the prospects of that wine.

For Petit Verdot, however, it is not a grape that lends itself well to single varietal bottling. Generally, it is grown because it is an inky grape that lends color to Cabernet Sauvignons, and very little actual flavor. Granted, there are some doing it (notably, Delia Viader, who's winery is on the way up Howell Mountain but not considered mountain fruit due to low elevation, has her version entitled "V" which you can read about here. Her 2001 is not 100% PV, but a blend heavy on PV: 58% Petit Verdot •34% Cabernet Sauvignon • 8% Cabernet Franc).

In our case, if we don't use it, we bulk it out.

docsconz · September 16, 2004

Beautiful grapes. This is what it is all about. I agree that it would be interesting to have an eGullet tasting of these wines if and when they come out. I truly hope that these grapes will be used in the final blend. Wine is always more interesting and tasty when there is an emotional investment in them.

jbonne · September 16, 2004

For Petit Verdot, however, it is not a grape that lends itself well to single varietal bottling.

quite. there's been a couple efforts up here in WA, which are interesting -- but all structure and color, and not much fun to drink. i think i enjoyed it best when i poured it into a glass of something else.

that malbec sounds darn tasty, though.

Toliver · September 16, 2004

Carolyn,

Thanks for your answers...this is a very enlightening discussion.

Can you explain a bit more about how a Cabernet (or every other type of wine) is created? I never have given this a thought before and just assumed one kind of grape would make one kind of wine. Period. I didn't realize that blends are use in the creation of a wine.

So what make a Merlot a Merlot, for example? Is it a certain percentage of this grape and a little bit of that kind?

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am clueless.

Carolyn Tillie · September 16, 2004

Carolyn,
Thanks for your answers...this is a very enlightening discussion.
Can you explain a bit more about how a Cabernet (or every other type of wine) is created? I never have given this a thought before and just assumed one kind of grape would make one kind of wine. Period. I didn't realize that blends are use in the creation of a wine.
So what make a Merlot a Merlot, for example? Is it a certain percentage of this grape and a little bit of that kind?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am clueless.
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No worries! Not a lot of people understand the minute differences and they are rather complicated. Basically there is the 75% rule and the 85% rule.

A Cabernet, for example, can be called a Cabernet, if it is 75% Cabernet FROM THE SAME APPELLATION. We can add up to 25% other grape varietals if they are from the same appellation and still call it a Cabernet (and John Q Public might not realize it ISN'T a 100% Cabernet!). If other varietal grapes are used from OTHER appellations, than less only 15% or less can be used to still be able to call it by that grape's name.

For example, if I have 75% Howell Mountain Grapes and 25% Stag's Leap grapes (regardless of type), than the best I can call that wine is "Napa Valley." I can't use the sub-appellation of Howell Mountain. If I have 75% Napa grapes and 25% Sonoma grapes, I can't even call it a Napa wine.

This is why there is such a huge rise in blends, such as the ubiquitous Meritage. (White, by the way, is NOT pronounced Meri-taaaaahhhhge -- it is nothing other than the combination of the two words, Merit and Heritage, and is thus pronounced Meri-tidge -- and drive me NUTS when people try to make it sound like a European-style word!), Cuvee, or other winery-specific blends like Duckhorn's Paraduxx, Rabbit Ridge's Avventura, or Gundlach Bundschu's Bearitage (pronounced to rhyme with heritage)!

I hope this helps!

melkor · September 16, 2004

No worries! Not a lot of people understand the minute differences and they are rather complicated. Basically there is the 75% rule and the 85% rule.
A Cabernet, for example, can be called a Cabernet, if it is 75% Cabernet FROM THE SAME APPELLATION. We can add up to 25% other grape varietals if they are from the same appellation and still call it a Cabernet (and John Q Public might not realize it ISN'T a 100% Cabernet!). If other varietal grapes are used from OTHER appellations, than less only 15% or less can be used to still be able to call it by that grape's name.
For example, if I have 75% Howell Mountain Grapes and 25% Stag's Leap grapes (regardless of type), than the best I can call that wine is "Napa Valley." I can't use the sub-appellation of Howell Mountain. If I have 75% Napa grapes and 25% Sonoma grapes, I can't even call it a Napa wine.
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You've got things are mixed up in your explanation - your example is correct when you look at the rules regarding putting the appellation on the label, 85% minimum from the AVA (stags leap or howell mtn, etc), 75% minimum to use the county name (napa, sonoma, etc). If you list a vinyard name then it must be 95% fruit from that vineyard.

Toliver's question was what makes a Cabernet a cabernet or a Merlot a merlot - for that it's just 75% of the wine be made with the grape on the label.

Vintage dates require that 95% of that wine is from the vintage listed on the label.

Carolyn Tillie · September 16, 2004

You've got things are mixed up in your explanation - your example is correct when you look at the rules regarding putting the appellation on the label, 85% minimum from the AVA (stags leap or howell mtn, etc), 75% minimum to use the county name (napa, sonoma, etc). If you list a vinyard name then it must be 95% fruit from that vineyard.
Toliver's question was what makes a Cabernet a cabernet or a Merlot a merlot - for that it's just 75% of the wine be made with the grape on the label.
Vintage dates require that 95% of that wine is from the vintage listed on the label.
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Thank you, Dave - yep, absolutely correct. These things DO get confusing about what is allowed and there are different laws for different percentages or different reasons (like the vintage having to be 95% as Melkor said). The mere fact that there is a different between a 75% rule and an 85% rule should let you know truly confusing it can all get.

ludja · September 16, 2004

Thanks for the info Carolyn and Melkor; I only knew about the "75% rule" for the wine varietal naming.

So just to make sure I have one of the points straight, I'd like to clarify an example:

Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon from xyz vineyard

From what I understand, 95% of the grapes come from xyz vineyard BUT, they can be a mixture of grapes, with a minimum of 75% cabernet sauvignon.

Edited September 16, 2004 by ludja (log)

melkor · September 16, 2004

Thanks for the info Carolyn and Melkor; I only knew about the "75% rule" for the wine varietal naming.
So just to make sure I have one of the points straight, I'd like to clarify an example:
Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon from xyz vineyard
From what I understand, 95% of the grapes come from xyz vineyard BUT, they can be a mixture of grapes, with a minimum of 75% cabernet sauvignon.
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Yep.

Rebel Rose · September 16, 2004

. . . is NOT pronounced Meri-taaaaahhhhge

I know. But I'm sure you agree that the brave souls who make a stab at it in good faith deserve our patience. It's the ones who swirl the wine vigorously, then hold it above their heads while expounding on 'Anyother Winery' and their faaahbulous meritaaaahhhge that simply can't be surpassed by any other wine . . . :rolleyes:

Carolyn Tillie · September 16, 2004

I know. But I'm sure you agree that the brave souls who make a stab at it in good faith deserve our patience. It's the ones who swirl the wine vigorously, then hold it above their heads while expounding on 'Anyother Winery' and their faaahbulous meritaaaahhhge that simply can't be surpassed by any other wine . . .
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Amen, sister.

Toliver · September 16, 2004

Okay, I think I follow what you've said.

My next question is:

Is this percentage mixing all done on the honor system? Or is there some group that oversees wines and what they can be called? What's to prevent the less scrupulous from lying about the grapes or the percentages or where they're from?

melkor · September 16, 2004

Okay, I think I follow what you've said.
My next question is:
Is this percentage mixing all done on the honor system? Or is there some group that oversees wines and what they can be called? What's to prevent the less scrupulous from lying about the grapes or the percentages or where they're from?
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It's the honor system for the most part. A fair number of older vineyards are planted with multiple grapes next to eachother and they are harvested together, so the best guess that can be made is to figure out roughly what vines are in the vineyard and estimate what the %'s will be in the wine. Other blends are done in the winery before fermentation, grapes come in and are blended either as must (after being crushed) or as whole clusters (before being crushed), the %'s are done based on weight with the grape solids included. Other times the grapes are vinified seperately and blended after the wine has spent some time in barrel, so the percentages are figured without the grape solids.

I'm not sure if there is a rule that says the 75% must be calculated one way or the other, anyone know?

Rebel Rose · September 17, 2004

It's generally calculated in terms of gallons of finished wine, but in the case where varietals are mixed at the crusher, then the amount of tonnage can be used. And although it is pretty much the honor system when applying for label approval, the Men in Black can descend upon any winery, at any time, and demand the wine books. The movement of every gallon has to be properly accounted for. Winemakers fill out this long, double-sided evil-looking form called the '702' -- it's a monthly gallonage report starting with last month's balance. Even wine lost during racking must be reported.

Here's a quick tour:

"Keep your copy on yor bonded wine premises for inspection by ATF officers."

"5. Produced by blending"

"6. Produced by amelioration"

"8. Bottled wine dumped to bulk"

"23. Used for testing"

"Section B, 11. Used for tasting"

"13. Removed for family use"

And they even have columns for vermouth and hard cider. . .

Carolyn Tillie · September 18, 2004

I'm surprised to hear of blends being done before fermentation. The two wineries I work at -- and most of the ones I have inquired about -- pick, ferment, and barrel their blends separately and then do their blending right before bottling. Perhaps this practice is done by the larger wineries that are producing tens-of-thousands of cases, versus the smaller production wineries with which I am more familiar?

In the case of Ladera, we not only don't blend varietals before fermentation, we actually keep the blocks picked of the same appellation and varietal grapes separate in barrels up until bottling. In our case, a single lot (or block) might add a different characteristic that is not desired in the ultimate bottling. If any of you visit me up here, you can read on the barrels this type of code: CS02195HM which translates into: CS= Cabernet Sauvignon, 02 = the year, 2002, 195 = Block #195 (a section of the property with specific characteristics of terroir, elevation, and perhaps irrigation or other qualities), and lastly, HM = Howell Mountain (the appellation).

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