Espresso vs. Coffee

Java-Joe · January 23, 2004

Ok, seems like this is a hot topic today. I have 2 responses for you. These guys are very knowledgeble and I respect their opinions. Hope it helps.

Answer No. 1) "Check and see if all the Baristas are members of the Barista Guild!! (Wait a month or two and then check that one)

Basically I would agree that excellent and well prepared (that means all the elements come together with a well trained, passionate craftsperson Barista at the helm) espresso is never bitter. It does NOT make your mouth pucker and make you go EEEWWWWW!!

One of our Baristas made a 6oz cappuccino double today and I gave it free to a regular while they were drinking their 20oz double mocha with vanilla sweet tooth drink. I told her just to try it. She did and said WOW! this is very good. What is it? I told her a straight cappucino and she could not believe it. She said but it is so sweet and tasty and not bitter. Then she proceeded to tell me that she did not like the taste of coffee only the sweetness.

And then she drank the rest of the cappuccino and did not finish her mocha.

So no espresso shold NEVER be all bitter and puckery. That is most likely an overextracted (too course a grind with too much water flowing over it too quickly) shot.

It is probably NOT the roast profile although that is a huge effect. Usually it is the Barista not knowing what to do right and making a bad shot. puling excellent shots is NOT easy and automatic. it takes hard work, dedication and craftsmanship."

Answer No 2) "he's trying to decide "do i dislike espresso or is this espresso just crap." I guess you could try some of the following:

1 - watch to see if the espresso is ground per shot or pre-ground (the latter is a bad sign),

2 - watch to see if the portafilter is thoroughly cleaned,

3 - time the shot (anything less than 22 seconds is a bad sign as is anything over 30 -- though there are exceptions),

4 - look for portafilters being left in the machine (if the portafilters are out of the group, it's a very bad sign),

5 - evaluate the shot (it should be thick and syrupy, with a classic "red-brown" crema that completely covers the surface and which should support sugar briefly),

6 - watch the barista tamp the espresso. if they're using the "tamper" that is attached to the grinder - bad. if they're using a little plastic tamper - bad. if they're not tamping - bad.

7 - look at the machine. is it clean? does it seem well-maintained?

8 - ask the barista about the beans. who is their roaster? what style of blend and roast is it? what kind of beans are in it? when was it roasted?

9 - order a double espresso ristretto. see what they say. if they say "what's that?" it's a bad sign.

10 - ask the barista how large a double is in ounces. more than 3 ounces is bad.

11 - ask the barista how hard they tamp. any clear answer in pounds is a good sign.

12 - ask the barista how often they clean the portafilters. daily is the minimum.

When it comes right down to it, i personally think that good espresso should never taste "bitter" per se. there are, and should be, bitter flavour elements but they should never be out of balance against the sweet, the earthy, the nutty, the chocolate and the other flavour notes.

but coffee is all personal taste and i have friends with great palates who simply do not like espresso."

OK, those are the answers I got. Hope that helps!

Java-Joe

slkinsey · January 24, 2004

While I don't necessarily disagree with these points it strikes me that the consistently best espresso, by far, I have had has been in Italy. The places there 1. tend to pre-grind the coffee, 6. use the tamper on the front of the grinder, and 11. could never tell you how hard they tamp.

Moopheus · January 24, 2004

I don't see how any body using a hand tamper could give you a very accurate report of how many pounds of pressure they gave the tamp.

Java-Joe · January 24, 2004

A barista, well-trained or newly trained should tell you that 30 lbs of pressure applied (by hand) is what they're supposed to do. That's the proper amount of pressure to apply. This can not be achieved by these "one size fits all" plastic tampers attached to the espresso grinder. A good barista needs to accurately tamp and polish that espresso so that the surface of the espresso is uniform. Won't happen unless it's a hand tamper.

The tools of the trade have made great strides in the U.S. One can now find tampers to fit each and every size of portafilter. A coffeehouse owner that really cares about the product being produced will know how to train a barista or will get them trained somehow. The SCAA (Specialty Coffee Assn. of America) has training courses for baristas. And there are some independent businesses, such as Bellissimo what produce a tremendous amount of material for training. The knowledge is out there to be gained. Lets hope the indies and chains use it and improve, improve, improve!

Pre-ground espresso, over a day old is considered STALE by those of us who simply want to produce a superior product. Pre-packaged ground espresso is not an option, except for the home user without a grinder.

On those espresso grinders there is a thing-a-ma-jig that the grounds pour into and dose out of. That ground espresso should never be more than 24 hours old. 4-6 hours is better. This affects the quality of the crema produced.

Please note that I'm not trying to be any kind of authourity, as I'm not a barista, but a member of the trade. I don't want to argue or debate anyone. I'd just like to contribute if I may.

Best regard,

Joe

Msk · January 26, 2004

Thanks everyone for all this information, I appreciate it greatly. I'm always in search of new tasty transmission mechanisms for my caffeine.

:biggrin:

Msk

malachi · February 11, 2004

Java-Joe's questions are spot on.

In response to some of the other questions...

Yes, a too-light roast will result in sour (astringent) espresso. If you get sour espresso, however, the most likely culprit is not the roast, but rather either the temperature or the extraction time.

Yes, Italians traditionally never tamped hard, used pre-ground coffee (and rarely if ever cleaned their machines). Just because the Italians invented espresso, however, does not mean their methods are optimal. Even some of the leading lights of Italian coffee are beginning to accept that the "scientific" approach in the US has resulted in improvements. If you talk to professional baristi the world over, you're going to find very few top ones who are not Italian who don't follow the magic rules regarding tamping, fresh coffee (and cleaning their machines).

The way a good barista can tell the pressure he or she tamps at is by practicing on a scale. Seriously. Along with weighing dosed, leveled coffee and checking levelness of tamp with levels, this is part of training.

There are probably more coffee shops that roast their own and serve good espresso, but don't assume that roasting in-house is a guarantee of good espresso (or that not roasting in-house means you'll get crap). It's far more worthwhile to check out the things noted above (portafilters in the group, freshly ground coffee, a real tamper - used professionally, clean portafilters, extraction time within the range, good crema).

I'd add a couple more... look at cup size. If the shop doesn't have any small cups, it's not a good sign. If a shop preheats the cup, it's a good sign. If a "small" cappuccino is 12oz, it's a bad sign.

But, at the end of the day, the test is in the taste. If you like it, it's good.

It makes me sad to think of all the people out there drinking Vente Vanilla Lattes, thinking they don't like espresso 'cause it's too strong. If only they could taste the real thing.

Moopheus · February 12, 2004

If a "small" cappuccino is 12oz, it's a bad sign.

You mean "tall". :rolleyes:

jgould · February 16, 2004

aware this question may be too naive or in the wrong thread; therefore, won't be offended if told so :cool:

what IS considered to be the best coffee beans to purchase to make either regular american-style coffee or expresso??

melkor · February 16, 2004

aware this question may be too naive or in the wrong thread; therefore, won't be offended if told so
what IS considered to be the best coffee beans to purchase to make either regular american-style coffee or expresso??

It's all a matter of personal preference. If you want a cup similar to what you get at a diner but of much higher quality - find yourself some columbian. My favorite for drip coffee is a 50/50 blend of Yemeni Mokha and Java. Some people really like Kona, but I don't find it very compelling. If you have a local roaster, buy a small amount of each coffee they offer and try them.

jgould · February 16, 2004

aware this question may be too naive or in the wrong thread; therefore, won't be offended if told so
what IS considered to be the best coffee beans to purchase to make either regular american-style coffee or expresso??
It's all a matter of personal preference. If you want a cup similar to what you get at a diner but of much higher quality - find yourself some columbian. My favorite for drip coffee is a 50/50 blend of Yemeni Mokha and Java. Some people really like Kona, but I don't find it very compelling. If you have a local roaster, buy a small amount of each coffee they offer and try them.

thx very much. i live bet fairway, citarella's, & zabar's in nyc (uws) so have many options re: sampling. i guess the main intent of the question is "which is considered the best"?? usual answer is Kona, but seems that it is very hard to find REAL kona???

what about illy??

melkor · February 16, 2004

aware this question may be too naive or in the wrong thread; therefore, won't be offended if told so
what IS considered to be the best coffee beans to purchase to make either regular american-style coffee or expresso??
It's all a matter of personal preference. If you want a cup similar to what you get at a diner but of much higher quality - find yourself some columbian. My favorite for drip coffee is a 50/50 blend of Yemeni Mokha and Java. Some people really like Kona, but I don't find it very compelling. If you have a local roaster, buy a small amount of each coffee they offer and try them.
thx very much. i live bet fairway, citarella's, & zabar's in nyc (uws) so have many options re: sampling. i guess the main intent of the question is "which is considered the best"?? usual answer is Kona, but seems that it is very hard to find REAL kona???
what about illy??

Kona is easy enough to find, several producers in Kona will ship directly to you. Illy makes reasonably good coffee also, but freshness is a concern. The best coffee your likely to find will be some reasonably high quality beans roasted 24-48 hours ago, it's hard to overstate how much of a difference freshness makes.

phaelon56 · February 16, 2004

aware this question may be too naive

In this forum there is no such thing as a question that's too naive. If a different thread is required we will start one.

Much of the espresso vs. coffee bean choice has to do with personal preference. I find that I like espresso blends made from Brazil, Indonesian and African beans as my favored choice for espresso but prefer staright varietals when consuming Americano's. Drip coffee is another story - some of the varietals that I really like as Americanos, I am less fond of when made as drip coffee.

I'll reemphasize the excellent point that was already made - the critical importance of freshness. It's hard enough to find REAL Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain, much less find the real thing that is truly freshroasted (i.e. was roasted within 24 - 48 hours of the time you get the coffee). I'll take fresh roasted beans of nearly any old arabica variety over stale beans of some pricey and exotic brean or blend.

Both Kona and JMB are very smooth, well balanced and subtle. I think that many people expect some sort of earth shattering and transcendant experience or a major coffee epiphanywhen they drink those two celebrated beans but it's really their smooth and subtle nature that is the draw. It's not everyone's cup of.... uhhh.... coffee. The high price for those two coffees is a simple matter of supply and demand. To be a true Kona or JMB the beans must be grown in a particular area, typically one that is limited in size. It's also worth noting that in both Kona and Jamaica (most particularly Kona), we might assume that the growers are actually earning a living wage, in contrast to much of the other coffee growing population in the world.

jgould · February 17, 2004

aware this question may be too naive
In this forum there is no such thing as a question that's too naive. If a different thread is required we will start one.
prefer staright varietals when consuming Americano's. Drip coffee is another story - some of the varietals that I really like as Americanos, I am less fond of when made as drip coffee.
I'll reemphasize the excellent point that was already made - the critical importance of freshness. It's hard enough to find REAL Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain, much less find the real thing that is truly freshroasted (i.e. was roasted within 24 - 48 hours of the time you get the coffee). I'll take fresh roasted beans of nearly any old arabica variety over stale beans of some pricey and exotic brean or blend.
Both Kona and JMB are very smooth, well balanced and subtle. I think that many people expect some sort of earth shattering and transcendant experience or a major coffee epiphanywhen they drink those two celebrated beans but it's really their smooth and subtle nature that is the draw. It's not everyone's cup of.... uhhh.... coffee. The high price for those two coffees is a simple matter of supply and demand. To be a true Kona or JMB the beans must be grown in a particular area, typically one that is limited in size. It's also worth noting that in both Kona and Jamaica (most particularly Kona), we might assume that the growers are actually earning a living wage, in contrast to much of the other coffee growing population in the world.

drip as opposed to _____ ?

i have a typical Krups, like most.

&, how does one actually know "fresh-roasted?

thx

Katherine · February 17, 2004

aware this question may be too naive
prefer staright varietals when consuming Americano's. Drip coffee is another story - some of the varietals that I really like as Americanos, I am less fond of when made as drip coffee.
I'll reemphasize the excellent point that was already made - the critical importance of freshness. It's hard enough to find REAL Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain, much less find the real thing that is truly freshroasted (i.e. was roasted within 24 - 48 hours of the time you get the coffee). I'll take fresh roasted beans of nearly any old arabica variety over stale beans of some pricey and exotic brean or blend.
drip as opposed to _____ ?
i have a typical Krups, like most.
&, how does one actually know "fresh-roasted?

Drip as opposed to espresso, in this case. (americano is an espresso variation)

If your coffee doesn't have a roasted-on date on the package, and you care (most people don't care/can't tell if their coffee's fresh or godawful stale), then you have no way of knowing when it was roasted. Either find a small roaster that will sell fresh coffee to you, or roast your own.

Warning: Once you do this you can never go back.

jgould · February 17, 2004

i have a typical Krups drip coffee maker, like most.
If your coffee doesn't have a roasted-on date on the package, and you care (most people don't care/can't tell if their coffee's fresh or godawful stale), then you have no way of knowing when it was roasted.

thx kath, we buy our beans (mocha java, vanilla almond, vienna, french vanilla, french roast, & sometimes kona) from large sacks or barrels in specialty food stores in neighborhood, which are then poured into take home packages to be ground at home; therefore, there is no date. so, how do i know the "roasting" dates??

what is "americano" as opposed to drip & as opposed to buying a full-fledged expresso machine at williams-sonoma; &

can u recommend a coffee maker that is considered to be a better method than the krups drip style coffee maker?

thx

malachi · February 17, 2004

don't buy from those bins. please.

find a good local artisan roaster, or order from one (see list below).

an Americano is the Italien attempt at creating a "American-style" coffee. basically, it's espresso floated on hot water.

i'd say the best "price-point" coffee maker is a french press.

artisan roasters:

http://www.zokacoffee.com/

http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/

http://www.stumptowncoffee.com/

jgould · February 17, 2004

don't buy from those bins. please.
find a good local artisan roaster, or order from one (see list below).
an Americano is the Italien attempt at creating a "American-style" coffee. basically, it's espresso floated on hot water.
i'd say the best "price-point" coffee maker is a french press.
artisan roasters:
http://www.zokacoffee.com/
http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/
http://www.stumptowncoffee.com/

thx, will search out a "french press" & order from you recommended links - do u have a suggestion as to what would be a good 1st bean choice, the selections, to a novice, are daunting.

1 additional question: are u aware of an artisanal roaster, a little closer to home, i.e., manhattan??

thx :biggrin:

Edited February 17, 2004 by jgould (log)

malachi · February 17, 2004

for a French Press I don't think you could go wrong with:

- Guatamalan Antigua from Zoka,

- Arabian Moka-Java from Intelligentsia,

- Sumatra Mandheling from Stumptown.

Those are just personal favorites - those three roasters do a damn good job with just about any coffee. A good resource for reviews of coffees is http://www.coffeereview.com/

sorry - i know little to nothing about the coffee scene on the East Coast.

Oh... obviously you should order the coffee whole bean and grind it yourself. And order less rather than more - fresh coffee is key to the equation (refrigerator, freezer, etc. -- none of them substitute for freshness). i tend to never buy more than 1 pound at a time, and usually buy either 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound.

jgould · February 18, 2004

for a French Press I don't think you could go wrong with:
- Guatamalan Antigua from Zoka,
- Arabian Moka-Java from Intelligentsia,
- Sumatra Mandheling from Stumptown.
Those are just personal favorites - those three roasters do a damn good job with just about any coffee. A good resource for reviews of coffees is http://www.coffeereview.com/
sorry - i know little to nothing about the coffee scene on the East Coast.
Oh... obviously you should order the coffee whole bean and grind it yourself. And order less rather than more - fresh coffee is key to the equation (refrigerator, freezer, etc. -- none of them substitute for freshness). i tend to never buy more than 1 pound at a time, and usually buy either 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound.

interestingly, i went to my local "specialty" market this afternoon, & queried the guy in the coffee section amidst the barrels & sacks of all types of coffee beans. when i asked if any were "freshly-roasted", i pretty much received blank stares & digust from fellow customers :blink:

when i pressed for an answer, the reply was that the coffee was delivered yesterday, as to the freshness, the reply was again - delivered yesterday. no response as to WHEN it was roasted. i guess an informed customer is NOT what these places want?? on a third attempt, i asked if ALL the coffee in the area was delivered yesterday? obviously, i did not receive any answer :biggrin:

so, i guess, to KNOW IF coffee is fresh, i.e., freshly-roasted, one must either know their source, or go to a very specialty store, or mail order from a specialty site. which does beg the question as to how fresh IS mail ordered "fresh-roasted" coffee beans??????????

re: french press - will try to find tomorrow.

what a "can of worms" :wacko:

malachi · February 18, 2004

Good roasters always roast date their coffees.

As for mail-order -- if you're dealing with a good roaster they will roast and ship the same day. Coffees need to "de-gas" for between 4 and 72 hours, so shipping them (priority or two day) should result in optimal coffee on your doorstep.

Thus, the "don't order too much" suggestion.

I know it seems complex and perhaps overwhelming, but it's actually more simple than you might see. The trouble is that you have to unlearn much of what you've been told, and ignore much of what you hear. The amount of mis and dis-information about coffee (and the amount of ignorance and incompetence, even in the industry itself) is astonishing.

Step One: Buy a small amount of high quality, fresh and roast dated coffee from a reputable, skilled artisan roaster (by small amount, I would suggest no more than you will go through in 4-5 days).

Step Two: Grind only enough for one French Press. Put grounds in French Press (I prefer my coffee ground quite coarse for French Press, but it's a matter of personal taste).

Step Three: Boil water.

Step Four: Pour water over grounds to fill French Press. Stir once.

Step Five: Wait for between 3 and 5 minutes (depending upon your personal taste - I tend to brew for no more than 4 minutes myself).

Step Six: Plunge, pour.

Step Seven: Taste. Looked shocked. Discover just how great coffee can be (or discover that the particular coffee you ordered is not to your taste - grin).

Step Eight: Add sugar and/or cream if that's the sort of thing you like (but please please please... always taste the coffee by itself first).

To make all this happen all you need to do is:

- Buy a French Press (I'm a fan of the Bodum 16oz myself).

- Buy a good burr grinder (check out the reviews on http://www.coffeegeek.com/ for advice).

- Buy a little coffee.

Far easier than making Hollendaise, no?

Edited February 18, 2004 by malachi (log)

Java-Joe · February 18, 2004

Malachi,

What a gem you are to this BB. Are you the same Malachi on the Barista Board? Your knowledge and advice given here is tops.

jgould........if you're into mail order coffee, Malachi's recommendations are very good and worthy of trying. I read about Zabar's many years ago. I think it was in Timothy Castle's book "The Perfect Cup." I understand that they roast their coffee VERY light, but Mr. Zabar considers anything over one day old as stale. (Give me a friggin' break!) If you like a "cinnamon roast" he's your man, but I absolutely do not believe you're really gonna enjoy all of the great qualities of a good/great coffee.

I don't want to go on a rant about Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain. Are they good? Sure. But not worth the money unless you can afford it. I don't even think it's worth it for a special occasion. A really really good Guat. Antigua or Sulawesi Toraja (Celebes Kalossi some places) are a much greater value anyday!

Java-Joe

PS: French Press is THE way to go for regular coffee.

malachi · February 18, 2004

(blush)

thanks.

yup... that's me there, here (everywhere?).

jgould · February 18, 2004

re: malachi & Java-Joe: many many thx!!!!!!

Susan in FL · February 18, 2004

Good Morning! Wish the cup of coffee I am sipping right now was prepared by you, malachi. :smile: Thanks, jgould and Java-Joe, as well. I've been half-watching this topic all along, and these last few posts really grabbed my attention. Very informative, and appetizing.

malachi · February 18, 2004

I'm glad.

In the immortal words of Dr. Illy... "Great espresso is like 30 minutes of heaven. Bad espresso is like 30 minutes in the dentist's chair."

This morning I had a wonderful Ethiopian Yrgecheffe Estate Auction Lot from Eastside Artisan Coffees. A stunning coffee. Incredibly complex and wild tasting, with wonderful flower and wine/berry notes. Not a big coffee - but a truly intense one.

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