N'western U's cafeteria honors MLK w/fried chicken

[Alex]

Northwestern University students were invited on Monday to "honor" Martin Luther King Jr. with a "special lunch," which included collard greens, cornbread and fried chicken. This story was posted yesterday at obscurestore.com, which referenced a student's letter to the editor of The Daily Northwestern. (Scroll down to the second letter.)

[JPW]

Oy!!!

On behalf of all NU alums - my apologies.

It just goes to show that NU which continues to have a black student body that is a whopping 6.8% of all undergraduate students, continues to be led by an administration that is VERY white -- not so much racist, but clueless.

I would think that somebody in the admin would have remembered the Fuzzy Zoeller incident at the Masters.

[jhlurie]

I suppose this is a case where you can look at it two ways:

1.) What foods did MLK really like in real life?

2.) Is it wise to feature those foods in some kind of celebration?

[JPW]

I think that the student letter hits at the crux of the problem -- stereotypes.

I'm not sure if Dr. King liked fried chicken and collard greens. But that is rather tangential to the issue. In the context of events honoring Dr. King, the menu of foods that are often stereotypically associated with African-Americans does indeed cause problems due to the context.

1) I don't know if it is purely regional, but growing up in the Northeast, when people would talk about the "fried chicken/collard greens/watermelon" eaters, it was done in a distinctly perjorative way by both white and black. The mental association was a particular picture of uncivilized, poor, and uneducated people, along the lines of some of the worst cartoons you might have seen.

2) Northwestern is a decidedly Northern place. It is also a decidely white place. As noted in my first post, the proportion of students of African-American descent is under 7% - about the same as when I was there during the reign of Bush the Elder. It was a very segregated place and homogenous enough that, having grown up in a big city, it made me feel uncomfortable --- and I'm white. Imagine how it made most African-Americans feel. In fact, I recall the black drop-out rate as being very high compared to other racial groups. The administration of Northwestern (as is the case in most universities) has always been EXTREMELY white.

Put it all together, and in spite of intent, you have the perception of a very powerful, largely white, institution attempting to disparage the leading figure in promoting minority rights by evoking the stereotype that he, and people who happen to share his skin tone, are nothing but savages.

Would it have been the same problem if a white southern private school did it?

A southern public school? A historically black college or university (HCBU - the Department of Education official designation) ?

I don't know.

[ExtraMSG]

I'm not black, but I'll be provacative and comment anyway...

Does anyone else think that they may be a little hyper-sensitive here? The truth is that a lot of African-Americans, especially from the south, do like fried chicken. I understand that it's a stereotype, but it's not really a negative one.

I think that soul food is a laudable part of black culture. If I were black, I would hope I'd be proud of my food heritage. If people try to use it in a negative way, screw them.

I wonder if this same issue would arise if for Cinco de Mayo Northwestern served enchiladas and tamales? I kind of doubt it.

I understand the sensitivity to the issue. When Zoeller made his comments, he wasn't doing it in a nice way, he was being an ass. Northwester appears to be trying to at least honor African-American culture, which includes their traditional foods. If the black students would have embraced it, it could have been a positive thing. Is it racist that the Food Network has two black ladies who teach soul food?

[hwilson41]

I'm not black, but I'll be provacative and comment anyway...

Does anyone else think that they may be a little hyper-sensitive here?  The truth is that a lot of African-Americans, especially from the south, do like fried chicken.  I understand that it's a stereotype, but it's not really a negative one.

You don't have to be black, or poor, or anything else to love fried chicken and collards. I'm white, and Southern, and I grew up eating both and love them. We get so strung out about political correctness that we overlook the obvious - it's good food. And although I have no firsthand knowledge, I'd be astonished to learn that MLK Jr didn't like them. Assuming that's so, what on earth is wrong with serving foods the man liked?

THW

[Dave the Cook]

It's hard to imagine that Paschal's Restaurant would have become the de-facto board room of the civil rights movement had the participants not liked fried chicken.

Edit: added link; scroll past the hype for the chicken batter mix for the relevant story.

Edited January 21, 2004 by Dave the Cook (log)

[jhlurie]

You could look at it this way. Let's say that Albert Einstein's birthday was turned into a holiday and, because he was Jewish, Matzo Ball soup and Brisket were served...

Does that toe the same line? Let's assume for a moment that it's a known fact that Einstein liked those items (I have no idea).

[slkinsey]

I don't know that you can make that comparison, Jon. Albert Einstein is not a person who is particularly symbolic to or of the Jewish people as MLK is for African Americans. Perhaps a better comparison might be it people wore pocket protectors and carried around slide rules for Einstein Day.

[jhlurie]

I don't know that you can make that comparison, Jon. Albert Einstein is not a person who is particularly symbolic to or of the Jewish people as MLK is for African Americans. Perhaps a better comparison might be it people wore pocket protectors and carried around slide rules for Einstein Day.

I suppose that's debatable. He was offered the presidency of Israel and turned it down. He was one of the first Jews who was respected world wide without any apparent stigma based on his religion--he was iconic DESPITE it, which made it all more important in a way for a representative of a people who were never allowed to have that seperation.

But back to the basic topic. Does the food itself have the insulting racial connotations some assume? I don't think so, but then again at the same time I could see some idiot who was subject to bad parenting sitting in the Northwestern cafeteria making some moronic joke about watermelon and Dr. King. Then again... can you really protect the world from idiots?

[reesek]

You could look at it this way. Let's say that Albert Einstein's birthday was turned into a holiday and, because he was Jewish, Matzo Ball soup and Brisket were served...

Does that toe the same line? Let's assume for a moment that it's a known fact that Einstein liked those items (I have no idea).

if it was being served to me by german-americans i'd wonder if there was a slur involved.

(just my jewish NU grad opinion)

[ExtraMSG]

And you can say the same thing about anything. Idiots are idiots and will make dumb comments about whatever they can. Like I said, compare it to Cinco de Mayo or another holiday that gets celebrated in relation to a culture, St. Patrick's Day, eg. (Isn't green beer a hell of a lot more inflammatory?)

I thought the more shameful issue was that the person in the letter said that it was bad soul food. Canned tamales would be no kind of honor for Cinco de Mayo and greasy, bland, dry fried chicken is no honor to African-American culture either.

[tryska]

When you're in the South, that particular menu has no racial connotations whatsoever.

really - i think fried chicken, collard greens and cornbread is really an Iconic meal of the South.

everywhere else it's called "soul food" down here, it's just food.

now if they'd had watermelon for dessert in the middle of winter - well hell yes, that would really racist. i'm hoping a cobbler or perhaps a bread pudding were served instead. ermm...[/sarcasm]

[JPW]

I disagree with you there Sam. I think the Mazto ball soup is the appropriate analogy (especially with the comments the student made in the letter) because the focus is brought not upon Dr. King's works, but his race. So the Matzo and Brisket focuses not on Eintein's work, but his religion.

Yes, I agree somewhat that there can be a little over-sensitivity to this issue.

But again it's context. Fuzzy Zoeller, in just about the whitest sport around - professional golf, at a tournament that fairly excludes elitism - the Masters, makes a joke about race and food groups that was clear enough that most of the country understood just fine. He didn't mean to come off as a racist, even Tiger said so. But the rest of the world didn't know Fuzzy, to most he was just a guy on TV saying something that is generally viewed as pretty racist. As a white guy, I say things around African-American friends that I would never say around African-Americans I don't know. Strangers have no context to judge beyond my words.

I sincerely doubt that the NU food service commonly serves fried chicken and collards for events. Their explicit inclusion on the occasion cannot help but be interpreted badly. Especially given the Fuzzy incident of just a couple years ago.

[jhlurie]

You could look at it this way.  Let's say that Albert Einstein's birthday was turned into a holiday and, because he was Jewish, Matzo Ball soup and Brisket were served...

Does that toe the same line?  Let's assume for a moment that it's a known fact that Einstein liked those items (I have no idea).

if it was being served to me by german-americans i'd wonder if there was a slur involved.

(just my jewish NU grad opinion)

It's possible that there might be a confusion of messages there: menial cafeteria staff is African-American (look, I don't know this for a fact, but if the analogy of german jews having to serve jewish food is being equated...), MLK is African-American, students are mostly white, cafe staff is "serving" MLK's "food" to the white students.

Of course we are only one link short of this on days other than MLK day in that cafeteria.

Apart from the issue of who is serving food to who--a timebomb of an issue not entirely food related--one has to wonder how many people EATING in that cafeteria actually noticed. Probably only those who were looking to, and the rest maybe just though "Hey, I love Fried Chicken! Cool!". Certainly the issue here may not relate to food at all--it may simply be an issue of how sensitive Northwestern is to the offense of people not eating the food.

[Andrew Fenton]

Representing King's life and work by an assortment of poorly cooked, stereotypically black foods is a tragedy.

I think we know what the real insult is here.

[reesek]

if the analogy of german jews having to serve jewish food is being equated...), MLK is African-American, students are mostly white, cafe staff is "serving" MLK's "food" to the white students.

Of course we are only one link short of this on days other than MLK day in that cafeteria.

Apart from the issue of who is serving food to who--a timebomb of an issue not entirely food related--one has to wonder how many people EATING in that cafeteria actually noticed. Probably only those who were looking to, and the rest maybe just though "Hey, I love Fried Chicken! Cool!". Certainly the issue here may not relate to food at all--it may simply be an issue of how sensitive Northwestern is to the offense of people not eating the food.

my point wasn't at all that cafe employees are black - almost no one there is. most employees are students - most students are not black. the analogy was - if i was one of the few black students being served stereotypically black food - by a white university on the only black holiday of the year - i'd wonder if there wasn't an implict slur.

i think the real point is that it didn't even occur to the university that some students might find that offensive.

the food was always offensive.

[slkinsey]

I disagree with you there Sam. I think the Mazto ball soup is the appropriate analogy (especially with the comments the student made in the letter) because the focus is brought not upon Dr. King's works, but his race. So the Matzo and Brisket focuses not on Eintein's work, but his religion.ago.

Dr. King's work was all about race. His memory and reputation is inextricably tied to black America in much the same way that Einstein's memory is inextricably tied to physics. Serving foods that are traditionally associated with black Americans on the day dedicated to the man who is most associated with furthering their cause -- indeed, to the point of giving his life -- strikes me as being just as appropriate as any menu constructed along similar lines (e.g., serving corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day). If Einstein's work and fame had been fundamentally or substantially about furthering the cause of the Jewish people, which it was not, then serving typical Jewish foods on "Einstein Day" would not strike me as inappropriate.

Really, while I don't think this menu is inherrently any less appropriate than any similarly constructed menu, I do think it was poor judgment on the part of the cafeteria simply because "fried chicken, collard greens and cornbread" has been used in a pejorative sense, and is taken as such by some people.

On a related note... I wonder why we serve certain "traditional" foods on some holidays and not others? People drink green beer and eat corned beef on St. Patrick's Day, and yet do not drink red wine and eat pasta on Colombus Day.

[Mayhaw Man]

When you're in the South, that particular menu has no racial connotations whatsoever.

really - i think fried chicken, collard greens and cornbread is really an Iconic meal of the South.

everywhere else it's called "soul food" down here, it's just food.

now if they'd had watermelon for dessert in the middle of winter - well hell yes, that would really racist. i'm hoping a cobbler or perhaps a bread pudding were served instead. ermm...[/sarcasm]

As a cracker dude who would order fried chicken, greens, corn bread, iced tea, and peach cobbler for my last meal, my opinion here may not count for much but I pretty much agree with Tryska right down the line. EVERYBODY I KNOW who grew up in close proximity to me eats this stuff as a choice, not to fulfill someone else's sterotypical dream for us. I like fried chicken. I like fois gras. I like Head Cheese. I like truffles. I like beer. I like Champagne. I like my redneck neighbors. I like Yankees (which is a good thing since my nearest neighbors are snowbirds from Minn). When they name a national holiday after me I HOPE that everyone in this country will sit down to a delightful well cooked meal of some of the above items-particularly fried chicken, which when cooked with real chicken (not 10 percent ploy whatever added for flavor, etc. is one of the finest meals on the planet). Equally as tasty and delicious as 8 week old dry aged beef from Bern's or Ruth's or Luger's and just as good as the fabulous duck liver pate I enjoyed at Peristyle the other night.

And I agree pretty much down the line with MSG's comments above (sometimes I stun even myself ) except that I don't think that the comments need to be limited to black people. We all grew up eating this stuff and no one called it soul food (in fact the first time I ever saw that term was on a sign in a movie (either Shaft or Cotton Comes to Harlem)). Down here, like Trysta said, we pretty much call it lunch.

Mr King probably did eat his share of chicken and greens. While we all tend to think of Mr King as a full time social activist, he was a minister FIRST. For those of you that have no sense of the Southern traditions involving preachers and Sunday lunch you should know that having the minister over after dinner (especially a visiting one, as Mr King would have often been) is an honor and you put out the best meal possible. This would be, for Sunday lunch, typically chicken, peas, mashed potatoes, butterbeans, bisquits, etc. This food, when cooked well, is considered by guests to be an honor to eat, not a stereotypical insult. I'm sure he enjoyed it many times as that is what his hosts-black and white- were likely to have prepared for their honored guest.

This is a silly argument (at least as held by the Northwestern letter writer -the egullet part has been pretty intelligent and entertaining, so far ) and I can't think why I have even put in my two cents worth except that I believe that Dr King was a hell of a brave guy and if you believe in all of that heaven and hell stuff you have got to think that he is up there laughing at all of this.

[ExtraMSG]

Although, sure, it's "lunch" in the south, you can say the same thing about Mexican food in the southwest. But still, recognize its source:

http://www.foxhome.com/soulfood/htmls/soulfood.html

The slave diet began to evolve when slaves entered the plantation houses as cooks. With an array of new ingredients at their fingertips and a well-tuned African palate, the cooks would make delectable foods for their masters. Suddenly southern cooking took on new meaning. Fried chicken began to appear on the tables, sweet potatoes (which had replaced the African yam) sat next to the boiled white potato. Regional foods like apples, peaches and berries, nuts and grains, soon became puddings and pies. Possum was the meat of choice among slaves since hunting was done during the only free hours a slave had, after all the work for their master was complete, in the wee hours of the night.

Soon the slave's cuisine became knows as "good times" food. After long hours working in the fields or up at the house, the evening meal was a time for families to get together. The big pots became a meal for both body and soul. It was during the meal that the oral history was re-told, forbidden religious ceremonies held and family and friends visited.

Some slaves tried to escape from captivity and Native Americans took in many. From the Native Americans they learned to use the ground green sassafras leaves as a new spice. Sadly, many escaped slaves were re-captured and returned to their plantations. No doubt the ground sassafras went with them and was called "file'" by Lousiana slaves.

[tryska]

okay?

and some of the best foods come from cultures of adversity. (cajun cooking and everything but the oink...and all that)

following the logic - if we want to be good politically correct people, who have nothing to do with slavery, we need to stop eating fried chicken and mac n cheese? right?

if anything - rather than seeing this particular meal as some sort of racial dividing line - which it seems to be to some Northeners...understand that in the South, history aside - this food which may have been "black" food to begin with or have it's roots in slavery - has been co-opted by everyone, race and culture indifferent and is now "Southern food"

Edited January 21, 2004 by tryska (log)

[Busboy]

Mr King probably did eat his share of chicken and greens. While we all tend to think of Mr King as a full time social activist, he was a minister FIRST. For those of you that have no sense of the Southern traditions involving preachers and Sunday lunch you should know that having the minister over after dinner (especially a visiting one, as Mr King would have often been) is an honor and you put out the best meal possible. This would be, for Sunday lunch, typically chicken, peas, mashed potatoes, butterbeans, bisquits, etc. This food, when cooked well, is considered by guests to be an honor to eat, not a stereotypical insult. I'm sure he enjoyed it many times as that is what his hosts-black and white- were likely to have prepared for their honored guest.

I spent a few months working for the Reverend Jesse Jackson back during the '88 campaign and his contunually expanding wasteline -- which we ascribed to his delivering so many campaign speeches in black churches -- was something of a running joke. Any church event scheduled for anywhere near meal time was sure to include a very serious buffet, prepared by the ladies of the church, and served in the basement meeting rooms or, on nice days, on folding tables outside. The standard menu was pretty much a variation on what you describe, and Reverend always partook with vigor, much to the delight of the local folks.

Sadly, staff never seemed to get invited to the feast.

[jhlurie]

following the logic - if we want to be good politically correct people, who have nothing to do with slavery, we need to stop eating fried chicken and mac n cheese?  right?

If taken to that extent, it sounds pretty ridiculous. I suppose what's being suggested is that the people most affected by the Holiday would also be the people most likely to misunderstand a "tribute" that could be taken by some as a dig. What complicates things is that a style of eating that is damn near universal in the south is marginalized as "black food" by some in the north instead of simply being seen as southern cooking. That's a problem that goes far beyond these theoretical black students at Northwestern who theoretically might be offended, and into a general Northern confusion about African-Americans, southern culture, where they intersect, and where they don't.

EDIT - and.... I see that the alteration of the very post I responded to with the above says something not so different now... "North don't know South"

Edited January 21, 2004 by jhlurie (log)

[tryska]

What complicates things is that a style of eating that is damn near universal in the south is marginalized as "black food" by some in the north instead of simply being seen as southern cooking. That's a problem that goes far beyond these theoretical black students at Northwestern who theoretically might be offended, and into a general Northern confusion about African-Americans, southern culture, where they intersect, and where they don't.

this particular issue has given me a hazy notion of it being more racist than the meal itself. i can't quite put it in to words, but you have come far closer than i did.

[laurenmilan]

Northwestern University students were invited on Monday to "honor" Martin Luther King Jr. with a "special lunch," which included collard greens, cornbread and fried chicken. This story was posted yesterday at obscurestore.com, which referenced a student's letter to the editor of The Daily Northwestern. (Scroll down to the second letter.)

They could have hurriedly slapped up a "Mrs. Wilkes Boardinghouse Appreciation Day" sign (seeing as how those are as much the foods of white Southerners as they are of blacks'...) Last I heard, you could stereotype white Southerners with no complaints...

Mmmm... Mrs. Wilkes...