Grimes Hates Waiters

[Sandra Levine]

Quote: from 861728 on 2:16 pm on Jan. 18, 2002

As a server, and, coincidentally a graduate student of psychoanalysis,

Ah, that's the answer to the question of what kind of training a waiter should have.  

When I worked at Dean & DeLuca, I used to say that most of the people who came in were customers, others were clients, but a few were patients.

[861728]

YVONNE - I write everything down - always have and always train others to do so. Why waiters try to memorize is beyond me. Why make your job harder and riskier.

I don't feel like I am being untrue to myself and it's exceedingly rare that I am asked to align myself with anything truly untenable. Just as you don't want to tell a waiter to shut up I see no reason to counter the ebullience of a guest looking for affirmation. If what the guest wants is for me to wax poetic on California Cabs to confirm his choice then that's what I'll do, regardless of whether or not that would be my choice as a diner.

My jab at Grimes was that he seemed to set the waiter up. 1st expressing the idea that he would be happy to hear all about the cuisine and then complaining about the content of the answer. It's the old adage reworked:"Ask a broad question, get a broad answer" Or, as the messenger said to Cleopatra "To punish me for what you make me do seems most unequal."

God knows why restaurants have the litany of specials. As Shaw writes elsewhere, in the age of computers it's silly not to print everything up the day of.

I am so pleased with the waiter at CRAFT! I love that story. Your actions communicated your enjoyment, no need for him to interject and say, "How is everything?"

[861728]

Quote: from Sandra Levine on 6:27 pm on Jan. 18, 2002

Ah, that's the answer to the question of what kind of training a waiter should have.  

My fellow classmates  think the restaurant has trained me for the analytic work. :) My thesis will come out of the restaurant world, not sure how yet.

[yvonne johnson]

Transference and counter-transference seen in diner-server relationship? Oh, better...didn't Melanie Klein argue that the 50 minute analytic hour originated in the view that that's how long the infant's ideal breast feeding session should last? It's all about food when you think about it. I did some training at the Tavistock Clinic in London. It was wonderful.  There's so much to study here, I think, as most psycho-analytic writing looks at food and infancy; not so much written on food and adults. All the best for your thesis.

[Fat Guy]

Yvonne, I stayed at the Tavistock Hotel once. Does that count?

861728, I also got the sense that some of the waiters discussed in the Grimes piece had been unfairly set up. Then again, some of them were probably going to impose themselves on him no matter what.

Me, I love to talk to waiters. Even the most talkative ones eventually get worn down by me and have to break off the conversation in order to attend to their other guests, because I really am interested in everything they have to say both about the food and about themselves. I'm even interested in what the complete idiots have to say. I find that most of the waiters at the better restaurants in New York are far more interesting than the average person. Unless I've got pressing matters to discuss with my dinner companions, or I've got hot food sitting in front of me, I'm thrilled to talk to the waiter. And I'm good at getting waiters to talk to me, especially surly French waiters who don't like to talk.

I think it's important to distinguish between psychoanalysis and the therapeutic culture. They are, as far as I'm concerned, opposites. The therapeutic culture is all about rejecting anything so rigorous as psychoanalyis, which might actually require both thought and some notion of personal responsibility and self. The therapeutic culture is about avoidance of responsibility, feeling good through quasi-religious rituals, and having lots of self-pitying meetings with other dysfunctional people.

Am I the only person who derives genuine personal satisfaction from my temporary pretend friendships with waiters? Haven't waiters been wonderful faux-friends since the beginning of the restaurant industry, and didn't servants of all kinds fill that role in the past? Call me shallow, but I think there's a place for unequal social interactions of that sort. I mean, isn't that what I pay my shrink to do? Eating at a restaurant tends to be cheaper, and you get food.

Once in awhile, I even make real friends with a waiter. Somehow I don't think that has ever happened to Grimes. Could it be that he is unwittingly defending the class system? No, it wouldn't be fair for me to accuse him of that.

I hope nobody reading 861728s post is surprised to learn that waiters fake it, and often recreate themselves in part as what they thing the customer wants them to be. I say let them, I'm glad if they do a good job of it. If I hired a high class call girl for the night, I'd expect her to convince me that she was whatever I asked her to be and that all her reactions to me were genuine. But I'd never be so witless as to believe it. When a lawyer goes to court on behalf of a client, he makes the most effective and persuasive possible arguments for his side. Does anybody think that lawyer actually cares which side he's on?

[tommy]

i was lying in bed thinking this morning, and i started questioning the "three plums" phrase.  often times, there are common sayings that i don't know, since English is my first language.  

so a brief question to y'all:  is this a common phrase that i misinterpreted?  i just want to make sure i'm understanging grimes' and 861728's point.  thanks!

[Fat Guy]

I invoke the three-plums metaphor six or seven times a day and if you don't know exactly what it means you're a big dummy just like I always thought.

[Jason Perlow]

What the #### is a three plums metaphor?

Screw this, I resign. I cant handle this freaking MENSA party anymore. :)

[Catseye]

so a brief question to y'all:  is this a common phrase that i misinterpreted?  i just want to make sure i'm understanging grimes' and 861728's point.  thanks!

Tommy, I don't know what it means, either.  So all we need is one other who doesn't know, then we can start the Three Dummies Club.  :cheesy:

Cats

[mamster]

I'm not going to say so at such length (ahem), but I like talkative waiters, too.  I don't like all of them, but I don't like all people in general (who does?), and I would rather take my chances with a motor-mouthed waiter I might really enjoy than a dull, silent one.

I especially like it when waiters gossip to me about other customers or the average customer and make me feel exemplary.  It's like when a stand-up comic goes on about "society," and you're like, "Yeah, society!  What a bunch of idiots!"

[Christopher]

We can't know from the article what the exact communication was. All we know is that Grimes narrowed his choice to three very good bottles and the waiter affirmed that they were all very good bottles or, in the colloquialism at hand, they were all plum choices.

But here is where I think that communication would not be helpful to my guests. Let's say a guest has narrowed down to three white burgundies all within a ฟ range of each other. Let's further refine to say they are each 1er cru and all from the same vintage. What I need to do is select the best of the three. If I've tasted all three I will certainly have a strong opinion on which is the most complete wine at this time ( fruit, acid, legnth, terroir) If I haven't, I will choose by producer.

If a guest has selected three vastly different wines (Red Burgundy, Barbaresco, California Zin) then I need to ask more questions to find out what they are looking for or, if they don't want a dialogue, pick the best bottle for their order.

To service and recomendations in general: The majority of my recomendations now come from the feedback of guests over the years. I've been at GT since we opened and have heard nothing but raves about certain dishes. So, what do I suggest? What you've told me to suggest through the years. Does this make sense?

Also, the great majority of my guests are looking for me to have an opinion. I am asked directly to choose meals. It doesn't diminish their capacity as informed diners, it simply means that part of the experience for them is not having to make any choices and for 3 hours to be in someone elses care.

[tommy]

Quote: from Christopher on 12:20 pm on Jan. 19, 2002

All we know is that Grimes narrowed his choice to three very good bottles and the waiter affirmed that they were all very good bottles or, in the colloquialism at hand, they were all plum choices.

i think i'm finally understanding what the phrase meant.  i'm such an idiot!  LOL!  somebody shoot me.

[Rail Paul]

Christopher -

when you're asked for a wine opinion, how much do you weight the comments made by prior customers concerning the various pairings of a particular wine and food combination?

If the person making the decision doesn't appear to be especially knowledgeable about wines, do you suggest a wine as "I think x might be an excellent choice" or do you offer "Previous patrons have appreciated x with the duck, etc"?

I'm assuming that, since your guests expect YOU to have an answer, you provide the answer as a an expression of your expertise.  Am I correct?

Thanks

Paul

[Christopher]

Paul -

The decision to pair or choose a wine is mine in the moment and I want the guest to feel that what's being brought to bear is my knowledge of the food and wine combined with whatever direction they've given me. (Color, price, style)

I take everything I can into consideration however I avoid external referencing to a previous diner especially if the person seems less familiar with wines. I don't want there to be the pressure of all the previous diners were pleased with this selection when the initial taste is poured. I want it to be a personal collaboration with each table  and for the guest to feel free to accept or decline. It's in my best interest for you to be happy.

[Bux]

Christopher, welcome to eGullet. Take no offense at the things Shaw has said about waiters. It was bad enough when he called them servants, then went on to make anaologies between what ke expects from high price call girls and a waiters, but surely the lowest blow was when he added lawyers to the equation. And we're supposed to think Grimes is the one who hates waiters.  ;)

Christopher's comments on wine recommendations remind my of the time I was upsold, just a little bit, on a wine. After discussing a few wines and narrowing my choices down, the manager of a restaurant (not GT) threw in a monkey wrench with a recommendation that sounded like it was made with some convinction. After we had drunk a bit of it and it was obvious we were enjoying the wine, the manager came back and told me I had made a good choice, "so and so," the wine critic, was drinking the same wine at another table that night. I appreciated it that he didn't hard sell the wine on that point and that he waited until I expressed pleasure before he let me know what influenced his recommendation.

[tommy]

judging by the letters to the editor in today's Dining Out section of the times, more than a few people took exception to grimes's idiotic position on chatty servers.

[Rachel Perlow]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/23/dining/23LETT.html

[tommy]

rachel is a bit like lycos i'd say.

;) thanks.