Boulangeries/bakeries in France - Paul, etc.

[Jonathan Day]

In the Market street in les Halles thread the discussion turned to bakeries and bakery chains. Bux wrote:

Paul is an interesting and either a disappointment or pleasant surprise depending on one's attitude towards chainsl. Paul is a chain bakery with several outlets in Paris--there's also one in the Buci market area--and around France. It's not one of Paris' absolute top boulangeries, but for those who despise chains, it's disappointly good.   

As an avid traveler, I am opposed to the idea of chains as well as the mall clothing stores displaying the same goods all over the world. I want a local experience when I travel, and enjoy the "gut reaction" from eating that which I can only get in a specific location. As I also want the best, I'm sometimes forced to choose between the local wares and the better chain offerings. At home in NY, I frequently buy my bread and some pastry at a Pain Quotidien shop. In Lyon I've bought bread at another outlet of the same Belgian bakery because it was convenient and the product is excellent.

Paul is part of a large family firm, Groupe Holder, which has multiple ranges: Paul, for more or less artisanally baked bread, Moulin Bleu, which does bread and baked goods on an industrial scale for retail stores and hospitals, and Saint Preux, a fast food chain specialising in breads and viennoiserie.

Paul itself has 240 outlets in France (some of which are franchised, in locations such as railway stations and airports) and some 30 outside France, including London, Tokyo, Osaka, Morocco, Spain, Dubai. I believe they retain the practice of never opening a new shop without sending staff from one of the existing shops to transmit their methods.

There seem to be different sorts of "chain" bakeries:

• Those like Paul, where the product is entirely prepared on premises. Sometimes the quality at these places can be very good. We often buy bread at le Petrin Ribeirou, a franchised chain specialising in pain au levain. Sometimes -- not consistently -- this bread rivals Poîlane's product in taste and texture.
  
• Those where the dough is prepared centrally, but the bread baked locally. Most of the supermarket "in store bakeries" seem to work in this way
  
• "Dépots de pain", or bread outlets, where bread prepared and baked centrally is sold over the counter. ]Some supermarket "bakeries" work in this way.
  

Despite a resurgence of interest in artisanal baking in France, I suspect that the chains will continue to prevail. My guess is that the economics of a standalone bakery, except in very "high traffic" locations, are not very good. The chains must be able to realise savings in purchasing ingredients and equipment, as well as to smooth out a seasonal dip in demand in one location through increases in demand in others. The good news is that it probably isn't necessary to go to the high volume, factory-made product (Moulin Bleu, in the Groupe Holder example above) in order to make an attractive return. A chain like Paul or Ribeirou can have all the bread prepared, baked and sold locally, yet realise scale economies through central purchasing.

[Bux]

Things change. Times change. Inevitable change is often referred to as progress. Perhaps calling it progress is just putting an optimistic face on the inevitable or just recognizing that 2004 is a bigger number than 1950, and thus we must be progressing. Somewhere in his A Goose in Toulouse, Mort Rosenblum details the move from the farms to the city in France between the time of the end of the 2nd World War and the end of the century. France is no longer an agricultural nation but it's self image is changing slowly. The Frenchman eating his burger at McDo on a sesame seed bun with a coke, still believes the French winemakers and bakers know how to produce the best bread and wine, but in fact it's no longer part of his daily life. "Economics," as Jonathan says plays a major role in the changing attitudes in France. The search for a better income has led young Frenchmen way from the farm, and the multitude of consumer goods--TVs, computers, washing machines, refrigerators, freezers, etc.--vie with good food for that income.

At one time, a good butcher, baker or restauranteur might have been content to have the best shop, product or restaurant in the neighborhood, city or region, but in today's economic climate, there's both the appeal and possibility to branch out and open a satellite business and if successful, eventually a chain. At the same time, there are more economic obstacles and less economic appeal to opening a bakery, for instance, in the first place. Banks find it far more reasonable to lend a million euros to a guy with a successful bakery who wants to expand his business, than a hundred thousand euros to a talented young man with the dream of opening a bakery and that's just one aspect of the economic reality. Jonathan spoke of the economies of scale that were not a part of life 50 years ago, but are paramount today.

From the standpoint of a traveler, chains are either deplorable because of the homogenization that makes travel less interesting, or a blessing that makes meals more reliable. This is all part of the same arguments heard about chain restaurants from those who travel for business in particular. Progress is relative. Approaching the guillotine for the executioner means his work is almost done, but the condemned isn't thinking he's making progress. With 240 outlets, I imagine Paul's is serving hundreds of thousands of eaters and that the vast majority of them are eating better bread because of it. None of this may matter to those dedicated to an Atkins diet, who may consider any interest in bread a step backwards.

I don't think an inferior chain bakery is going to put a great artisanal baker directly out of business. The danger, is there is any, is that as the chain grows, its product may deteriorate. The danger might be that the chain can introduce a shop where the product is an good as any around, and offer a greater variety of products at a lower price and thus make it unprofitable for a standalone bakery to compete. Once that's no longer in competition, the chain is free to concentrate on maximizing its profit with what may amount to a captive audience. That's my fear in terms of future quality.

As for France, it's not what it used to be. Neither is New York. I eat better in New York City, and for that matter, in most parts of the US, than I could forty years ago and I have a harder time eating well in France than I did in the sixties, but I can still go to France and travel on my stomach, indulge in no other cultural activity but gastronomy and still call it a successful trip.

[Louisa Chu]

Bux, with all due respect - and you know I respect you - I can't help but strongly disagree on a number of points. And Mort - that's a whole other story - if he ever gets around to lending me a copy of Goose then I can address those points - until then, we have a chain grocery shopping trip planned together in the near future - so I can try to persuade him that they've actually got some good stuff in them - especially the ones in France. I just can't tell you how wrong you are when it comes to the average Frenchman and their daily bread - not necessarily wine - but yes, bread - absolutely daily bread. Yes, we might go to Paul in Paris because it's convenient - especially in certain neighborhoods during the work week - but when it comes to the weekend - or any time you have that is your own - you go to your favourite boulangerie - and every neighborhood has a good one. Paul's fine - it really is - but if anyone tries to tell me that the average Parisian can't tell the difference in quality - or actually prefers it - then I'm sorry, we'll need a long night, a few bottles of wine, and some smokes - lots of smokes. This reminds me that I've got to look up my favourite pastry chef at Cordon Bleu - he told me almost a year ago - when we were making the Galettes des Rois together - that he was going to go and open his own shop - and he just did. My neighbor who owns our boulangerie across the street - she's not interested in branching out - she does a nice business already thanks - and has a life to boot. Think like a Frenchmen and you'll understand why chains will not win in France.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Lou, you touch on something else of importance. We have stayed at the same hotel in the 7th for over 10 years, and in doing so have a "rat track" of neighborhood food purveyers that we buy from almost daily. That does not mean that we think these are the best in Paris, but they are quite suitable for a daily artisanal baguette, chunk of cheese, slice of pate between our visits to destination shops. We are recognized and welcomed by these small merchants/producers, and are made to feel part of a community by them that we would never feel in a chain, nor at any of the grande food annexes. And to us, this is a big part of what going to France is about.

[degusto]

Jonathan,

Funny you think Ribeiro sometimes rivals Poilane. I think so too. Have you ever tried to buy the bread from various outlets the same day and done a bread tasting. It is quite interesting. Do it next time you are on the Riviera! Then we can match the results.

Bux,

You are partly but only partly rigth about how France has moved from being an agricultural nation.

Louisa,

I strongly agree with your point about the importance of the bread for any French person. You are so right. By the way, good luck at El Bulli. Try to learn as much as possible about the techniques there and don't bother about too much about the tastes.

From a business point of view I do not agree that a small artisanal bakery cannot exist and thrive in France. Ribeiro is not particularly big and the discounts each franchise get on purchases may be negligable in relation to the franchining fees paid to the franchise holder. Indeed, this I suspect is the reason that certain Ribeiro bakeries have broken out of the chain.

As far as I know every Ribeiro bakery is a quite lucrative business. The owner of the franchise is an extremely lucrative business. Bakery businesses in France in general are much more lucrative than restaurant businesses.

It is surpising that there are not more chains or sort of disguised chains in France since the mark-up on bread from a value added point of view is virtually unheard of in any industry today. Ribeiro's material cost so to speak is probably in the region of 17 % or less of price. So what I am saying is that the economies of scale are not of any great importance.

It is equally surpising there are so few real artisanal bread outlets. There is one on the market in Menton that sells breads such as it probably looked liked two hundred years ago. French people are crazy about it despite its extremely high price. I have only on few occasions come across a bakery such as that in France.

[admajoremgloriam]

My neighbor who owns our boulangerie across the street - she's not interested in branching out - she does a nice business already thanks - and has a life to boot.

Would that be "Pain d'épis", avenue Bosquet? If not, do you know this place? It is closer than Poujauran for me and I find it very satisafying overall.

Edited December 21, 2003 by admajoremgloriam (log)

[Louisa Chu]

Would that be "Pain d'épis", avenue Bosquet? If not, do you know this place? It is closer than Poujeauran for me and I find it very satisafying overall.

No, not pain d'epis which I know of course but the boulangerie on Grenelle on the park side of Bosquet. Let me look out the window to get the name - Gourmandises d'Eiffel - the blonde woman who owns the place lives in my building. Pain d'epis - I like them fine but nothing so special to make me walk the extra block. And you do know about my love/hate relationship with Poujauran? Love their bread - they have an especially good apricot petit pain right now - hate the vendeuses.

Jellybean, you're funny - thanks very much - I promise I'll be learning as much as I can.

[Jonathan Day]

Jonathan,

Funny you think Ribeiro sometimes rivals Poilane. I think so too. Have you ever tried to buy the bread from various outlets the same day and done a bread tasting. It is quite interesting. Do it next time you are on the Riviera! Then we can match the results.

A bread tasting could be very enjoyable. Worth departing from the low-carbohydrate regime for a day. I have counted something like 35 bakeries in and around Mougins, so this could involve a lot of bread.

From a business point of view I do not agree that a small artisanal bakery cannot exist and thrive in France. Ribeiro is not particularly big and the discounts each franchise get on purchases may be negligable in relation to the franchining fees paid to the franchise holder. Indeed, this I suspect is the reason that certain Ribeiro bakeries have broken out of the chain.

As far as I know every Ribeiro bakery is a quite lucrative business. The owner of the franchise is an extremely lucrative business. Bakery businesses in France in general are much more lucrative than restaurant businesses.

I have no idea of the true economics of a standalone bakery or of a small chain like Ribierou. My guess is that on an opportunity cost basis, taking into account the operator's labour and the cost of the capital equipment (ovens, mixers, etc.) the economic returns (essentially those appropriated by an operator who is only interested in the money) on a bakery aren't very good. They well may be better than those of a restaurant!

The bakery we most often use, da Silva in Mougins, is a single, standalone operation, run I believe by a family. Some of their breads, e.g. a pain à l'ancienne are very good; their pastries are undistinguished. My impression is that they work very, very hard.

There's nothing wrong with that. It could be more rewarding to spend the night baking bread than to toil in a law office, regardless of the money.

It is equally surpising there are so few real artisanal bread outlets. There is one on the market in Menton that sells breads such as it probably looked liked two hundred years ago. French people are crazy about it despite its extremely high price. I have only on few occasions come across a bakery such as that in France.

If the conjecture above is true, then it is perhaps not that surprising. I love Menton but don't know it half as well as I would like to. Where in the market is this bakery?

[rgural]

Loufood:

I think there are a lot of romantic notions surrounding the French and bread, and while undoubtedly bread plays a more important role in their culture than in America, it's worth noting that bread consumption has been declining there for decades. If the "average" Parisian cares so much about quality, how does one account for all the point chaud's, depots, and all the insipid white panini bread?

If your willing to walk 10 or 15 minutes you probably can find some excellent bread in most neighborhoods in Paris, but on your walk you'll probably pass 2,3, or 4 or 10 bakeries selling average to completely crappy bread. Outside of Paris my experience has been the situation is even worse. How do you explain that the majority of bread in France is garbage? That the average person can tell the difference is not the point, the average American can tell the difference between a great hamburger and a fast food one, but for the average person price and convenience are more important than quality.

I can't agree more with Bux's post, it's been my experience working in bakeries in France and with french bakers that there are many places in France where people will absolutely not pay a reasonable price for a baguette. As a result the production must be more mechanized, corners cut and the products quality suffers. I worked in a bakery in Paris that offered an excellent but more expensive baguette ancienne as well as a typical cheaper less good Parisien baguette, the cheaper baguette outsold the better one four or five to one. Look around France and you'll see that as far as bread goes what's cheap and hot is what's ruling the day, in spite of the resurgence of better bread thats taken place in the last twenty years.

Roger

[Bux]

Bux, with all due respect - and you know I respect you - I can't help but strongly disagree on a number of points. And Mort - that's a whole other story - if he ever gets around to lending me a copy of Goose then I can address those points - until then, we have a chain grocery shopping trip planned together in the near future - so I can try to persuade him that they've actually got some good stuff in them - especially the ones in France. I just can't tell you how wrong you are when it comes to the average Frenchman and their daily bread - not necessarily wine - but yes, bread - absolutely daily bread.

I am speaking of France as much as, or more than, Paris. Bread and wine are also metaphors for food and dining in general. My contact with Frenchmen is scattered and not very deep. I am likely to base much of my opinion on second hand stories and on observations of what I find in retail stores. Admittedly, the second hand stories are ones I'm told not necessarily because they're typical, but because they're pointed. I know that mediocre bakeries, both boulangeries and patisseries are not uncommon in Paris and they abound in the boondocks.

I don't present my arguments as scientifically based, nor as well researched. In fact both of us probably have a narrow slice of experience and the two of us have different experiences. I have over forty years between my first contact with France and my most recent one. That lends one kind of perspective, but most of my experiences are not long term. You have been living in Paris for a period that is probably greater than the sum total of my visits. You have also surrounded yourself with culinary professionals and that may work as an advantage in one aspect, but isolate you from the common Frenchman.

Paris is an interesting city and in a way, one that is in danger of becoming an artificial city. Its essential Frenchness and the preservation of that essential Frenchness may owe much to the foreign population that is drawn by it. Our friends who live in the Languedoc, don't have a bakery in their village. They have to drive to the next village to shop for anything. There is a bakery in the next village that makes an acceptable loaf of whole grain bread. For croissants, an excellent loaf of white bread or a choice of good loaves, they must drive to the nearest town. They do most of their shopping in that town on market day and during the week at a select number of small shops. Many of these shops are doing poorly and I understand the butcher just closed. The supermarket is doing well however. Yes, the hypermarchés in France can be extraordinary markets, but they don't offer the same service or knowledge found in a good shop. In fact, I don't know if I make my point or refute it by commenting on exactly how fantastic the best hypermarchés are in France.

Some years ago, I was picked up at my hotel in Brittany by a French chef currently working in NY, but on vacation, for a meal at his mother's house. (The main course, by the way, was a pork belly procured already cooked from a vender in the open air market.) He announced he had a few more things to buy before we went to his mother's house. I was most excited by the opportunity to shop with him and utterly dismayed when he pulled into the parking lot of one of the biggest suburban supermarkets I've ever seen. Depressed was perhaps the better word, but once I'd trudged through the aisles of frozen food and got to the aisle of the seven varieties of garlic and the rows of citrus fruits including those marked as untreated--meaning one could use the zest without ingesting untold pesticides--and got to the cheese and charcuterie, I was humbled and impressed. Beyond the shelves of processed and boxed factory cheese was an array of artisanal raw mild cheeses unmatched in NY's specialty shops, although I suspect it was beaten in some supermarket in a region known for its local cheese. Rillettes alone, from a variety of animals and fowl as well as from different breeds of pig would by themselves, have beaten any offerings of charcuterie I've seen in NY.

[Bux]

in spite of the resurgence of better bread thats taken place in the last twenty years.

The resurgence in interest in food in the last twenty years says a lot. Among the things it says is that there was a major decline in the twenty years before that resurgence. The twenty year graph is far more positive than the forty year graph. It's not that simple either. White bread ruled forty years ago with perhaps the baguette as the symbolic figure head. Today the gastronome's bread of choice is more likely to be a pain de levain or maybe even cereal integrale. The food renaissance looks further back than just the early twentieth century for its standards and inspirations. Regional breads are no longer restricted to the regions where they are traditional. Paul, in many ways, is a product of the renaissance as much as it is a symbol of a chain. It offers a variety of breads that make the 1960 Parisian boulangerie look provincial.

[John Whiting]

Bux, the decline in average bread standards is due to changing social patterns in which ordinary working people are no longer prepared to work the long hours for the low pay that prevailed among pre-industrial artisans. Accellerated bread manufacture, for instance, such as the Chorleywood process, was necessary as a result of laws (in the '20s I think) directing that French bakers should not be made to work before (I think) 3 a.m. That made long slow natural rising impractical.

There are a few dedicated producers who are willing to work the necessary hours, but they quite rightly demand premium prices for their products. Those who want real food must now be able and willing to pay for it. Large families on low incomes don't fall into that category. Real food at prices any but the rich can afford demands, as it did in the past, two societies, one of privileged consumers, the other of poor producers. This is what we now have in the area of raw produce, in which third world laborers grow our fruits and vegetables (as is also the case with most of our clothing). Imported produce is not all that much cheaper for the European consumer than what is grown within the same country, but supermarkets with plentiful cheap foreign supplies force wholesale prices down to the point where domestic farmers can no longer compete.

It may not be long before our bread is flown halfway around the world as well.

Edited December 21, 2003 by John Whiting (log)

[menton1]

There is a name and logo posted on many boulangeries throughout France which now totally escapes me. (Tightening of the brain blood vessels!) I do not know if this name means their supplier, or a cooperative, or a franchise. I have seen this same name on the outside signs everywhere from Nice to Paris. Can anyone help?

[Bux]

There is a name and logo posted on many boulangeries throughout France which now totally escapes me. (Tightening of the brain blood vessels!) I do not know if this name means their supplier, or a cooperative, or a franchise. I have seen this same name on the outside signs everywhere from Nice to Paris. Can anyone help?

It seemed to me that there were several logos to be found, maybe not. However I have a feeling I am familiar with this (or these) logos which seem to designate the shop as belonging to some group. Truthfully it does not represent a plus in my mind. I neither associate it with the best or the worst in town although it may be either in many towns. I rather associate this with an acceptable level of bread, but not a great one.

Au Pain Doré rings a bell, but I think it may be one of several "groups" whose function overall in the management and baking, is one is still unknown to me.

[Bux]

Bux, the decline in average bread standards is due to changing social patterns in which ordinary working people are no longer prepared to work the long hours for the low pay that prevailed among pre-industrial artisans.

If I didn't express these exact words, they are certainly a part of what I meant by the economies of the times. The reason young people aren't will to do this work for that income is that there are better jobs with better hours and better pay--or at least jobs that appear to be better and appear to offer better hours and better pay.

[Jonathan Day]

There is a name and logo posted on many boulangeries throughout France which now totally escapes me. (Tightening of the brain blood vessels!) I do not know if this name means their supplier, or a cooperative, or a franchise. I have seen this same name on the outside signs everywhere from Nice to Paris. Can anyone help?

Are you thinking of "baguette épi"? This is of course a specific kind of bread, but at least in the South is also a trademark used by a good number of bakeries. I'm not sure what it covers (a specific dough formulation, a franchise, or just the manufacturer of paper bags into which the bread gets put). I'll make some queries next time I am there.

[degusto]

Jonathan,

Ribeiro is an extremely lucrative business for everyone involved. There are few economies of scale to be found in small bakery chains. Well run bakeries that targets customers that are prepared to pay the prices you and me pay for the bread at Ribeiro are making serious cash. The big thing with bakeries like this is that the material cost is very low, no qualified labour is required, the needed space is relatively small and the technical lifetime of the equipment is longer than the financial lifetime.

What I meant with a tasting was a tasting of Ribeiro bread, but surely tasting other bread could be fun to. Ribeiro bread from different outlets can vary substantially. The least good I have tasted is the one on the road between the motorway exit and Antibes. The one in Cap d'Ail is the most irregular but when they get it right...

The bread outlet (the bakery is elsewhere) is just to the right in the Menton market. That is if you enter the the building from the entrance opposite the large fish monger Pêcheries de l'Océan, which by the way is a superb supplier of fish and live lobster if you can select from the stuff they have in the back.

[artisanbaker]

interesting thread. thanks everyone for posting. i have a couple of comments.

m. poujouran told me himself that parisians can't tell the difference between Paul and his bakery (generally speaking). so loufood, you're on for drinks...

there are many more people that eat industrial baguettes than artisanal baguettes. they just don't care.

there however a significant portion of the populaltion that search out quality bread, and may god bless them. Daniel Pennac supported the bakery I worked at, and I think it helps to have people of influence leading the communities to the simple artisan foods of quality.

m. kayser has so far created a fine "chain" of true artisan bakeries. remarkable feat imo.

[rgural]

There is a name and logo posted on many boulangeries throughout France which now totally escapes me.

Perhaps you are thinking of Bannette, which I believe is the most well known brand, Baguepi is another that has been already mentioned. It's my understanding that these are brands created and marketed by the big flour milling concerns. I believe that in some cases the mills play a role in the financing of the bakeries, and in return the bakeries are obligated to buy flour from the mills as well as execute certain breads according to the mills specifications. I've always assumed that this control does not extend over all of the bakeries products, so that these bakeries have more indepedence than a Paul or Pain Doree boutique which all sell the same thing, and have the same decor, which is dictated by a central command.

Roger

[Louisa Chu]

Roger, how do I explain the depots pains, white panini bread, etc? The former's just convenience - it's not that much cheaper. I'll have to check later but I think a baguette at Leader Price is only a few centimes cheaper than the good boulangerie across the street. But if you're in line on a Sunday afternoon and the mobscene's happening and everyone's about to close - well, then you just buy the crap baguette in front of you rather than have no baguette at all. The white panini bread? Because if you grease and grill just about any kind of bread with some decent stuff in between it's not half bad.

Bux, cooks - and especially boulangers - are the commonest of Frenchmen!

artisanbaker, I'm on for drinks anytime. And yes, I love Maison Kayser.

menton, yes, Banette - and Retrod'or is another new artisanal-type of baguette being made/sold in local boulangeries.

[menton1]

Perhaps you are thinking of Bannette

Yes, thank you Rgural!! Bannette was the one I was thinking of!! I have seen this logo on boulageries throughout france, I think the logo also contains a little wheat drawing--

So this Bannette is actually the supplier of the flour, that's all? I guess it means very little, other than some financial remuneration for displaying the name (?)

[robert brown]

I thought that a banette is a type of baguette that has pointed edges. My wife and I go out of our way to get the "ribeiro" of the Ribeiro in Cap d'Ail. There is also one in Nice a few blocks west of Av. Jean-Medecin next to the "Voie Rapide" that we visit after shopping at the Liberation market. Their "ribiero" is a big, heavy, yeasty baby much superior to what you find at the fancy Multari mini-chain. The somewhat similar "Pologne" at Paul in Cannes we also like. JD, Jellybean and I should do a blind tasting next time we are all in the area at the same time. I'm even willing to throw my glucose levels to the wind.

[menton1]

On another note about boulangeries, I've notice in the past several years that more and more of the boulangeries are now selling big varieties of sandwichs, little pizzas, and other types of snacking foods. I even saw a fancy one in Paris making Poulet Roti outside. What accounts for this "branching out" phenomenon, and how long has it been going on?

[Louisa Chu]

Here's the Banette website - it's more than just the flour supplier. As for sandwiches, etc. - diversification.

[Louisa Chu]

And here's the Paul site.

So the price for a baguette at Leader Price is 70 centimes; at my boulangerie across the street, 80 centimes for a regular/Banette baguette and 1E for a Retrod'or.

I'll check Maison Kayser and Poujauran in the next couple of days.