Absinthe: The Topic

[MaxH]

In general principle however, we seem to be in agreement.

Agreed! I looked at the wormwoodsociety.org site and it seems to me thoughtful with good graphics, photos and reviews of current products, good basic FAQ touching on main points of interest, and pointer to www.feeverte.net, a focal point of the growing online discussion of absinthe in recent years. (I have not been active on feeverte.net but had cordial exchanges with its founder.) The online search picture on absinthe was wholly different just four years ago, when I posted comments on amazon.com about Conrad’s classic US absinthe book (I think I still have the search results from then and earlier). I don’t recall feeverte.net in those days, and NIC public record shows the domain name registered later, December 17, 2001.

Relevant to the wormwoodsociety.org information (and this forum) are two details there that I noticed. First and narrowest concerns flavor of pre-ban absinthe.

Before Ted Breaux opened his Louisiana plant, his new absinthe venture received local publicity including 2002 articles in New Orleans by Mark Miester. One point was that the several herbal components in classic absinthe decay over time with different time constants or “half-lives,” so that a bottle of absinthe 100 years old has very different makeup from the original. Breaux, a chemist, undertook to “reverse-engineer” this process by accounting for the different decay rates and interactions, thus inferring a classic fresh absinthe formulation. (I mention this because the wormwoodsociety.org information includes comments on flavor of pre-ban absinthe re the bitterness issue, and does not seem to me to make clear that current tastes of pre-ban absinthe relate only very indirectly to the original.)

Second, Café Brûlot is rendered “Brulée” in the Web site. This flamed spiced coffee beverage (also by the way “a typical drink of Louisiana,” says the second French source below) has a long and colorful history. Just as one example, in the 1944 Warners classic film The Mask of Dimitrios with Peter Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet, in the “Belgrade 1926” sequence, when the naive civil servant Bulic is being led down the path of perdition by Dimitrios, the camera lingers meaningfully on a flaming cauldron of Café Brulot in a restaurant scene. For more general info in English, check the adjective “Brûlot” in the 1961 or 1988 Crown editions of Larousse Gastronomique. The former also includes, in classic early-Larousse tone, the sweeping judgment “True lovers of coffee and gastronomes do not like brûlot much; they prefer to drink the liqueur separately.” And the latter edition says, besides the coffee beverage, “Brûlot in France is a familiar term for a sugar lump soaked in alcohol, held in a spoon over a cup of coffee, and flamed before being dropped into the coffee.” Which leads to my favorite line in www.wormwoodsociety.org:

Friends Don't Let Friends Burn Absinthe.

Your health! -- Max (max@tdl.com)

[Hiram]

Things have indeed changed quite a bit in the last couple years. We know so much more now than we used to. Having access to early distiller's manuals and detailed recipes and protocols of the time has certainly helped a lot.

Kallisti founded the Fée Verte Absinthe House forum in 1997, but it was part of her other site. As it gained in popularity, she registered it separately and it went through a couple different incarnations. It is now owned by Oxygenée, who also runs the Virtual Absinthe Museum at oxygenee.com. I consider his site to be the most complete and comprehensive source of absinthe information on the web.

Re: the bitterness issue, I'm not sure which comment you're referring to, but if you point it out, maybe I can clarify it a bit. I'm very familiar with Ted's work and he participates in the discussions at Fée Verte. A search on his posts (tabreaux), or the terms "bitter" and "vintage" together, will yield a lot of useful information. Absinthe made strictly according to period recipes and protocols, using period equipment, is not very bitter at all. There is a refreshing astringency, but not the bitterness associated with undistilled wormwood macerate.

Thanks for pointing out the Brûlot reference in Larousse; cocktail names and histories can be a bit tangled.

Cheers!

[MaxH]

Things have indeed changed quite a bit in the last couple years. We know so much more now than we used to.

I'd agree with that statement with particular reference to product formulations and modern commercial products; also that many individuals know much more about absinthe now than they did a couple of years ago. A point of mine though is that the basics, the FAQ-type information, have been widely public for much longer, for anyone who cared to read them. Such seminal popular US sources as Conrad's 1989 book spurred renewed interest in absinthe, and paved the way for later activities like the Fee Verte forum and your own site (even if a random newcomer has no clue of this).

Re: the bitterness issue, I'm not sure which comment you're referring to, but if you point it out, maybe I can clarify it a bit.

"It is not as bitter as its century-old reputation suggests, and never has been, as can be attested by those who have tasted pre-ban absinthe." A tiny point: I support "not as bitter as its century-old reputation suggests" (that was a Breaux point in print, by 2002). But another of Breaux's messages, at that time, was that pre-ban absinthe, tasted today at age 100 or so, bore little relation to pre-ban absinthe freshly re-created. (Breaux's point, not mine.) I wondered therefore at pre-ban absinthe as a reference point for flavor, that's all. But here's something more important:

Thanks for pointing out the Brûlot reference in Larousse; cocktail names and histories can be a bit tangled.

In defense of Café Brûlot I didn't mean to suggest that Larousse Gastronomique was a necessary or unique source on the subject. Café Brûlot has been a regional US icon for generations, and an old-fashioned cliché of elegant dining (like silver toast racks or midnight Champagne suppers). It is all over the place in mainstream 20th-century US cookbooks. At a glance just now I found it in the US Regional Cook Book (1947), de Gouy's Gold Cook Book (1948, including many variations), the Gourmet Cookbook (1950), the Fannie Farmer Cookbook (1965), and Kenneth Davids' influential Coffee (1987, ISBN 0892862750, probably into a later edition by now). Any book on coffee probably has it. Thus I believe this is not one of those cases of cocktail names and histories being tangled. Café Brûlot probably belongs culturally to the world of coffee, rather than cocktails.

Your good health -- Max

[Hiram]

The pre-ban Edouard Pernod that I tasted last night was remarkably similar to the Jade Edouard repro of it. The Jade needs more coriander though.

[MaxH]

The pre-ban Edouard Pernod that I tasted last night was remarkably similar to the Jade Edouard repro of it.  The Jade needs more coriander though.

That's good data, and also contradicts Breaux's general comments in print that I cited above. If you know of enough such comparisons to present not just a testimonial anecdote but a representative picture on the point I raised of flavors of 100-year-old vs. reproduced absinthes, I think that would be important information that you might wish to consider for your FAQ. Against Beaux's principle that the contents of 100-year-old distillates evolves radically. (Otherwise, others acquainted with that principle may continue to wonder at the existing comment that I pointed out from your FAQ.) Just a thought.

Cheers -- Max

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The eccentricities of the Jura streams are vertical as well as horizontal. They have a disconcerting habit of suddenly disappearing into sinkholes ... and at last, when the ground drops away, of gushing forth again from the side of a cliff in what is known as a resurgence... This phenomenon was dramatized in 1901 when dwellers near the “source” of the Loue were delighted to discover that it seemed to have turned to absinthe -- weak in flavor, but nevertheless quite palatable. Two days before, the Pernod factory at Pontarlier, where absinthe was made, had burned down, and some 200,000 gallons of it had poured into the Doubs. It was therefore deduced that the Loue was a resurgence of part of the waters of the Doubs.

Waverly Root, The Food of France, Knopf, 1958 (LCC 57-10310)

[NulloModo]

Hmmm, so the distillation process actually removes a lot of the thujone content? I wonder if there is any commercially produced Absinthe that has had extra worm-wood steeped in it post-distillation to up the thujone content.

[slkinsey]

I participated in a very interesting absinthe tasting on Sunday night, along with a number of Society members and friends of the Society.

We tasted two absinthe substitutes Absente (55% abv) and Versinthe (45% abv), La Fée Parisian Absinthe (68% abv) Pernod Absinthe (68% abv), Jade's Nouvelle-Orléans Absinthe (68% abv), Jade's Absinthe Edouard (72% abv), Absinthe Kübler (53% abv), an experimental absinthe created by a boutique American distiller (at least 50% abv) and a vintage example of home infused "Absinthe Wondrich." We sampled them all diluted with water, but without sugar -- with the exception of the infused example, which we tried with much sugar.

Very interesting, to say the least. I think we all agreed that the Jade products were head and shoulders above the others in terms of interest and complexity, and we all agreed that the infused "absinthe" was barely drinkable.

I'll try to say more on this later, but for now will report that despite all the absinthe I consumed -- including the hefty dose of the presumably high-thujone infused version -- I did not experience any intoxication effects beyond what I would expect from alcohol. Not, I should add, that that is the point of drinking absinthe anyway.

NulloMondo, if there are any absinthes that are infused with grand wormwood post-distillation... trust me, you don't want them. The infused example was "force yourself to drink it" quality, and I have to assume that it was better than most of the infused stuff out there.

[Hiram]

What would be the point? Wormwood tastes very nasty, that's why they distill it. That's why they use petite wormwood for the coloring step instead of grand wormwood.

Read this, please. Absinthe is not a drug, it's liquor.

The thujone thing is bullshit. Forget about the thujone. It was used in the past to destroy absinthe's reputation and is used now to seperate fools from their money.

Thujone in high enough dosages to get a pronounced effect is poisonous, and not in a fun way, but in a kidney failure and death way. The pronounced effect is nothing you would want recreationally: nausea, vomiting, convulsions, foaming at the mouth and so on.

As I said above:

"It is popular to say that the old, pre-ban absinthes were stronger and higher in thujone that the modern ones, but the indredients in the best made absinthes today are precisely the same in strength and recipe as the pre-ban absinthes. Modern tests show that neither these nor samples of pre-ban absinthe contain any more than trace amounts of thujone. All of the traditional ingredients of absinthe contribute to the "effect" not just the wormwood."

[Olie]

Do you have a website? To post as links?

←

Greeting,

Hopefully you checked out the site and looked for the Absinto. If you'd like to add my link on your site, you are most welcome. and thank you.

[Hiram]

I still don't understand why you are calling this product absinthe if there's no absinthe in it.

[Olie]

Salutations,

Sorry for my late return to this topic... Some amazing information I have learned thanks to these posts from Hiram, MaxH & slkinsey.

Allow me to comment to Hiram (great posts!)

"Absinthe" is merely the French word for Grand Wormwood, Artemisia absinthium.  You can't take out the main ingredient, which gives the drink its name, and still call it absinthe; that's misleading.

Olie: I know that in the past Camargo has produced what was sold as a traditional absinthe, including wormwood; is this the same product, minus the wormwood?  According to the information given on the website, this may be a pleasant and flavorful beverage, a pastis even, but it is not absinthe.

I'd also like to comment on the tired old "sex, drugs and creativity" line included on your site:

Regarding Absinto Camargo - it is really a 'liqueur' - no where on the bottle is it refered to as Absinthe. I refer to it as an Absinthe type product. For consumer's we call it a Brazilian Absinthe - I stand corrected in purity.

Absinto Camargo has a product available in Brazil and Europe (different label & btl) that is made with artemesia absinthium. We had to change the product for the American market (it still took me 9 month to get approvals to import), the changes to the original product are few, with the addition of mint, coloring (to make it more vibrant) and sugar content. And, no one 'trips' from Thujone - you are all correct - not that some people have not tried...

I am sorry that you think my tag line in the web site is tired. Sex, sells - Drugs, can be useful (not illegal, ofcourse) - and creativity, is essential... I think I will keep it for now. Plus, I am targeting top mixologists and consumers 25-35. I want them to have fun with the product...

The makers of Absinto Camargo and myself have worked hard to bring a superior liqueur to the market. It brings a great twist to cocktails - you must be carefull to drink it straight or over the ice, very strong... After all this thinking - I need an amazing cocktail, try these:

THE GREEN FAIRY

By John Mautone - Dylan Prime, NY www.dylanprime.com

1 1/2 oz Absinto Camargo

2 oz Midori Melon Liqueur

1 oz fresh lime juice

1/2 pineapple juice

1/2 oz simple syrup

1 oz Johnny Walker Black

Combine ingredients in a shaker, shake well and strain into a chilled martini glass

OR

GREEN FAIRY MOJITO

Jacques Bezuidenhout, San Francisco, California

1 1/2 oz Beleza Pura Super Premium Cachaça

1 oz Absinto Camargo

8-10 mint leaves

Juice of a whole lime.

simple syrup

Splash of soda

Muddle mint, lime juice and simple syrup. Add Beleza Pura and Absinto. Add a rocks glass full of crushed ice. Stir and add soda. Serve in a tall glass. Garnish with a mint sprig.

I wish you all Absinthium dreams (sorry I missed the tasting w/slkinsey&pals)

[Hiram]

I am sorry that you think my tag line in the web site is tired. Sex, sells - Drugs, can be useful (not illegal, ofcourse) - and creativity, is essential... I think I will keep it for now.

My objection to this form of marketing is that it relies upon and reinforces the false notions that most people have about absinthe. Those nearly universal false notions may be what sells to the majority of young drinkers, but they are also what is keeping real absinthe off the shelves in the US.

I take this so personally because I spend a lot of time and energy trying to educate people and dispel those myths. I am of the opinion that an authentic quality product can be successfully marketed based on its own merits without resorting to hints of increased sexual prowess and/or success. I think that if absinthe's reputation can be cleaned up, everyone will be the happier for it - including you.

I do not fault you for trying to bring what may very well be a good product to the American market, but I believe you may be shooting yourself in the foot by reinforcing the misperceptions our government has about absinthe.

I am always interested in products to recommend to those who prefer not to risk importing real absinthe and currently Absente is the only decent option, besides Arak. I'd welcome a private correspondence if you're so inclined: hiram@wormwoodsociety.org.

[Olie]

I take this so personally because I spend a lot of time and energy trying to educate people and dispel those myths. I think that if absinthe's reputation can be cleaned up, everyone will be the happier for it - including you.

... government has about absinthe.

←

Hiram

I will also contact you personally... I appreciate your conviction to Absinthe as a historic liqueur. When I started to investigate the importation of this product, I considered lobbying for the change to accept artemisia absinthium as GRAS. I quickly learned what it would take...$$$ Hopefully someday I can contribute to make this happen. For now, I am a little guy. My marketing effort will play with the rich history of Absinthe, as Absente before me. I do not beleive that my efforts to market my product will unintentionally influence the TTB regarding hallucinations from alcoholic beverages. As that is a myth... I would like nothing more than to bring in the original recipe.

Cheers

[Hiram]

I'll look forward to hearing from you. I'm going to be fairly busy for the remainder of the weekend, so it may be a few days before I can respond.

Cheers,

- Hiram

[anzu]

My brother (bless him ) just gave me a bottle of absinthe.

Does anyone ever serve it with any food (nibble-type things, not meals)? If so, what?

Incidentally, might the trend of lighting a sugar cube over it (don't worry, I'm not about to do this myself) have perhaps been derived from or related to the German Feuerzangenbowle? (the link is in German). This is a Christmas-time punch made with spiced red wine and rum, in which lump sugar is suspended over the wine, drizzled with rum, then set alight. It became widespread after a 1944 film of the same name, but has been around for 200 years, at the very least.

A similar drink is also called Krambambuli, and is/was also part of the drinking rituals of German university students. One link on this, again in German, here.

[slkinsey]

Lighting alcohol soaked sugar cubes and ladles of alcohol and orange/lemon shells filled with alcohol, and punchbowls, etc. is something that people have been doing for a long, long time in many cultures.

[Hiram]

My brother (bless him  ) just gave me a bottle of absinthe.

Does anyone ever serve it with any food (nibble-type things, not meals)? If so, what?

Technically, absinthe is an aperitif and would be best before meals, perhaps with some sort of light canapé. I can attest to its effectiveness there. It really perks up the appetite and stimulates the palate - in moderation and properly diluted. Otherwise the anise overpowers your palate and numbs your tongue. Light cheeses and maybe fruit, depending on the absinthe. I found that good ripe strawberries go very well with absinthes such as Kübler or François Guy, but less so with a clandestine with greater herbal complexity and bitterness.

It's not too good with meals in my opinion, unless perhaps in the case of heavy mediterranean or middle eastern dishes.

Incidentally, might the trend of lighting a sugar cube over it (don't worry, I'm not about to do this myself) have perhaps been derived from or related to the German Feuerzangenbowle?

Anything is possible, but considering that flaming absinthe wasn't done until the 1990's, and that it started in rock clubs in Prague, it's pretty doubtful. It is most likely an extension of the frat-boy flaming shot type ritual.

What did he get you?

Edited August 9, 2005 by Hiram (log)

[bacchant036]

when absinthe was re-introduced into the uk market the reps actually made a song and dance of getting everybody to flame it, and that was for the first absinthe's back on the market, which were all czech, this made me think it was a czech thing, although admittedly having been to prague a couple of times i've never seen it served like that over there (maybe i'm just going to the wrong rock clubs). later when we started getting french absinthes, pernod etc, we got a new wave of absinthe education, the absinthe drip, frappe's and cocktails.

i find the best accompaniment to absinthe is a pretty girl, a backgammon set and a hot day, could quite happily wile away a whole summer doing this! oh, or a bourbon sazerac.

[anzu]

What did he get you?

←

He has just been holidaying in Russia, and brought me Xenta.

I haven't tasted it yet ('summer' here at the moment is so cold that I am considering turning the central heating back on, and have no desire to drink anything chilled, no matter how novel it may be to me).

Is it actually Russian? I was looking at the minimal information on the bottle, as well as trying to Google for information, and am more confused than I was at the outset. On the bottle they claim it's made according to the original recipe, and somewhere on the web I read that Xenta was originally produced in Spain and then they recently switched production to Russia. Somewhere else they said essentially the same thing, but claimed it was originally produced in Italy. The company that is actually behind the product is legally based in Luxemburg....

If it is actually swill, and mouthwash would taste better, please say so gently, as it was given as a gift and in good faith.

[Hiram]

Here is their web site. You may be less than pleased by it. Unfortunately, despite their claims of being "the only true descendent" and being a "world leader and number 1 in many European markets" it's a fairly obscure brand. The wormwood twigs in the bottle don't bode well, either.

He certainly can't be blamed. Ninety percent or more of everything on the market is fake and substandard; unless you really do your homework, it's unlikely that you'll come up with something decent. After all, it's quite attractively packaged.

[HelDC]

So, for the planned new year's party, we intend to get a bottle (or three) of absinthe (each of the 3 varieties offered by Jade Liqueurs quite probably). However, no one who will be at the party is a heavy drinker, and that combined with the fact that absinthe has such a high alcohol content, means there will probably be some if not quite a bit of absinthe left over. Ideally, I'd like to store whatever is left over for about 6 weeks after New Year's, until an event in mid February. Now, I know absinthe oxidizes like wine, however I've also read that higher alcohol slows oxidization, and a friend has a bottle of Czech absinthe which they say they opened well over a year ago, have yet to finish, and think still tastes the same as it did when opened.

So, does anyone have any experience with storing opened absinthe? Tips for how best to keep it, recommendations on how long it keeps well, suggestions as to what might make it last longer once opened? The general opinion I've found on this forum by googling seems to be that Private Preserve wine preserver spray works decently for wine, so I was thinking I'd combine that and storing the leftover absinthe in the fridge. Or freezer? Would putting it in the freezer be better?

So, what do people think, would my current plan make the leftover absinthe last 6 weeks without too much change? Is absinthe in fact not especially susceptible to oxidization and it'd be unlikely anyone would notice any difference in the absinthe after 6 weeks, regardless of steps taken? Does my plan for keeping it suck and someone has a better suggestion? Is there no chance of keeping opened absinthe for 6 weeks without significant taste change and I should just try and avoid opening all three bottles at new year's?

Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated! I've learned all sorts of things from these forums, and this is the first time I've ever had a question that I couldn't find already having been addressed here. I'm hoping the folks here will be able to offer as much help on this as they seem to be capable of giving on everything else!

Edited December 8, 2005 by HelDC (log)

[slkinsey]

If you're talking about 6 weeks, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Just put the corks back in the bottles.

[WoBuJiDao]

The absinthe I've had has been 151 proof...at that proof you could just as easily wait until New Year's 2007 party, or 2017, and there'd be no real difference.

[eje]

I was reading this wired article recently, and it claims, "absinthe oxidizes like wine once the bottle is open." At that proof, it doesn't really make sense to me either.

The only thing I can think of, comes from the manufacturing procedure, where I believe he states the absinthe distillate is infused (macerated?) with wormwood post distillation. Possibly, the character from that second infusion evaporates with age after opening.

[Jmahl]

In the freezer all metabolic processes come almost to a stop. Keeping it there it will probable outlast the "Ice Man."