Corporate America - Can it be stopped?

[jhlurie]

Who knew that a basic meat had so much to say? Good topic, pork, within the "food discussion only" lines which Fat Guy has drawn for us, of course.

To some degree we hash out a topic like this out every few months (do an advanced search on threads with "Fast Food" in the title), but I like the angle here on Supermarkets and their role in the process. And going even a step further, the food conglomerates.

I mean, would the Applebee's and BK's have such a hold if RJR/Nabisco and Beatrice hadn't done such a job on us first? "Convenience" is a huge lure.

[Fat Guy]

Or maybe their customers suck, fresco! There's no shortage of disillusioned produce managers out there who tried to bring in better stuff only to find that, even when placed side-by-side, consumers would rather by crap gargantuan and cosmetically flawless Red "Delicious" apples from Antarctica for 69 cents a pound than pay $1.29 per pound for totally superior-tasting but funny-looking little Macs. I've had the discussion five or six times with supermarket people: "We tried to bring in better stuff; they just kept buying the same old shit. So what are we supposed to do? Let it rot?" That's why the cultural component of the equation is so important: society needs to create the preconditions for consumers to even be willing to listen to the argument that $1.29 for an ugly apple is a better deal than 69 cents a pound for a pretty one. Then the stores will happily make that argument on glossy posters and through taste tests and whatever, because they'd love nothing more than to have people buy the more expensive apples, especially if the markup is higher. They just don't want to be left holding the bag with a bunch of expensive apples that don't sell.

[fresco]

Or maybe their marketing sucks. It's probably not enough to simply bring in a bunch of stuff that produce managers judge to be superior to the usual junk. Proctor and Gamble pays hundreds of millions to tell people why Tide or Cheer meets people's needs better than any other detergent.

I can't recall anyone ever spending a nickel (or even designing a shelf talker) to tell me why Northern Spy apples beat the shit out of Golden Delicious. And yet, they do.

[hjshorter]

I can't recall anyone ever spending a nickel (or even designing a shelf talker) to tell me why Northern Spy apples beat the shit out of Golden Delicious. And yet, they do.

What do you think of the Whole Foods practice of offering samples? It's easier to spend $1.49 on apples if you can have a slice and taste how superior they are. (Or a sample of the house made sausages, or bread, or freshly squeezed juice, etc.)

[fresco]

The big supermarket chains would do well to learn some lessons froom Whole Foods. Wouldn't it be a treat to be offered, say, a slice of Korean pear and a sliver of cheese rather than the unidentifiable and inedible frozen finger foods with which they annoy people now?

[guajolote]

2 large american grocery chains are owned by european companies; the dutch company royal ahold owns giant and stop and shop (as well as the peapod grocery delivery company), and ALDI is a french company i believe.

some of these big corporations also deliver stylish kitchenware for a great price, target and ikea come to mind immediately.

[jhlurie]

I can't recall anyone ever spending a nickel (or even designing a shelf talker) to tell me why Northern Spy apples beat the shit out of Golden Delicious. And yet, they do.

Well, sometimes the supermarkets DO use the "hey, it's the hot new apple" approach. I've seen this kind of marketing this past year for the Honeycrisp apple, and I know I've seen it for other "new" varieites in the past. It happens.

[Mayhaw Man]

Or maybe their customers suck, fresco! That's why the cultural component of the equation is so important: society needs to create the preconditions for consumers to even be willing to listen to the argument that $1.29 for an ugly apple is a better deal than 69 cents a pound for a pretty one. Then the stores will happily make that argument on glossy posters and through taste tests and whatever, because they'd love nothing more than to have people buy the more expensive apples, especially if the markup is higher. They just don't want to be left holding the bag with a bunch of expensive apples that don't sell.

This has improved, I think, in most markets in the last couple of years. Due at least in part, as you said above, to the "middle brow" appeal of the Food Network. Many people who are watching "Emeril clown around and the best of" may, in all liklihood, have had their first exposure to something besides Antarctic Red Delicious Apples (mmmm, where do you get those ) on one of those programs. It does serve a purpose, even if it is generally derided by many here and useless to many of us who have traveled AND can cook.

And you are right about store managers not wanting to sit on stuff because people are buying the same old stuff, but I think that it is incumbent on those of us who do want something better and more easily available to make sure that we are buying the stuff and telling others about what we are buying and why.

I live in the most affluent parish in Louisiana. That being said it is mostly rural and there is a huge and visible gap between the haves and the have nots (this is not liberal perspective peeking through, it is born out in every kind of demographic that anyone cares to tee up). One grocery in particular stands out here as someplace that is trying and sometimes failing and sometimes hitting a big one out of the park. It is a small, independent and just a few years ago I think that it could have fairly been described as a "ghetto grocery". After Wal Mart killed our local Delchamp's and Winn Dixie the owner of this store saw an opportunity to do two things-1) sell more groceries due to decreased competition because he is a long way from Wal Mart and convenient to many who were being forced to go there due to store closures 2) Put in some interesting items that cost a little more, but are much more interesting than not only what he had previously been carrying, but make a little more money per item because they were unique to his market.

The outcome of this has been amazing. While his produce is still not always the best, his non perishable goods are diverse and wonderful considering he is in the middle of a small town. He has his own meat cutters, cuts and packs his own meat and makes fresh sausage (I am having some tonight in Gumbo) and the guys in the meat market will do virtually anything you ask them to with a smile and usually throw in a little lagniappe if you smile and act appreciative. No water, no polysorbate. Just carcasses coming in and nicely cut and fairly packaged meat going out the door.

And this is not to say that he has run off his former (primarily low income/working class) clientele. He still does the "fill your freezer" specials that are so popular in the South (do they do that anywhere else? mixed meat chicken, pork, beef, etc. in various combos for a set price) and they make run of the mill po boys that, while middle of the road in flavor, are tremendous. A great value. He cashes checks and has the setup to pay all of the various utilities, money orders, wire transfers, etc.

It is kind of fun to go in there and see lunch ladies picking up swell olives and great wine standing in line with some nursery guy (nurseries are huge in this part of the state) with clippers hanging out of his pocket buying a big old roast beef po boy and a Barq's.

It can be done, and some grocers are doing it. But the one's who are invariably going to lose out are the middle of the road chains. Winn Dixie, Albertson's, Delchamps, etc. don't have a chance. They can certainly load up the produce section but what about local specialty items (a great example here is creole creme cheese. Everybody eats it and none of the big chains carry it) and real meat, not some stuff packaged with pride at Remote Meat Packing Plant #38, but stuff cut by butchers with bloody aprons who carry the same meat they cut out to the meat case and tell customers "this packiage is the best in the pile" with a smile and a wink. Knowing that it might have been slightly misweighed or that it is totally prime and mismarked. Those middle level chains are too top heavy, cumbersome, and spread out to take on Wal Mart and they will never have the appeal of a small, but really well run grocery.

After rereading this, I think that the key to getting people to shop better is to make sure that when they decide to stop somewhere on the way home from work, instead of going to Wal Mart, that they be treated fairly. I will pay a little more everytime knowing that I am getting something of more value that if I went the convenience route and headed over to Megelomart (which in fact, for me, is not convenient and 25 minutes away). Some produce guy needs to lean over, when he sees mom reaching for the big, shiny Antarctic apples and say, " Excuse me ma'am, but these apples right here are pretty much the same price and taste about a million times better". This woman might just buy the apples and if she likes them, stop in one more time and skip Wal Mart, etc., etc., etc.

[fresco]

2 large american grocery chains are owned by european companies; the dutch company royal ahold owns giant and stop and shop (as well as the peapod grocery delivery company), and ALDI is a french company i believe.

some of these big corporations also deliver stylish kitchenware for a great price, target and ikea come to mind immediately.

Funny you should mention Ikea. It is huge and very mainstream in Canada (you line up to get into any of their stores, pretty well). Their stuff is stylish, not complete junk, and inexpensive. The food in their restaurants is a real draw.

But I'm told that the corporate expectation is that it will never be mainstream in the US--and their advertising and marketing is pitched in the same way as, say, the famous Volkswagen Beetle ads--to a sort of significant fringe market.

[Nick]

It's unfortunate that so many, living so closely together can only find their food at a corporate trough.

[guajolote]

He still does the "fill your freezer" specials that are so popular in the South (do they do that anywhere else? mixed meat chicken, pork, beef, etc. in various combos for a set price)

yes, they are very popular in chicago, especially at the meat markets that cater to blacks.

[pork]

One of my other favorite rants is zoning laws. I think it relates, but really only in suburbia. Zoning laws aren't popular in the country, and they're not too applicable in cities, where business and residential mix quite a bit.

I think that the reason so many restaurants fail is the high rents they have to pay to even get a cubicle in the local stripmall. Many other local businesses would be created if people were allowed to hang a shingle in front of their house. I know it pisses me off that I have to get in my truck and drive if I even need so much as a crust of bread. Why can't the corner store come [back] to suburbia?

Why: Because only rich people go to zoning board meetings, and only rich people sit on the boards. They're rich because they own the prime central real estate, and they don't want some shithead selling fresh batards out of their house and competing with the meglomart that's paying them exorbitant rents.

I'm going to go to the next one in my neighborhood and see if there's an easy way to throw a wrench into the works.

[guajolote]

Many other local businesses would be created if people were allowed to hang a shingle in front of their house.

you may think different if your neighbor decides to open a live poultry store.

[fresco]

I respectfully disagree. The real urban nightmares can be traced back to a lack of zoning and bylaw control. These are the things that, for instance, prevent someone from putting a 40-storey building right next to your house in an otherwise solidly single family residential neighborhood.

[Nick]

Many other local businesses would be created if people were allowed to hang a shingle in front of their house.

you may think different if your neighbor decides to open a live poultry store.

I guess none of us would want that right next door, but it would be nice if live poultry stores made a comeback. Back in the early 1900's my father's folks lived in Boston and my Danish grandmother would go to get a chicken, pick out the one she wanted, and it would be killed, feathered, and gutted. Nothing like a good fresh chicken to take home.

[fresco]

It was possible into the early 1980s in Toronto to go to Kensington Market, point to the live chicken, duck or turkey of your choice and wait as it was turned into the makings of dinner. Then the animal rights people got into it. Why, can you tell me, is it more humane to slaughter animals outside city limits?

[Nick]

It was possible into the early 1980s in Toronto to go to Kensington Market, point to the  live chicken, duck or turkey of your choice and wait as it was turned into the makings of dinner. Then the animal rights people got into it. Why, can you tell me, is it more humane to slaughter animals outside city limits?

Fresco, we live in a society that has lost its way.

[jo-mel]

The big supermarket chains would do well to learn some lessons froom Whole Foods. Wouldn't it be a treat to be offered, say, a slice of Korean pear and a sliver of cheese rather than the unidentifiable and inedible frozen  finger foods with which they annoy people now?

Some of the supermarkets have learned a lesson from Fresh Field/Whole Foods in my area. When Fresh Fields moved in, all of a sudden you could find organic produce sections in the larger markets. This extends to other packaged products as well.

Fresh Fields, at one time, had so many samples of breads out, that you could make a meal of it. It is less so now with Whole Foods, but the samples are still there. I prefer the samples without a monitor, with a dish of toothpicks and a discount coupon to dole out. The supermarkets that do this, turn me off. I prefer to taste and make a decision on my own -- as they allow in Whole Foods. And yes--- having samples of lesser-known foods might awaken palates who buy the same old, same old.

The mega -markets do have one positive feature. The room to add things you would not normally have in a smaller market. Case in point, a Shop Rite frozenfood section had tiny Maine blueberries. I was so astonished that I bought half a dozen packages and pigged out on blueberry sauce and muffins. I've never seen them anywhere else, not even in the smaller Shop Rites.

Supply and demand will determine what sells. Just as an example, look at the increase in lo-carb products, and the increasing labels with "no added sugar" prominently displayed.

The deli sections have enlarged to accommodate busy people, and large supermarkets have both checkers and baggers to get you out of the store quicker.

I'd heard that many shopping malls are losing customers who are returning to their own towns for shopping. Don't know if this is a trend, but the lack of assistance from lack of store help, on the floors of department stores is a turn down. Some people prefer the one on one assistance you get in the smaller stores. Maybe they should get a clue from the food stores who try to please everybody. In a couple of the supermarkets, the fish men and I are almost on a first name basis. There always seems to be someone on hand when you need help. I may frown on what the person next to me has in her cart, but I like the fact that there is a choice. The little neighborhood store can't do this.

[ExtraMSG]

One thing to recognize is that much of the basis for the disdain of these chains is aesthetic. It often has little to do with anything about them truly being better or worse morally, providing a better or worse product, or being better or worse for humanity, the environment, etc.

It's about them being ugly (to you). Pork, I think your original post is saturated with this hatred via aesthetics more than something objective or pragmatic. It reminds me of the issue with pro sports stadiums being named American Airlines or FedEx instead of after some politician or rich donor. It's not primarily about function or economics or health or whatever, it's about it not being pretty.

Which is fine. I make these same fine distinctions all the time. I prefer Christmas shopping, eg, in little boutiques with what appear to be more unique gifts. (It's often not the case with these items being imports from Thailand or Mexico that if you were to go there you'd see available from any vendor for 1/1000th the price you're paying at these boutiques which share similar inventories with boutiques throughout the country.)

But recognize it's aesthetic. It's not self-evident at all. It's your preference, what appeals to you, as beautiful or ugly.

[megc]

All over my part of America (rural South, where Wal Mart started) Wal Mart has killed downtowns and put local people out of business. But, remember, Wal Mart only (at least initially, when people still had a choice between local and national) provided the opportunity. Local  people were the ones not choosing to shop with their old friends the local shopkeepers. Towns could have stood up and said "Hell no, we're not putting our old neighbors and friends out of business" but they did not. Apparently in our consumer society the pocketbook outweighs the heft of loyalty.

That, in my opinion, is how it started.

Some people have fought against Wal Mart and won. Whole communties have gone up in arms and driven the bastards out. For instance, in Maine the Penobscot Bay Area Citizens group fought off a proposal for the building of a Super Wal Mart (I can't even imagine what this would be like) overlooking their bay on Hwy 1. According to their website, "The company would have covered more than 21 acres of Rockland's remaining coastal forests with a 186,000 square foot monolith surrounded by 914 parking spaces."

Amazing.

I don't shop at Wal Mart, nor will I. I feel like that place would just be a waste of my time.

When I lived in Berkeley, I got so frustrated with the Safeway, that I abandoned them for Andronicos, a local chain of grocery stores in the Bay Area. It was the best decision. Plus I didn't have to drive to go there, and they had bike parking in the back. Their produce, cheese, bread, deli, and wine selection was fabulous, and that's just to start. I miss that place, among other things in Berkeley.

[Nick]

Some people have fought against Wal Mart and won.  Whole communties have gone up in arms and driven the bastards out.  For instance, in Maine the Penobscot Bay Area Citizens group fought off a proposal for the building of a Super Wal Mart (I can't even imagine what this would be like) overlooking their bay on Hwy 1.  According to their website, "The company would have covered more than 21 acres of Rockland's remaining coastal forests with a 186,000 square foot monolith surrounded by 914 parking spaces."

Amazing.

Yeah, a "super" Walmart didn't make it in Rockland, but a Home Depot has. It's up high to the west of Rt.1 and will probably become a navigational aid to summer mariners on Penobscot bay.

[Mayhaw Man]

[some people have fought against Wal Mart and won. Whole communties have gone up in arms and driven the bastards out. For instance, in Maine the Penobscot Bay Area Citizens group fought off a proposal for the building of a Super Wal Mart (I can't even imagine what this would be like) overlooking their bay on Hwy 1. According to their website, "The company would have covered more than 21 acres of Rockland's remaining coastal forests with a 186,000 square foot monolith surrounded by 914 parking spaces."

Amazing.

I don't shop at Wal Mart, nor will I. I feel like that place would just be a waste of my time.

When I lived in Berkeley, I got so frustrated with the Safeway, that I abandoned them for Andronicos, a local chain of grocery stores in the Bay Area. It was the best decision. Plus I didn't have to drive to go there, and they had bike parking in the back. Their produce, cheese, bread, deli, and wine selection was fabulous, and that's just to start. I miss that place, among other things in Berkeley.

I would like to point out that the well organized Wal Mart haters in Maine and elsewhere had the benefit of watching hundreds of small downtowns go down the tubes. While I am glad for them, it doesn't take much organization to zone something out if the population doesn't want it. The towns that Wal Mart destroyed, in many cases, let the big wooden horse in the gate and welcomed it to town. They had no clue what lay inside, just waiting to appear when they weren't looking.

My point is that in most cases the population does want choices like Wally World. They have let their small town stores go down the tube and it (as has been pointed out here by several people) was and is not all about money. Some of it is about choice. In many cases Wally World brought a much more diverse selection of goods to town than what had been offered for the last 50 years at Western Auto, Piggly Wiggly, and Seligman's Dept Store .

What needs to change first in order to ever see change in the Megelomart world is personal taste. When personal taste changes, so will personal shopping habits. When that happens, something has got to give. Either Wal Mart will start selling the best beef in town or people will buy it elsewhere. Ditto Produce. Ditto Cheese. Ditto every damn thing.

I will be the first to admit, EMSG, that I have huge political problems with Wal Mart. Mainly involving an economic cycle that ultimately ends in the largest company in the world not paying it's workers enough to shop in it's own stores.

But that is not what we are talking about here. This is about food and shopping and grocery stores and the people who shop in them (us) and why.

[project]

At first glance, it is bizarre: The US is the richest country in the world but doesn't eat very well. In the grocery stores, restaurants, and home kitchens, the skills and results are inferior to some countries with less wealth.

Consider cheese: The dairy industry in Europe went for nearly all its history without refrigerated long distance transportation. So, there were many local cheese factories. Since there is no end to different ways to make cheese, many of the cheeses made were quite different. After a few hundred years of this, setting aside some of the likely really awful cheese, some of the best cheese was terrific stuff.

My father grew up in a dairy farming region of western New York State and explained Kraft cheese this way: In the US, the local cheese factories didn't have long to operate before long distance refrigerated transportation was available. Then Kraft, Borden's, etc., came through and bought up all the milk and shipped it to a few central plants. The resulting cheese was likely better than the worst of Europe but less good than the best of Europe and certainly lacked variety.

Perhaps we can generalize from cheese: For many of the problems in the US described here, perhaps one key is the collection of large organizations. So, for 'US culture', as for cheese, we got large organizations that covered the US and gave us a relatively uniform culture before there was time for locally developed culture to take root.

And now in part we are stuck: The US public is short on culture, and the large organizations selling US 'pop' culture so dominate that we aren't developing the culture we should. Such 'pop' culture includes much of food, music, movies, entertainment TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, fashion, toys, and more.

Whatever adults think of 'pop' culture, it is fairly effective on young people, and not just in the US. Apparently our 'pop' culture can be spread to Europe, etc. just by focusing on the young people. Then in two generations or so, maybe many fewer people in Europe will know about truffles, violins, sculpture, etc.

Hopefully the Internet is a source of improvement: Here an audience with low density (persons per square mile) can still add to a significantly large total number, essentially not possible before. So, eGullet is an example.

As eGullet and the rest of the Internet provide more information about food, people will be more critical shoppers in the grocery stores.

I am hoping that with eGullet I will learn how to make use of what the stores already have that I don't know how to use well.

But US culture is not as uniform as McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and NBC would make it appear: Individuals are free to turn off network TV, decline to listen to 'pop' music, and look for grocery stores with better products, and some people do these things. People are free to search for information on Google, order information from Amazon, come to eGullet, order foods over the Internet from very high quality suppliers, and concentrate on growing culturally as well as economically, and some people in the US are doing these things.

Edited December 8, 2003 by project (log)

[Jonathan Day]

As FG says, it's not all paradise here in Europe.

French super and hypermarkets are generally better, in quality and range than any but shops like Andronico's or Treasure Island in the US. Same is true for the more upmarket British supermarkets (Waitrose and Sainsbury's, as opposed to, say, Tesco and Asda). Yet none of these is as good as the artisanal specialists: butchers, cheesemongers, bakers, wine shops, etc.

For those whose goal is fine food, I suspect that the differentiating factor is not price but convenience. Perhaps those who decide to buy foie gras or carnaroli rice will shop on price, but I doubt it: the issue with these products is often more one of access and quality than selling price. What the supermarkets offer is convenience. In France I live near a superb fruit, vegetable and cheese vendor; a good butcher; a very good fishmonger and a very good baker. It still takes a long time to move from store to store, wait in queues, drag things to the car, move on to the next store. When time is pressed, the supermarket wins hands down. And unlike the artisanal shops, the supermarkets stay open all day, without the break from 1300 to 1630, and many are open on Mondays.

Same holds in London: the local shopping street has everything I could want to prepare a fine dinner, but it takes longer to get it. In a pinch, a quick trip to the supermarket is easier. And the supermarkets are open later, and on Sunday.

The scarce commodity and deciding factor in all of this may be time, not money. Perhaps this should not be the case, and perhaps the previous generation of Europeans was better off with their long vacations, mid-day breaks and generally more slow-paced life. Today's Europeans are working to a faster beat, with longer daily hours, shorter holidays, cell phones everywhere, and a trend toward a "24 by 7" availability. Hence the appeal of supermarkets, prepared foods, microwave ovens.

I'm not saying, to be clear, that this should be the case, or that it represents an improvement.

[Mayhaw Man]

The scarce commodity and deciding factor in all of this may be time, not money. Perhaps this should not be the case, and perhaps the previous generation of Europeans was better off with their long vacations, mid-day breaks and generally more slow-paced life. Today's Europeans are working to a faster beat, with longer daily hours, shorter holidays, cell phones everywhere, and a trend toward a "24 by 7" availability. Hence the appeal of supermarkets, prepared foods, microwave ovens.

I believe that you have hit on the actual crux of the problem here in the United States. The rule these days, not the exception, is a household where both parents work. Children, once they are old enough to participate, are involved in after school activities that often take the parents straight from work to some kind of pickup and/or organizational meeting several days a week and this leaves little time for the preperation of good food.

Some people go to great effort to cook fresh, good food that is interesting to eat and healthy for the family (me), but it does, in fact, require much extra effort and is often impossible in the social situations that families find themselves in these days. This means, I think, that there will need to be some basic social change before the change back to well made foods prepared at home win out over garbage prepared in fast food and semi fast food restaurants. People will need to decide what is important. Do they really want or need a new car, a house larger than they need, or less work and time to relax and provide for their families in some way other than monetary/material support?

The other part of this irony is that the cost for four people to eat at a BK is about $20 (it might be more. but I don't actually do it). For twenty bucks a family could have a rooasted hen, onion risotto, steamed zucchinni and brocolli, with decent bread and something simple for dessert, like roasted pears or peaches . The leftover chicken can be used to prepare lunches the next day as could the bread, lowering the cost of the meal even further. The time of preperation is about 1 1/2 hours and unless you happen to live next door to a BK this is not much longer than it will take you to round up the family and haul them off to the burger joint, given the traffic situations in most suburban areas.

Ultimately one of the bigger parts of this issue here in the US is consumerism. Big houses, big cars, swell electronics, are all very nice but require lots of income and in order to get the income to pay for these things people find themselves working longer hours and spending less time at home (which means that they have less time to enjoy the things that they are working for in the first place, not the least of which is time with their families).

There is no easy answer and it only gets tougher with the declining middle class wage in this country (which ironically is being driven by Wal Mart, the largest employer in the US, a company which manufactures nothing, making our largest employer technically a service employer) and an apparent rise in the number of hours worked per employee (the productivity rating that pleases so many investors and displeases so many workers). It will all eventually come to personal choice. Do consumers buy new stuff constantly or do the decide that thier house is big enough and that they can drive their car 6 or seven years instead of 3? Seemingly small choices like this can give families much more time to spend at home buying and preparing good food and eating it together.

I hope more families make some of these choices in the near future. We would all be better off for it.