Blue Hill (NYC)

[Simon Majumdar]

after the grief I got from my review of this place way back when it is interesting to see that the same issues I raised keep cropping up

Lighting too low

Service hit & miss ( in my case efficient but charmless )

tables too close together

Food fine but hardly revelatory

There are so many places in NY, I find it hard to see why this place gets such coverage apart from the fact that MA seemed like a very nice guy and probably deserves all the success he can get.

S

[Wilfrid]

Do I hear a waltz?

Someone made a comment that made sense, although whether it was on the site somewhere on in "real life" I can't recall. There really isn't anywhere else in New York - except maybe Union Pacific - doing the kind of cautiously innovative cooking that Blue Hill is doing. i think that's why people find it worthy of remark.

(Hmm, I think this might have been on the thread about whether the 4 stars are resting on their laurels).

[yvonne johnson]

I'll tread lightly here, but aren't British people over-represented among those who aren't sold on BH?: Simon, SamF, ScottF, macrosan, g. and I have had mixed experiences. Who else? Poor theory? Maybe. I seem to remember that Steve P's posts don't go overboard about the restuarant, and neither does tommy's. (The above is from memory and I apologize if I've mis-remembered.)

Wilfrid, I agree there is a feeling of some innovation. The "cautious" part hits the nail on the head, as some of the dishes are neither bold enough nor flavorful enough for me.

[g.johnson]

Someone made a comment that made sense, although whether it was on the site somewhere on in "real life" I can't recall.

That was me on Saturday during a meal for which you have not yet heaped sufficient praise on my head.

[robert40]

MY twelve year old son and myself went to Blue Hill last Sunday and had what I must admit one of the top meals I've ever had in New York.

Details to come tomorrow, I just got home from a week long visit to Pittsburgh and it is recoup time.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I feel like a broken record saying this about places like Blue Hill. Their style of cooking is to coax flavor out of the ingredients with as little intervention in the cooking process as possible. So your experience is totally dependant on the ingredients you get being extraordinary. Not every ingredient on their menu is going to be extraordinary the day you are there. That's why it's important to communicate to them that you are interested in eating the way they prepare food for Bux, Cabby or myself. (not that we are the only three people that get that treatment mind you.) But when Bux says that when he goes the waiter says that "Dan and Mike would like to cook for you," if you say okay, you are assured they are preparing a meal with the best and freshest ingredients. I find the exact same thing is true at Craft. When I order off the menu my meal is nowhere as good as when I let Marco or his chef choose my meal. In fact when I was at Craft last week, one of the side dishes they brought us was Cepes ala Cartoccio, baked in parchment. They were absolutely phenomenol. But had I not put myself in their hands, how would I have known that the cepes were good quality that day?

[tommy]

a great restaurant has great cepes every day.

Edited November 30, 2002 by tommy (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

A great restaurant might have cepes everyday, but not great cepes everyday. But they will certainly steer their most discerning customers to the great cepes on the days that they have them.

[tommy]

But they will certainly steer their most discerning customers to the great cepes on the days that they have them.

their most vocal and discerning, obviously, as you suggest. otherwise they don't know when they have a discerning customer in the room. the meek apparently shall not inherit the great cepe.

[Steve Plotnicki]

You know not to change the subject, but I should introduce you to Tony Fletcher who wrote the Keith Moon biography. He posts on a few of the wine boards.

[tommy]

You know not to change the subject, but I should introduce you to Tony Fletcher who wrote the Keith Moon biography. He posts on a few of the wine boards.

you'd do that for little ol' me? do ya think he wants to deal with yet another obsessed Moon fan? doubtful.

more importantly, does tony get the good cepes?

[Steve Plotnicki]

He's a good guy. He likes drinking good Rhone wines. Do you want me to hook it up?

[tommy]

He's a good guy.  He likes drinking good Rhone wines. Do you want me to hook it up?

the PM function is the preferred way of carrying on discussions like this. or so i'm told.

seriously though, do the people who go to blue hill, who might be discerning diners but aren't known to the restaurant, getting sub par meals due the the inherent design and approach of the restaurant and cooking? if so, do you think that the restaurant realizes this, and if so, might they be inclined to alter their style, as the dishes generally speaking would not be as good as they could be to, what one has to assume is, the vast majority of diners on a regular basis??

[Liza]

Tommy, you're scaring me.

[tommy]

Tommy, you're scaring me.

yeah, it was the run-on sentence thing wasn't it.

[Priscilla]

Hey!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tommy - The only thing I can say about your egalitarian post is that you need to feel better about yourself. You are entitled to what you deserve, even if it's better then what everyone else gets. And I should add that the fact that you don't know how to ask for it, or are uncomfortable doing so, should only be a reflection on you and not the restaurant. Because they would gladly comply with your request if you asked them. But under no circumstances are they obligated to serve everyone the same meal. In fact, they couldn't serve everyone the same meal if they wanted to. That's because guys like you and Macrosan, knowing that chef's menus are available, still decided to order off the menu. So when the customers decide to order what they want, instead of what is the best thing in the house, in fact often rejecting what the restaurant recommends as the best thing in the house, why is it that you want to blame your bad decision on the restaurant? And yes I think the restaurant realizes it, but they shrug it off and say that's the business we have chosen (Lansky, Godfather Part II,) to serve Tommy and Macro what they asked for, not the best thing available today.

Edited December 1, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[tommy]

...why is it that you want to blame your bad decision on the restaurant? And yes I think the restaurant realizes it, but they shrug it off and say that's the business we have chosen (Lansky, Godfather Part II,) to serve Tommy and Macro what they asked for, not the best thing available today.

if what you say is true (and, of course, i think you're talking out of your ass for the most part), then i'm sorry that blue hill can't produce a decent meal off of their menu (which i don't think is the case). i wonder what the good looking chefs at blue hill would have to say about your theory?

and i find i curious that you think i'm placing "blame" on anyone. curious indeed.

And I should add that the fact that you don't know how to ask for it, or are uncomfortable doing so, should only be a reflection on you and not the restaurant. Because they would gladly comply with your request if you asked them.

i will take your advice, being the elder that you are, and upon my next visit to blue hill, i'll ask that they make something really good, instead of that slop that's listed on their regular menu. regular menus are for tourists. i'll tell 'em steve p said so.

Edited December 1, 2002 by tommy (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say there was anything wrong with their regular menu, I just said that if you ask them to choose your meal you are guaranteed that what they will give you are what they consider their best ingredients. And you will eat much better then if you order off the menu. But if you don't ask, you certainly can't blame anyone but yourself. But if your point is that everything on their menu should be top quality, well I guess you don't read eGullet because we complain that restaurants serve less then the top quality all of the time. But do me a favor and next time you go, don't mention my name. I don't want to be associated with people who have your attitude about it.

[Liza]

Tommy, you're scaring me.

yeah, it was the run-on sentence thing wasn't it.

Actually, no. It was the nearly legal-ese of it.

[tommy]

But do me a favor and next time you go, don't mention my name. I don't want to be associated with people who have your attitude about it.

what attitude is that? the only thing i've done here is satirize what i see as an extreme generalization of that restaurant, and an unrealistic view of the way customers should have to order to ensure a good meal. i won't bother asking what would happen if every customer ordered a chef's menu every night.

so i guess this means you won't introduce me to tony fletcher?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Why is it an unrealistic for customers to express to the restaurant that they are knowledgable diners, and they want the restaurant to prepare the best that they have in the house? It's quite easy. You can even ask to speak to the chef(s) to discuss it with them.

As for TF, you're on probation?

[macrosan]

Steve, I think you're just missing the whole point here.

Blue Hill is a business, and their business is to sell food. The way they do that is to show customers what they have available on their menu, then they invite those customers to select what they would like. They do not show customers a list of "what is good today", they seem to do that only for those customers who ask them specifically to do so.

If what you're saying is that the good food is reserved for a certain sub-class of their customers, then what they're doing is deliberately and knowingly serving sub-standard meals to the others. Now that would be their choice, and no doubt they would at some point go out of business by losing the majority of their customers --- unless the privileged few start to eat there every day at inflated prices just to support their favored supplier.

If what you're suggesting is true then Blue Hill has a faulty business model. Further, from a professional standpoint, it would categorize the owners as confidence tricksters. You see, if I sit down at Blue Hill and order poached duck, and the chef believes that the poached duck that day is anything less than the quality of poached duck that he aspires to produce, then I expect to be advised not to order it.

As it happens, I think you're kidding yourself. I don't believe any of this bullshit. Of course I understand that the special privileges obtained by some customers are attractive to them, maybe a little exciting, and I have absolutely no problem with people wanting or obtaining those special privileges. I quite understand the extra enjoyment that might be obtained by just saying to a chef "cook what you like" and waiting to be surprized by the results. Of course I accept that such a meal might contain some exceptional attention, and this might indeed make it marginally better than a "standard" meal. But to suggest that the privileged meal will suddenly leap onto a whole higher plane of culinary achievement is, in my view, more a symptom of emotional aspiration and self-delusion than of actual food fact.

I hope I'm right, and I would just love to hear that I'm right from the chef of Blue Hill or any other fine dining establishment.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macrosan - Who cares why it is the way it is. Do you want to eat well or not? If you want to eat well do as I say. But if you would prefer complaining to having a great meal, just keep doing what you're doing and talking about how it's the restaurant's fault. I'm sure you will get a lot of sympathy and support from the other people on the board who would rather complain then have a good meal.

[tommy]

i'm pretty sure that i'm not the only one who thinks that asking a restaurant to prepare a special meal is presumptuous and borders obnoxious. however, if we're talking strictly about a tasting menu that is offered to everyone on a given night, then i agree that it's no doubt the way to go if you want to sample what the chef thinks is spot on that day (but what if one only wants 2 courses and no dessert?). unfortunately, on my one visit to blue hill, for example, the tasting menu didn't do much for me.

while "ordering wrong" can happen at just about any restaurant in the world, i'd hate to think that whenever one orders from the menu that they're ordering wrong. i just don't buy it, and i bet the chefs at blue hill don't either.

Edited December 1, 2002 by tommy (log)