Farm Raised Salmon

[fifi]

Before anyone gets all exercised about astaxanthin or castaxanthin (go to question 7) you might want to know that these coloring compounds are the same ones that wild salmon get naturally from krill and other crustaceans.

YES!!! THEY ARE CHEMICALS! SO IS EVERYTHING! INCLUDING YOU AND ME!

One thing I see in those links is reference to lawyers and lawsuits. Now I am really dubious about a case against farmed salmon.

[mcdowell]

With respect to salmon, I just wanted to note that Whole Foods frequently carries both wild and farm-raised salmon, based on availability.  I expect they offer farm-raised because of both the price point and availability concerns.

Let's also point out that Whole Foods very clearly labels their fish as "farmed" or not. Not all retailers do.

[badthings]

I leave the health claims to others. Yes, chemicals -- and lawyers -- are everywhere. But they have absolutely no bearing on the obvious qualitative inferiority of farmed salmon. Compare for yourself.

The other relevant point is that fish farming actually exacerbates the depletion of wild seafood.

[lleechef]

Anyone who has eaten fresh King salmon or fresh Copper River Red salmon would never ever again buy farm raised salmon. If I can't get fresh wild salmon I pick another fish.

[SAute]

Ivory>copper>*

I orderd some ivory for a sit-down for 40ty last month. Pan seared it with a dijon-demi and sweetcorn. People loved it.

Edited November 4, 2003 by SAute (log)

[fresco]

I agree that wild salmon is far, far better than farmed. But wild salmon, like cod, is being fished to the point of extinction--or at least, that is what biologists and other experts keep insisting. It's also generally true that many wild species are being overfished, while there is an increasing array of farmed fish, some, like salmon, not so good, and others, like tilapia, which have been improved (they used to have a muddy taste).

Some of the fish farming practices give me pause, but the way beef, pork or poultry is raised is often quite horrendous. I wonder if it is possible to push for fish farming that is done responsibly and results in a fish that tastes better than some of the farmed stuff does now?

(The alternative seems to be to eat a lot less fish, which is not appealing.) Is any country or company doing fish farming right?

[tammylc]

Anyone who has eaten fresh King salmon or fresh Copper River Red salmon would never ever again buy farm raised salmon.  If I can't get fresh wild salmon I pick another fish.

Your sample of "anyone" is clearly different than my sample of "anyone." My husband, who Saturday bought the stinkiest Camembert the cheese shop had, puts fat-free Kraft singles on his sandwiches.

Plenty of people like salmon enough that they will happily settle for second best if best is not available. Or don't believe the difference in flavor and/or texture makes up for the difference in price. I know many of these people - some of them are even my friends.

[hjshorter]

Austin-based Whole Foods bought out the local equivalent, Bread & Circus, a few years ago.  There was a noticable lowering of standards.  In general while Whole Foods is heavy on the wallet, it is light on its health food standards, at least by comparison to its local predecessor.  For instance, previously no products with sugar were sold.  Now they are available.

I never understood Whole Foods to be a "health food" store. Products containing sugar were available at our local Bread & Circus. It was labeled as "evaporated cane juice" or Florida crystals. Whole Foods has more oragnic options, and we can get crackers there that don't contain partially hydrogenated oils.

Our Whole Foods carries wild salmon when available, usually more than one variety. The farm raised stuff is labled Icelandic. The wild salmon is usually priced at $14.99/lb. The farmed is $8.99 or $9.99/lb.

[VivreManger]

Austin-based Whole Foods bought out the local equivalent, Bread & Circus, a few years ago.  There was a noticable lowering of standards.  In general while Whole Foods is heavy on the wallet, it is light on its health food standards, at least by comparison to its local predecessor.  For instance, previously no products with sugar were sold.  Now they are available.

I never understood Whole Foods to be a "health food" store. Products containing sugar were available at our local Bread & Circus. It was labeled as "evaporated cane juice" or Florida crystals. Whole Foods has more oragnic options, and we can get crackers there that don't contain partially hydrogenated oils.

When it first opened B&C avoided Florida crystals as well.

[foodie52]

Just curious....are any of you posters in the supermarket industry?

[marie-louise]

I agree that wild salmon is far, far better than farmed. But wild ... salmon, like cod, is being fished to the point of extinction--or at least, that is what biologists and other experts keep insisting...

California salmon is not in danger. The Monterey Bay Aquarium publishes a list of best choices of fish to eat, fish to eat with caution, and fish to avoid, including a card you can print and keep in your wallet: Monterey Bay Aquarium website Some types of cod are also on the best choices list.

[Fat Guy]

I wonder if it is possible to push for fish farming that is done responsibly and results in a fish that tastes better than some of the farmed stuff does now?

This seems the overwhelmingly logical approach. It's just not possible to come up with a convincing, realistic argument against all aquaculture. We are going to have aquaculture, forever. At present, virtually all oysters and mussels, most jumbo shrimp, and about half of salmon, are being produced by aquaculture. So the focus should certainly be on responsible, effective aquaculture rather than opposition to aquaculture. Once the responsible and irresponsible practicioners are identified, consumer groups can actually do some good by applying market pressure in favor of the responsible ones.

Copper river salmon caught by small boats and air-shipped to the end-user is indeed superior to any farmed salmon I've ever had. But it is atypical. The average piece of industrial boat-caught salmon is not necessarily better than the average piece of farmed salmon -- farmed salmon tends to be a mild but consistent product. And there is some very good farmed salmon out there, especially from the Bay of Fundy.

As for Whole Foods, it is a business. I'm sure that Whole Foods, like Wegmans, has an aggressive program to identify and build relationships with the most responsible suppliers. And in the end, Whole Foods is about balancing those goals with the need to make a buck. The store can't run itself on a volunteer basis -- it's not eGullet.

[melkor]

This seems the overwhelmingly logical approach. It's just not possible to come up with a convincing, realistic argument against all aquaculture. We are going to have aquaculture, forever.

I seriously doubt that anyone is trying to argue against all aquaculture. Some fish are better suited to farming than others. Looking at the card from the Monterey Aquarium, 10 of the 23 fish they recommend as best are farm raised. Salmon just aren't suited to living in pens, if the fish are bread in a way that changes that it will pose an even greater risk to the wild salmon population when farmed fish escape their pen and breed.

[melkor]

Copper river salmon caught by small boats and air-shipped to the end-user is indeed superior to any farmed salmon I've ever had. But it is atypical. The average piece of industrial boat-caught salmon is not necessarily better than the average piece of farmed salmon -- farmed salmon tends to be a mild but consistent product. And there is some very good farmed salmon out there, especially from the Bay of Fundy.

It's simply not true that the average boat is catching fish that is inferior to farm raised fish. It may not be very good by the time it gets to the east coast, but there is absolutely no comparison between the two breeds when they are both fresh.

[russ parsons]

One thing that bothers me in discussions like this is the absolutism that tends to rise to the surface. Well, sure, wild salmon that is handled properly is an infinitely better fish than farmed. It also costs from 4 to 5 times as much and, if you compare wild biomass vs. farmed harvest, is incredibly scarce. Well, sure, some salmon farms are gross polluters ... until you compare them to chicken farms or cattle ranches ... and, my god, pork! and even vegetable farming is not without its environmental consequences. i sometimes think that the only way we could all eat completely responsibly is to make reservations at chez panisse every night.

What ever happened to moderation? i certainly agree that offending salmon farms--and chicken, beef and pork producers--should be cleaned up. but before we take on anti-salmon farming as a matter of doctrine, it seems to me that we need to weigh what the unintended consequences might be. Close down the salmon farms and then let's see what people eat instead. It's almost a sure bet that there will be environmental consequences to that as well.

[badthings]

One solution is to genetically engineer (farmed) Atlantic Salmon with the growth hormone gene from Pacific Chinook so they grow 4-6 times faster. A/F Protein, Inc. has done just that.

What, you don't like that solution either?

EDIT: Russ, If we all ate a Chez Panisse every day Chino Ranch would turn into a monstrous polluting agribusiness conglomerate. Then where would we be?

Edited November 4, 2003 by badthings (log)

[Fat Guy]

It's simply not true that the average boat is catching fish that is inferior to farm raised fish.  It may not be very good by the time it gets to the east coast, but there is absolutely no comparison between the two breeds when they are both fresh.

Okay, first of all what I said was, "The average piece of industrial boat-caught salmon is not necessarily better than the average piece of farmed salmon." My understanding is that most wild salmon is caught by big boats that stay out for extended periods, and that most of it is at best suitable for canning. Farm-raised salmon tends almost always to fall above that grade. It is a consistent product, albeit blander on the whole than wild.

In addition, I think the shipping issue is relevant. We can certainly get good wild salmon here on the East Coast. Anything they get on the West Coast, chances are there's someone in New York willing to pay the premium to air-ship it overnight. I've had wild salmon shipped to me from out West on a couple of occasions, and it's great -- nobody is questioning that. But it was probably from the top few percent of the harvest, and it was astronomically expensive. Meanwhile, the farmed salmon I can get from the Bay of Fundy -- have you had any? -- is really quite good. The tidal variance (the largest in the world) and strong current keeps the pens very clean, and gives the salmon plenty of exercise. The good Bay of Fundy farmers deserve to be applauded for their environmentally sound practices and impressive product.

I think it also depends what you want to use the salmon for. Even at the top Japanese restaurants, chances are the salmon they use for sushi is mostly going to be farmed, except for a few weeks at a time when they can get Copper River. Farmed salmon, according to the last sushi chef I discussed this with (Shin Tsujimura at Nobu) is safer to use as sushi because of the lack of parasites -- whereas most wild salmon needs to be deep-frozen before it's usable as sushi.

Smoked salmon, as well, is overwhelmingly made from farmed, which is a good product in this application.

[melkor]

Okay, first of all what I said was, "The average piece of industrial boat-caught salmon is not necessarily better than the average piece of farmed salmon." My understanding is that most wild salmon is caught by big boats that stay out for extended periods, and that most of it is at best suitable for canning. Farm-raised salmon tends almost always to fall above that grade. It is a consistent product, albeit blander on the whole than wild.

I've got no experience with the salmon that ends up in cans so it's hard for me to address that. The fish that gets shipped east is no better or worse than what is available here, but it takes an extra day to get to the east coast. Any afternoon from May until late November you can go to the docks in bodega bay (an hour north of SF) and get salmon that was cought that day for $3/lb. The difference between that fish, that day and that fish the next day is significant. After freshness, the difference in quality between the fish has more to do with their diet than anything else, if the fish spends a lot of time in deep water eating krill it will have darker flesh and a more intense flavor.

In addition, I think the shipping issue is relevant. We can certainly get good wild salmon here on the East Coast. Anything they get on the West Coast, chances are there's someone in New York willing to pay the premium to air-ship it overnight. I've had wild salmon shipped to me from out West on a couple of occasions, and it's great -- nobody is questioning that. But it was probably from the top few percent of the harvest, and it was astronomically expensive.

The copper river marketing campaign has pushed the cost way up, which hopefully helps those fishermen earn a living, but the bulk of the cost involved in getting good fish to the east coast while they are still good fish is in the shipping. I can see about same-day shipping a few fish back to NY on united cargo but I suspect that will be expensive as well.

Meanwhile, the farmed salmon I can get from the Bay of Fundy -- have you had any? -- is really quite good. The tidal variance (the largest in the world) and strong current keeps the pens very clean, and gives the salmon plenty of exercise. The good Bay of Fundy farmers deserve to be applauded for their environmentally sound practices and impressive product.

I have had the bay of fundy salmon, though not since I moved to the west coast a few years ago, and I agree with you that as far as farmed salmon goes, it's good.

I think it also depends what you want to use the salmon for. Even at the top Japanese restaurants, chances are the salmon they use for sushi is mostly going to be farmed, except for a few weeks at a time when they can get Copper River. Farmed salmon, according to the last sushi chef I discussed this with (Shin Tsujimura at Nobu) is safer to use as sushi because of the lack of parasites -- whereas most wild salmon needs to be deep-frozen before it's usable as sushi.

I've got no experience with that, but I don't have any reason to doubt it.

Smoked salmon, as well, is overwhelmingly made from farmed, which is a good product in this application.

The difference between a 10-15lb wild fish and the same sized farmed fish isn't all that obvious when it's cold smoked, however if you make lox from a 20+lb wild king salmon its a completely different story - the amount of fat in the fish makes lox that is unbelievably rich.

[fresco]

I'm assuming that before too long, just about the only fish that is widely available will be farmed. And there is some reason to be hopeful--farmed mussels, for instance, are, in my experience, worlds better than the wild variety.

It is true that there is a lot of bad (and badly farmed) salmon around (think a lot of it comes from Chile these days) but just as there is a market for premium beef, chicken, etc. I think people will be willing to pay extra for quality farmed fish, although I know some people will dismiss this as an oxymoron.

[Fat Guy]

Any afternoon from May until late November you can go to the docks in bodega bay (an hour north of SF) and get salmon that was cought that day for $3/lb.

I hate you.

[ExtraMSG]

I'm assuming that before too long, just about the only fish that is widely available will be farmed. And there is some reason to be hopeful--farmed mussels, for instance, are, in my experience, worlds better than the wild variety.

There's a big difference between farm-raising salmon and mussels, though. Farm-raised salmon hasn't gone through the selection process nor the natural life cycle that apparently has such an effect on it.

Still though, even being in the PNW where there are *lots* of Salmon and steelhead runs nearby, I often purchase farm-raised. Most of it, if relatively fresh, is like mediocre hatchery fish or hatchery salmon that's been sitting around for a while. It's not the best stuff for simple preparations, but with a sauce or dredged in flour and fried with some seasoning it's quite edible. I have a real salmon sensitivity, though. Generally, I can't stand the flavor. And if it's been sitting in the fridge for a day or two, no way. Copper River salmon that's quite fresh is the only stuff I've been able to truly enjoy besides some extremely fresh local stuff. I've even done taste tests between varieties with my friends and wife. It's quite noticeable. I think salmon, trout, and steelhead more than most fish have a broad range of quality that can move from one level to the next in a hurry. Just the change in temperature from cold streams to temperate streams can make a pretty significant difference in flavor in my experience.

There are three issues, though: the gastronomic, the political, and the economic. Gastronomically, I think farm-raised is on average noticeably worse. But even with that, people who like salmon will still enjoy many of its great features. I think most of the political arguments against farm-raised salmon are internally inconsistent or just red herrings about practicalities that can almost always be fixed. And economically, farm-raised salmon seems to be much better. It's generally much cheaper, usually half the price almost even here in the PNW where we have decent access to ocean and stream salmon. And it's probably a much more efficient use of resources.

The copper river marketing campaign has pushed the cost way up, which hopefully helps those fishermen earn a living, but the bulk of the cost involved in getting good fish to the east coast while they are still good fish is in the shipping. I can see about same-day shipping a few fish back to NY on united cargo but I suspect that will be expensive as well.

Here in Portland we were getting Copper River sockeye for $5/lb near the end of the run. I could write a book on 1001 ways to mutilate tasty salmon.

One of the great things here for a bbq when the salmon is running is going down near the dams and picking up whole salmon freshly caught by the tribes. They have special fishing rights on the Columbia River and you can get damn cheap whole salmon less than an hour old, sometimes straight off the line (or out of the nets as the case may be). You can buy a 50 lb chinook for less than $100. The only problem is trying to fit one in a bbq.

[ExtraMSG]

This seems the overwhelmingly logical approach. It's just not possible to come up with a convincing, realistic argument against all aquaculture. We are going to have aquaculture, forever. At present, virtually all oysters and mussels, most jumbo shrimp, and about half of salmon, are being produced by aquaculture. So the focus should certainly be on responsible, effective aquaculture rather than opposition to aquaculture. Once the responsible and irresponsible practicioners are identified, consumer groups can actually do some good by applying market pressure in favor of the responsible ones.

Did you, Fat Guy, or anyone else ever see that (I think it was on PBS) story about aquaculture in the desert. They're these big self-contained fish farms that are highly environmentally sound (based on how they described them). I can't remember too many details, but I remember thinking how amazing it was.

[beans]

My understanding is that most wild salmon is caught by big boats that stay out for extended periods, and that most of it is at best suitable for canning. Farm-raised salmon tends almost always to fall above that grade. It is a consistent product, albeit blander on the whole than wild.

The boats aren't so big. (I did post pics of my grandfather's boat, the F/V Martha K -- truly one of the last *full* purse, commercial seiners of the southeast).

The seiners (account for 85% commercial pink salmon caught, 15% sockeye and 2% kings) average 58 feet in length and trollers (2% of salmon caught -- kings and cohos) are about 50 feet in length. A tad smaller than the pleasure craft I've crewed (63'+ fiberglas toys).

Seiners crew usually around 5 members (Trollers are usually only two) and have very, very short openings (six, eight or ten hour length openings) as determined by Alaska Fish and Game. One summer my father crewed on my grandfather's boat (NWA was on one of their multiple strikes) and those used to be in the glory days of a couple day length openings.

Gillnetters tend to be even smaller boats (30 feet) with crews of about 2-3, and average about 35% of salmon caught (usually, mostly sockeye).

Alaska isn't overfished as far as salmon go. Very careful, responsible and successful management. Here's something from http://www.state.ak.us/adfg/sportf/region1/sit.htm regarding Medvejie fish hatchery, located very close to Sitka:

Sitka is also home to one of Alaska's largest recreational marine coho salmon fisheries. Alaska hatcheries, primarily local hatcheries on Baranof Island, contribute about 20% of the marine coho harvest, while non-Alaska hatchery contributions are few. Recreational harvests of coho salmon increased substantially beginning in 1994, and 39,000 coho were harvested in 1997. Numerous coastal streams support smaller fresh water sport fisheries for this species as well.

And now a web page for Medvejie

As far as shipping, well from these Alaskan fishing towns y'all gotta put up with the shipping regluations via good ole Alaska Air. They are significantly reducing the size and weight of what is allowable without substantial fees this Fall. Workers Comp. claims in those baggage handlers and back injuries. Most of little Alaska is very dependent upon Alaska Air and their services, which do include (depending upon area) US Mail and Fed Ex shipping contracts. I did know the restrictions on weight, but can't recall at this moment. It is going to hit the charter "nazis" (affectionately referred to by local Alaskans/Sitkans) with regard to hosting a charter of men 'from down south' fishing up those halibut and kings and sending it home, wherever that may be.

Farm raised=no thank you. I'd rather starve.

The old environment legal assistant that tackled USEPA Superfund sites is now quite curious about this salmon farming/filth concern.... Research!

edited for clarity

Edited November 6, 2003 by beans (log)

[badthings]

More Salmon in the news:

this is a big issue in BC

Salon on Whole Foods farmed fish. [you have to watch the ad, of course].

[marie-louise]

Any afternoon from May until late November you can go to the docks in bodega bay (an hour north of SF) and get salmon that was cought that day for $3/lb.

I hate you.

Hate me too, I drive past there twice a week.

He forgot to mention that the rest of the year the boats fish for local Dungeness crab, also available for a reasonable price. Only a few more weeks until the season starts.