Farm Raised Salmon

[cdh]

1)  the by-products of the farming are bad for the environment.

2)  the fish are fed colored food to impart color in their flesh.

3) farm raised fish taste like shit

I always thought they tasted like mud... same color and texture, I guess...

[cdh]

Ivory>copper>*

I orderd some ivory for a sit-down for 40ty last month. Pan seared it with a dijon-demi and sweetcorn. People loved it.

Ivory? Are you talking about the north atlantic salmon that don't have pink flesh? Have had, and is good... But you're unclear as to what you meant.

[beans]

I'm only guessing, but I think SAute was referring to an "ivory" or "white" King. (Pacific, wild)

White Kings are considered rare and occur in nature from time to time. They are white fleshed just like a halibut and they do not appear any different than a "regular" King, as a live fish. When they are caught and cleaned is when you find you've caught a "novelty."

At first white Kings were hard to sell at an equal price to a "regular" King and were often ones that the troller or gillnetter kept for themself, instead of taking it along with the rest of their catch to a tender for market. Now, this novelty fish is sought out. However, I've had both and am not really sure there is any difference in flavour, texture or richness. Some say there is while others do not. Try one and you be the judge!

According to an individual of the Seafood Technology Program of Sheldon Jackson College, Sitka, Alaska, white Kings are approximately 10 percent of the entire southeast Alaskan King salmon population with areas that are more well known for them. Rivers along the Lynn Canal this percentage is as high as 25 percent.

I think I've read that the Columbia River is another area white Kings are found, more easily, as well.

edited for clarity

Edited November 8, 2003 by beans (log)

[ExtraMSG]

I've never seen the "ivory" salmon advertised here in Portland. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, though.

Does anyone know the name for and/or have tried the sexless salmon I saw on an episode of Iron Chef? Supposedly they're very rare and have a better flavor.

[beans]

Those are farm raised as well.

Background:

I'm not sure if this was in the 1960's (I think it was) and as a result of decreases in fish stocks the University of Washington, School of Fisheries started several projects.

One was to try to create a "chumpy," labeled as "a biological freak" and was a blend of both a Pink (humpy) salmon and a Chum salmon. This failed and was eliminated.

Another project was the creation of the "triploid salmon."

The idea was to radiate a King (aka Chinook) egg to create a fish that would grow large and remain sexless in the Sound until caught, without any interference with the natural gene pool. Some refer to this fish as "mutant."

I'm still not sure where this project is -- whether chucked to the drawing board or still in practice within the United States as I found articles regarding Canadian aquaculture.

What is this fish?

These are fish that are treated with horomone, drived from the Chinook, to grow approximately three times faster than a natural, "regular" salmon. This growth horomone is purported not to have an affect human growth from consumption of triploid salmon.

Many affirmative arguments outline they are safe to eat, better for the environment because they grow faster, are a more efficient fish because:

• studies have shown they convert food more efficiently, thereby reducing wast to the environment, and
  
• have a high metabolic rate, causing the fish to consume less oxygen in attaining their large size.
  

Lastly, they do not reproduce thereby not interferring with the natural salmon populations.

Here is a nutshell of the triploid salmon I learned from a NY Times, March, 2002 article by Pete Bodo, entitled, "Sterilized Frankenfish-Biotech Progress? Genetic Engineering Rescues Salmon."

Triploid Salmon

These fish are bio-engineered by a simple process. Triploidization is also quite cost effective because hundreds of thousands of eggs can be processed for a fraction of a penny per fish in cost.

The fertilized eggs are basically placed into a pressure cooker-like high tech equipment and are shocked to distrupt cell development and create three sets of chromosones (versus the natural two, "diploid" sets -- male/female; x/y).

What happens, the third set confuses the develoment of the protosperm and egg cells rendering the fish unable to generate sperm or eggs.

Problems/Challenges

Shrinking prices and falling profits have kept fish farmers to back away from the concept.

For the consumer, the triploid fish does have more protein because of the third set of cells, however the cells are larger in size and contain a higher water content. Somewhat less than desirable for the consumer in taste and texture.

For the fish: much deformity (I've read about excessively large jaws) at an fairly high rate of occurence, as well as a weaker immune system.

Here are a couple of webpages from the folks at Fisheries and Oceans, Canada, regarding Aquaculture:

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/t.../triploid_e.htm

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/t.../femaleap_e.htm

Here is another aquaculture article, from Australia, the World News referring to Toronto Star as the resource for this August, 2003 publication:

http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=486

Salmon farms, like all aquaculture sites, are, in fact, watery feedlots where small fish are fed in a controlled environment until they reach precise market size, generally a little under one kilogram.

Fertilization and hatching take place in indoor tanks. Eggs are sometimes treated to make the hatchlings sexless and, therefore, faster growing.

And, this may be similar to what was shown on Iron Chef, but maybe not too! I have found several webpaes regarding the Japanese Masu Salmon, artificial propogation, spawning (some of which include diploid femails and triploid males studies) from both the Department of Fisheries Resource Managment, Tokyo University of Fisheries and the National Research Institute of Aquaculture, Nansei, Mie 516-08, Japan:

The Economic View of Artificial Propagation of Masu Salmon (Oncorhynchus masou)

http://www.lib.noaa.gov/japan/aquaculture/...ort22/sano.html

Induced Masu Salmon Spawning of Diploid Females by Triploid Males

http://www.lib.noaa.gov/japan/aquaculture/...2/kitamura.html

Want more info? Google away! I'm sure there are oodles of info about, for and against!

*a small, wee footnote to this -- yes, I began undergrad with full hopes and interests of marine biology I was in awe of Professor Cynthia Groat's infectious enthusiasm of showing up to class in a denim and corduroy (to represent the texture of the underside of the whale), head to tail whale Halloween costume. She did conduct a serious lecture, while wearing same, which also included a slideshow on whales and sharing one of herself, and with a beaming smile, at the Smithsonian standing next to an enormous whale penis (I forgot if it was a baleen, gray or blue species) as she also informed us that part of the whaleskin that once was often used to make golfbags of old. Mostly, her enthusiasm bubbled over to an unending interest and dedication to marine studies that was quite evident in both professional and personal life. She was a one-of-a-kind, university educator.

edited for clarity -- durn it!

Edited November 9, 2003 by beans (log)

[desilu]

when I worked in a fish market we would occasionally be given white King by the wholesaler or fishermen -- my boss would split it up among us -- There was no market for it, so no point to trying to sell it. We also occasionally got wild steelhead in this way -- the best fish I have ever had.

Farmed salmon is bad for several reasons: they can escape from pens and compete with wild salmon as well as introduce disease to wild salmon; they produce more pollution; they reduce pressure on preserving wild salmon (for example, removing or redesigning dams that block 80 to 90 percent of salmon migration so that salmon aren't killed or blocked from spawning); they require the use of additives (color); they taste bad compared to wild salmon.

Farmed fish isn't bad in itself; if they are completely isolated from wild stock -- meaning not raised within wild waters but in isolated tanks -- there's nothing horribly wrong with it. Look at the success of fish like tilapia... That said, the flavor of good salmon comes from its fat reserves, which are based on how far an animal must swim to lay its eggs -- for this reason, farmed salmon can never taste as good as wild salmon.

[beans]

edited to add: Welcome to eG desilu!

Farm Raised:

I've read one of the largest concerns about farm raised escapees will co-mingle and spawn with wild salmon which in turn alters the offspring's behavior. The farm raised fish display more survival behaviors and will dive to dart away from fishermen's nets which is quite different than the original "natural" behavior of truly, wild salmon.

I sort of got it in part when I hung around my friends' or my grandfather's boats and they would spend some of the down time between openings painting the metal rings of their seines. The explanation when I asked, puzzled at what I thought was an odd practice and wondered if it was all chalked up to fishing superstition, was hatchery fish are "divers." Fish hatchery salmon imprint early on and learn about shiny things that scoop them up (large and deep tennis racket shaped net to scoop the small fish to move to other tanks, etc.), despite they are released to grow and develop in the "wild" ocean.

Another farm raised problem -- the fish are easily susceptible to sea lice infestations. Now those are disgusting and when they do escape (I think I remember them being referred to as feral) they run the risk of spreading lice infestations to the wild populations.

White kings:

Whenever I'm in town, I'll occasionally see them for sale at Pike Place and see it here and there on a few menus too.

Edited November 11, 2003 by beans (log)

[DRColby]

Let's call a spade a spade. Most people won't eat wild salmon.

They won't eat chum, they won't eat pinks, they won't eat many silvers and are damned selective in the reds they eat.

Examples? Long ago lots of wild salmon went in cans. How much canned salmon does anyone eat anymore?

Costco this summer had whole reds - or sockeye - from the Copper River for sale. Whole, fish for under $4 a pound. It wasn't fashionable at the time - after the great Copper River promotions were over - and they didn't have a lot of takers. People who eat wild salmon don't eat wild Atlantic salmon (thank, god). On the other hand about the only salmon that European's eat is Atlantic - pen-raised fish.

Want to start a big run on depleating our wild salmon (Chinook and Coho) populations? Just like we have done with the Atlantic salmon and our steelhead, then create a big market for these fisheries, and let the Russians and Chinese start fishing for them in the open waters.

dave

[fresco]

Perhaps I'm not "most people" (hell, I'm not even "a few people") but I'd eat fresh sockeye every time I could get it. But it's not often available, and it's rarely very fresh, unless I happen to be in British Columbia.

But I take your point about overfishing. What I hope will happen is that salmon farming practices will improve to produce a better tasting fish, posing less of a risk to its wild cousins. That I would pay for.

[beans]

Most people won't eat wild salmon.

Resource for this?

[beans]

What I hope will happen is that salmon farming practices will improve to produce a better tasting fish, posing less of a risk to its wild cousins. That I would pay for.

Like moving them inland?

Here's some brief notes from the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch Program.

The ecological impact of fish farming depends on which species are raised, how they are raised and where the farm is located.

Fish farms depend on wild fish

While farmed fish and shellfish can supplement our seafood supply, they can't replace the variety and abundance of seafood from the wild. Most seafood farms depend on healthy wild populations to supply eggs or young that the farmers raise for market. Many fish farms also depend on wild fish, like anchovies, as food for the farmed fish.

And a few words regarding net pens:

Net-pen farming can be a messy business

Many farmed fish, including most farmed salmon, are raised in net pens, like cattle in a feed lot. Thousands of fish concentrated in one area produce tons of feces, polluting the water. Diseases can spread from fish in the crowded pens to wild fish. Antibiotics and other drugs used to control those diseases leak out into the environment, creating drug-resistant disease organisms. And if farmed fish escape their pens, they can take over habitat from wild fish in the area. While the U.S. has laws to protect the environment around coastal fish farms, many nations that supply farmed fish to U.S. markets do not.

edit: link boo boos

Edited November 24, 2003 by beans (log)

[robyn]

<<OK... I am confused. What is so bad about farm raised salmon? That is a serious question. I really don't know if I would know the difference. And hasn't aquaculture been encouraged to supply much needed protein? After all, the Polynesians were practicing aquaculture hundreds of years ago.

Enlighten me, please.>>

Fifi - You are right to be skeptical. There are issues about farmed salmon. But there are many issues about non-farmed seafood that don't get nearly as much press (if they get any at all). Like the FDA warning for women of child bearing age and children regarding fish they should only eat in very limited quantities (if at all) due to mercury levels. Hepatitis problems with shellfish. Ciguetera <sp?> in reef fish (this is a nasty neurotoxin that occurs naturally in many larger reef fish - including grouper - I've seen a fair number of lawsuits involving it). Worms in fish. Etc. Some of the problems are related to what people do - some just occur naturally and were around long before people were around. When I used to go to the Bahamas - there was an old native custom. Feed the junk parts of the seafood you catch to the cat. If the cat is ok the next morning - you can eat it yourself.

Overall - our food laws regarding seafood are almost non-existent compared to the laws that govern the production of things like beef, chicken and pork. I'd put produce in the middle of the regulation spectrum - especially when it comes to imported produce.

I have never read anything particularly bad about the health consequences of eating farmed salmon. And I am old enough to remember when I never had to worry about salmon at all - because it was so expensive that you only ate it occasionally (whether at home or at restaurants). In addition - I am sure that a lot of the same people who say that farmed salmon isn't as tasty as wild smother it with sauces that obliterate all traces of the natural taste. Too bad I can't take on some of the people who complain about farmed salmon with a blind tasting. Robyn

[fresco]

I agree with almost everything you say, Robyn. Indeed, most of the salmon we eat is the farmed Atlantic variety, because it is a lot better than no salmon at all. But fresh sockeye is mighty tasty.

[robyn]

<<I agree with almost everything you say, Robyn. Indeed, most of the salmon we eat is the farmed Atlantic variety, because it is a lot better than no salmon at all. But fresh sockeye is mighty tasty.>>

I agree with what you say too <smile>. I happen to live in a "non-fresh-wild-salmon part of the world". I enjoy eating all kinds of fresh wild salmon - mostly plain thank you - when I travel - but - without farmed salmon - it wouldn't be as common on my dinner table as hamburger (and it's more common than hamburger - because I'm not a big beef eater). My favorite preparations are cooked in foil (basted with a bit of olive oil - and some basil and tomatoes on top) or cooked on the grill on one of those planks they sell at Williams Sonoma. Robyn

[DRColby]

Beans,

I think prices for wild salmon - chum (outside of roe stripping), pinks. silvers, Bristol Bay reds - point out that people are spending their salmon bucks on pen-raised fish. Add inthat the point that canery demand for salmon is almost not existant and you get what amounts to not a very good market for wild salmon.

I think to that if we were to check you would find that world and US salmon consumption is at an all-time high.

I'd like to see the AK fishermen getting their fair share of this huge salmon market. I'd like to see them supplement the seasonal runs with AK pen-raised salmon so the market has a constant supply of "AK salmon"; not Chilan, not BC, not Norwegian, not Scotish raised salmon. My point is the world is going to eat salmon. Whether it is from pens off the coast of Santa Barbara, Petersburg, AK, or Thiland, matters mainly to Alaskans.

When I travel the coast of Southeast I see abandon oyster farms, abandon fox farms, abandon mink ranches; I know that things crazier than pen raising salmon have been tried in Alaska. Some worked, some didn't. Keeping pen-raised salmon away from the public won't.

dave

[beans]

So never mind the environmental concerns of pen raised salmon? [are my previous posts invisible? or the source of questionable authority?] Their pollution? The tremendous damage they cause to wild stocks when they've escaped? What about the USEPA reports have noted that the amount of fish needed to sustain a salmon farm exceeds what the farm will produce for sale at the market to the public? Where does the food for these penned salmon come from? Wild stock!

If you'd like to see the Alaskan fisherman getting a fair share, then purchase and support Alaskan fisheries by refusing to purchase farm raised garbage. The State of Alaska has a terrific record for carefully regulating salmon harvests while preserving sustainability. It is the consumer that is willing to settle for something less than the real deal corrupting the market for what salmon does in fact taste like.

Edited November 24, 2003 by beans (log)

[ExtraMSG]

You should at least admit, beans, that Salmon (and many other fish) will become an elite ingredient without farming.

You should also recognize that most of the "wild" fish, as you call them, are hatchery fish and that there's significant controversy over their existence as well.

Results of a quick search on Google:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Dai...farm000404.html

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/iss...iles/cb6103.cfm

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1200/2...1/article.jhtml

[beans]

You should at least admit, beans, that Salmon (and many other fish) will become an elite ingredient without farming.

Oh, I haven't ever disputed that.

You should also recognize that most of the "wild" fish, as you call them, are hatchery fish and that there's significant controversy over their existence as well.

I'm not the only one calling them wild. Take a good look at how many commercial fishermen there are. The hatchery fish don't have little fluorescent tags denoting which were from a hatchery and which were lucky enough to survive and were born in a stream. The numbers are estimates, but fairly good estimations on number, done by one considered to be an expert.

Results of a quick search on Google:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Dai...farm000404.html

This first article was done in 2001, in Oregon. I've cited Alaskan hatcheries and do not claim to have first hand knowledge of what sort of commercial fishing or hatchery activity occurs in Oregon.

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/iss...iles/cb6103.cfm

This is also an article regarding Oregon and a study of:

Over the next several years, the NWFSC's Little Sheep and Minter Creek studies will provide invaluable information on the rate at which domesticated hatchery fish can readapt to the natural environment. This information will be critical for making informed decisions about the long-term genetic risks of hatchery production on wild stocks.

Was there a follow up or conclusive study published?

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1200/2...1/article.jhtml

Today, Columbia River chinook adult stocks are so depleted that the northwest states permit little fishing of them. Yet, thanks to hatcheries, "there are more juvenile fish coming down the Columbia River than there have ever been," notes Ray Hilborn, a population ecologist at the University of Washington in Seattle.

Again, not Alaska and also from 2001, but when considering the remainder of the paragraph:

Moreover, he notes hatchery-reared smolts, owing to their coddling, tend to enter the river bigger than their wild brethren--with bigger appetites. What's happening, he says, is that hatchery fish are replacing wild salmon.

Then the questions become: Lesser of all evils? Would it be better if hatcheries did not exist? Could one differentiate, in actual taste, between a truly wild salmon, a hatchery but now mature salmon and then a enironmentally polluting, farm raised salmon? I would tend to believe a surviving hatchery raised fish and a truly wild, mature fish would taste much the same. I would also tend to believe that hatchery efforts are environmentally more beneficial than disease susceptible salmon farms.

edited for clarity and issues with "close all tags"

Edited November 24, 2003 by beans (log)

[ExtraMSG]

I'm not the only one calling them wild. Take a good look at how many commercial fishermen there are. The hatchery fish don't have little fluorescent tags denoting which were from a hatchery and which were lucky enough to survive and were born in a stream. The numbers are estimates, but fairly good estimations on number, done by one considered to be an expert.

I'm not sure how it's handled in Alaska, but in most of the PacificNW, I believe hatchery fish have clipped fins indicating which is which. Truly wild fish can't usually be kept. This even extends often to trout on rivers like the Deschutes in Oregon.

Those articles did all deal with Oregon or Washington, I think. But the woes of Oregon and Washington and Northern California could quickly become the woes of British Columbia and Alaska if farm-raised fish were eliminated. The pressure on those fisheries would greatly increase. The price for salmon would certainly increase making it much more desireable to poach, overfish, reduce regulations, etc.

[ledervin]

It is a neccesity due to the demand! Farm-raised salmon now outnumber wild fish nearly 85 to one. As wild stocks dwindle, this legendary sport fish has become the veritable chicken of the sea. according to national geographic

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/03...ure5/index.html

in Scotland—as in many North Atlantic countries—farmed salmon outnumber wild salmon by 300 or 400 to one.

[DRColby]

Beans,

For the record, I don't eat farm-raised salmon. I also ask any resturant I enter with steelhead on the menu to take it off.

Three times last week we had what ypu call "wild" salmon. Once salmon patties off a King frame. Once in a gratin - mixed with what you and I call sea bass -and albacore. And once a piece of grilled silver. All that fish was from either WA or AK (international on the tuna) waters and personally caught.

I have fished on the Nushkag (sp) and think it is one of the best managed wild fisheries in the world. An isolated river, that most people can't get to, with a fish-run from a bay with stange but fitting commercial regulations. The Nush' wasn't aways so well managed when commercial fishermen got desperate and nearly depeated the entire run. Fortunately the Kings have lamprey scars and so don't sell well as premimum fish.

I have also stood on banks the Thames in London, near the Tower, and seen the little marker that reads " The last salmon passed by here in 1520" (or some such ancient year). I have also stool on the banks of the Seine and be told by fishermen that salmon are returning up-stream.

People, demand, and stupidilty (or greed) vanqish our resources. One only has to read the history of the "iron Chink" or see pictures of the huge, abandon canneries in Bellinghan, King Salmon, or Southeast to undertand this.

Let's use our resources wisely so we don't have to wonder what the last salmon in the Thames tasted like, or if the French sportsman is telling a fish story, or that susistance fishing on the "Nush mustl really be just that.

dave

[beans]

ExtraMSG, and in part, DRColby:

I'm not sure about the clipping of fins in Alaskan hatcheries. I'll have to ask my fisherman relatives. When I've gone fishing, I may have very well have caught one of those hatchery fish, or a truly wild one, I never noticed any physical differences.

I'm sure somewhere in all of the salmon threads I've mentioned that there is much heated debate within Alaska regarding state managed (which seems to have a better track record) or federal management of its own natural resources. I trust in the state's commitment.

Does this also need to address the global warming issues? I forgot from what specific year/date, Alaska on the whole has warmed up in temperature, on average, 2 degrees. Biologists were conducting studies regarding that difference in temperature and salmon returning to their home river. Some rivers no longer have fish returning to spawn. I think I've read somewhere that the salmon remember their own river from smell. Apparently that changes with global warming.

[melkor]

I'm not sure about the clipping of fins in Alaskan hatcheries.  I'll have to ask my fisherman relatives.  When I've gone fishing, I may have very well have caught one of those hatchery fish, or a truly wild one, I never noticed any physical differences.

I'm not sure about AK, but in Oregon and California the hatcheries clip the adipose fin on all the fish they release. In Oregon your only able to keep fish with clipped fins, the wild-wild fish need to be released - California lets you keep either.

[beans]

I'm still not sure about that fin thing, but could very well be in practice throughout all of Alaskan hatcheries. I haven't gone along during any of the commercial fishing trips -- all sorts of silly ideas about women being on board and bad luck! So none of us grand-daughters got to see what Grandpa does best. The one time I was invited along another handsome fisherman's boat to observe and shoot as many photos as I could manage, I had to cancel.

I've found some studies where they were cut off and a short piece of wire was injected into the fish's snout, but it mentioned fisheries I think were located in south central Alaska. There is both a sport fishing and a commercial fishing side of this issue in state natural resource management.

Sifting through multiple PDFs have been less than thrilling this afternoon and turkey day preparations are calling my attentions....

At any rate, here's an informative little PDF nutshell on Alaska's Salmon Management Program for anyone that is interested about the harvesting salmon from the wilds of Alaskan waters.

[fresco]

There is another way to look at this issue. Farmed salmon may well prove to be the salvation of wild salmon, by depressing the price people are willing to pay for it.

Indeed, if markets are flooded with farmed salmon, the price of wild salmon may drop so much that it doesn't pay to fish for them on a huge scale.

If the cod had been more easily domesticated, the scandalous devastation of their stocks on the east coast might have been averted.

On a somewhat related note, so many farmers and ranchers in western Canada have "diworsified" into elk, wild boar and buffalo that the price for these once expensive exotics has crashed.