The Wine Clip

[hollywood]

Submitted for your consideration: If the principle behind the Wine Clip is valid, doesn't it make sense to become best buds with the local radiologist and have him run all your wine thru his MRI scanner? Nobel committee, that's H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D.

[balex]

Let me just lay out how things will unfold from here on in:

some people will say it changes the wine; some sceptics will ask for clarification of how the test was conducted, and then conclude that it was meaningless. A flame war will then follow for about 2 days. Then some people will do a better test (proper double blind ABX style test) which will not show an effect. The sceptics will conclude that it is all snake oil, but many people will think that there must really be something behind it all.

[tommy]

Submitted for your consideration:  If the principle behind the Wine Clip is valid, doesn't it make sense to become best buds with the local radiologist and have him run all your wine thru his MRI scanner?  Nobel committee, that's H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D.

once you run the wine throught the clip, i would think the wine loses is ability to age well. that fact, if it is a fact, would also render the idea of wineries using it rather useless as well.

now, where do i send me check?

[slkinsey]

One interesting thing I'd like to see is the effect of the Wine Clip versus other treatments like swirling the wine in the glass for 120 seconds. I'd like to see something like:

A. Clipped fresh out of the bottle

versus

B. Non-clipped fresh out of the bottle

versus

C. Clipped and swirled

versus

D. Non-clipped and swirled

We know there will be a big difference between AB and CD. But, even if there is a clear difference between A and B, if there is no clear difference between C and D there is little value in the device.

[hollywood]

Hey, if it works, he can come out with The Roach Clip to make bong water taste like Sensimila Margaux.

[thewineclip]

Let me just lay out how things will unfold from here on in:

some people will say it changes the wine; some sceptics will ask for clarification of how the test was conducted, and then conclude that it was meaningless. A flame war will then follow for about 2 days. Then some people will do a better test (proper double blind ABX style test)  which will not show an effect. The sceptics will conclude that it is all snake oil, but many people will think that there must really be something behind it all.

Let me tell you what will happen from here...

a. Liquid, when passing through a magnetic field, changes its molecular structure. This I know. Even though I am not a wine expert, I'm smart enough to know that wine is a liquid - therefore, something is happening. There can be no arguement regarding that claim.

b. I've watched (as an observer and as the producer) more than 2k taste tests. And I can recall each time someone could not taste a difference. It's rare. But then I have the results of this thread. If you go back to post #1 and read through, it's really hard to figure how many of the people commenting can be credited with "really wanting to discover" the true effectiveness of the product. EXAMPLE: I've got one person on this thread calling the product "crap" and promising never to lower himself to using or testing the product. Then 20 threads later he's asking someone to send him a clip so he/she can run a test too?!*#?

c. Regardless of the eG findings, TWC is doing great! Not because we trick people. Not because we sell to losers (as one eG user defined our customers). And certainly not due to any 2am infomercial where we give away a set of steak knives when ordering a clip.

The reason why we are doing so well is because people who enjoy wine can taste a smoother, more refined wine when using the clip. I've seen folks, especially ladies, who haven't been fans of red wine because of the bitterness, now drink red when using the clip. My wife being one.

d. I've taken time, money and effort to make this eG thread an interesting one. I can only hope that it's been enjoyable for the majority of attendees. Others, who cannot muster anything positive to say, and post commentary that is rediculous and insulting should find a new website - you bring the level of eG to a harmful low.

[Mark Sommelier]

Hey, if it works, he can come out with The Roach Clip to make bong water taste like Sensimila Margaux.

Wow, dood. That is like a todally cool idea.

[slkinsey]

a. Liquid, when passing through a magnetic field, changes its molecular structure.  This I know.  Even though I am not a wine expert, I'm smart enough to know that wine is a liquid - therefore, something is happening. There can be no arguement regarding that claim.

Indeed there can be argument regarding this claim. I have just spoken to one of the most prominent physical chemists in academia, who assures me that the molecular structure of a liquid is not changed when it passes through a magnetic field (unless that liquid contains a lot of dissolved iron, I suppose). Think about it... how could this possibly be true? If you pass a solution of, say, H2O and sodium chloride through a magnetic field, how could the molecular structure possibly change? If this were true, how could we do MRI scans? After all, the magnetic fields used in an MRI are infinitely more powerful than those produced by something like the Wine Clip, and the human body is mostly liquid. Now, I've had a MRI a time or two. Are you suggesting that my body today is fundamentally different than it was before I was MRI-ed because the magnetic field changed the molecular structure of the liquid in my body? MRI, by the way, works by aligning all the atoms along the same axis, not the molecules. Before you suggest that the science is indisputable and we need to read up on Michael Faraday, I suggest you look for support that is a bit more current than 1840. (By the way, Faraday's findings about the disassociation of molecules in a liquid medium had to do with passing an electrical current through the liquid -- hence the word "electrochemistry.")

b. I've watched (as an observer and as the producer) more than 2k taste tests.  And I can recall each time someone could not taste a difference.  It's rare.  But then I have the results of this thread.

Anyone who understands experimental psychology knows that certain kinds of perceptual tests are guaranteed to produce certain results. The only kind of test that would truly demonstrate a real effect would be a double blind ABX type test with a statistical analysis for significance if any difference was shown to exist. The reason you see so much skepticism in this thead is due to the fact that many people on these boards have the applicable scientific, psychological, medical and culinary knowledge to doubt the veracity of your claims. My training in psychology, for example, leaves me quite certain that I could conduct taste tests such as you describe using a nonmagnetic Wine Clip and achieve similar results. This does not mean that the Wine Clip doesn't work as you suggest... but it does mean that your "2k taste tests" prove exactly nothing.

[tommy]

If this were true, how could we do MRI scans?  After all, the magnetic fields used in an MRI are infinitely more powerful than those produced by something like the Wine Clip, and the human body is mostly liquid.  Now, I've had a MRI a time or two.  Are you suggesting that my body today is fundamentally different than it was before I was MRI-ed because the magnetic field changed the molecular structure of the liquid in my body?

i'm even more smooth after an MRI. if you can believe that.

[slkinsey]

If this were true, how could we do MRI scans?  After all, the magnetic fields used in an MRI are infinitely more powerful than those produced by something like the Wine Clip, and the human body is mostly liquid.  Now, I've had a MRI a time or two.  Are you suggesting that my body today is fundamentally different than it was before I was MRI-ed because the magnetic field changed the molecular structure of the liquid in my body?

i'm even more smooth after an MRI. if you can believe that.

Isn't that a logical impossibility? Like more than infinity?

[thewineclip]

b. I've watched (as an observer and as the producer) more than 2k taste tests.  And I can recall each time someone could not taste a difference.  It's rare.  But then I have the results of this thread.

Anyone who understands experimental psychology knows that certain kinds of perceptual tests are guaranteed to produce certain results. The only kind of test that would truly demonstrate a real effect would be a double blind ABX type test with a statistical My training in psychology, for example, leaves me quite certain that I could conduct taste tests such as you describe using a nonmagnetic Wine Clip and achieve similar results. This does not mean that the Wine Clip doesn't work as you suggest... but it does mean that your "2k taste tests" prove exactly nothing.

I appologize, I thought this site was called eGullet not eScience.

Out taste tests do prove something, that the wine clip is not nonsense. Although these people do not have the Phd's you and the others may, they could care less about the Scientific theory behind it. They are intelligent enough to know what they enjoy and don't need a phsychiatrist or Einstein to tell them differently.

I go back to the same thing I've said from the start. Don't like the wine clip, don't buy it.

I don't have all the answers and quite frankly I won't be looking for them either.

Do Nike sneakers make people jump higher than Adidas? Place 2k people in a room and maybe 1990 of them will jump higher when wearing the Air Jordans. Why? Maybe it's mental, who knows, who cares. If you like the Nike's, if you feel better wearing them and believe that your performance is better, then buy them. If you don't, it's your choice to buy the Adidas.

No need to slander and critisize Nike. No need to accuse Nike of tricking the consumer into buying a placebo shoe! Maybe something in there rubber works better, who knows, who cares - give me the blue and white pair!

I wonder how much "fun" sharing drinks with guys could really be?

Edited October 12, 2003 by thewineclip (log)

[thewineclip]

And allow me to add one more note. I try/test/use the wine clip on a weekly basis. Contrary to what you may have learned in Psych 101, I am not mentally pressed to say it works. Just the oposite, I am trying to find times when it doesn't. I haven't found a wine it doesn't work with. I will admit that the results are greater with some wines than with others.

Any one who has tried the clip, came away with no difference in taste and is willing to tell me the name and exact year of the red.... Well, I will try it, and if it doesn't work, I'll post so. You'll have to take me on my word.

Edited October 12, 2003 by thewineclip (log)

[tommy]

I appologize, I thought this site was called eGullet not eScience.

probably more correctly, eDiscussion.

[Fat Guy]

Out taste tests do prove something, that the wine clip is not nonsense.  Although these people do not have the Phd's you and the others may, they could care less about the Scientific theory behind it.  They are intelligent enough to know what they enjoy and don't need a phsychiatrist or Einstein to tell them differently.

I go back to the same thing I've said from the start. Don't like the wine clip, don't buy it.

I don't have all the answers and quite frankly I won't be looking for them either.

Of course, as with so many of the therapeutic claims for magnets, the endgame here will be a rejection of science by the proponents of this technology. That's because they know they won't be able to establish the efficacy of their product under double-blind laboratory conditions. If they could, they'd fund the studies. Instead, they will do everything in their power to load consumers up with rhetoric while avoiding the elephant in the living room: that no legitimate study supports the claims being made. What they're selling is most likely a placebo, and history has certainly shown that you can get rich selling placebos.

In many cases, however, it is also fraudulent to do so. For example, with respect to therapeutic magnets, there have been no less than five legal and regulatory actions chronicled by Stephen Barrett, M.D., on the QuackWatch.org site -- some of these have been criminal proceedings.

I suggest the Wine Clip people either fund a legitimate double-blind scientific study of the product, to be conducted by a third party, or they get lost. Also, I want to make very clear that if any eGullet material is quoted in Wine Clip promotional literature, we will come down on the company like a ton of bricks.

[slkinsey]

b. I've watched (as an observer and as the producer) more than 2k taste tests.  And I can recall each time someone could not taste a difference.  It's rare.  But then I have the results of this thread.

Anyone who understands experimental psychology knows that certain kinds of perceptual tests are guaranteed to produce certain results. The only kind of test that would truly demonstrate a real effect would be a double blind ABX type test with a statistical My training in psychology, for example, leaves me quite certain that I could conduct taste tests such as you describe using a nonmagnetic Wine Clip and achieve similar results. This does not mean that the Wine Clip doesn't work as you suggest... but it does mean that your "2k taste tests" prove exactly nothing.

I appologize, I thought this site was called eGullet not eScience.

Gastronomy and cooking are arts and sciences. If you want to produce "tests" as "evidence" of the efficacy of your product, you have to expect that people will apply their appropriate areas of expertise to your evidence. That's the way it works when you make claims. This is not a matter of taste (i.e., whether someone likes the flavor of salted or unsalted butter), it is a matter of science (i.e., either the wine is changed and really tastes different or it isn't and it doesn't).

Out taste tests do prove something, that the wine clip is not nonsense.  Although these people do not have the Phd's you and the others may, they could care less about the Scientific theory behind it.  They are intelligent enough to know what they enjoy and don't need a phsychiatrist or Einstein to tell them differently.

All the tests "prove" is that the "test" produces a certain result. As I said before, I am quite certain I could produce similar results using a nonmagnetic Wine Clip, or a crystal for that matter.

Do Nike sneakers make people jump higher than Adidas?  Place 2k people in a room and maybe 1990 of them will jump higher when wearing the Air Jordans.

I would absolutely dispute this assertion. 1990 of them will not jump higher wearing the Air Jordans. And, I would add, if Nike promoted their product as "making you jump higher" it would be a bogus claim. Now, if Nike did a double blind ABX test where test subjects jumped wearing different shoes, and if that test demonstrated a statistically significant difference between groups with the Nike wearing subjects jumping higher than they did with the other shoes... then it would be a marketing claim with some teeth. This is the difference between a bogus claim and a real claim. It is worthy of note that Nike makes no such claim.

Now... if you want to suggest that the Wine Clip might make people enjoy their wine more, I have no problem with that. I am sure it does for some people. I strongly suspect that any such enhancement is due to psychological factors affecting perception and relating to expectations rather than any real, verifiable differences in the flavor. Thus far, according to your own descriptions of the "testing" you have done, you have not demonstrated that there is a real difference between "regular" wine and "clipped" wine. This makes your claims as to an actual change in the flavor of the wine and your explanation of what happens to the wine and why some people might appreciate the Wine Clip unsupported and therefore bogus.

If you come onto a web site that is populated my educated, intelligent connoisseurs of food and wine, those people are going to want to know whether or not the flavor of the wine really changes -- not whether or not some people can perceive a change under certain conditions. You have demonstrated the latter. I don't think anyone here disputes that. You have not demonstrated the former. It's as simple as that.

[thewineclip]

Whatever.

Fat Guy: if you come down on me like a ton of bricks, please magnetize them first. Thanks.

[Alex]

Anyone who understands experimental psychology knows that certain kinds of perceptual tests are guaranteed to produce certain results. The only kind of test that would truly demonstrate a real effect would be a double blind ABX type test with a statistical analysis for significance if any difference was shown to exist.

As you noted, slkinsey, a few of our intrepid eGulleteers are in the process of doing such tests. I will be compiling the data and posting the results, including a statistical analysis.

Out taste tests do prove something, that the wine clip is not nonsense. Although these people do not have the Phd's you and the others may, they could care less about the Scientific theory behind it. They are intelligent enough to know what they enjoy and don't need a phsychiatrist or Einstein to tell them differently.

Dennis, your taste tests have proven nothing yet. There is a difference between preliminary market research (which is what you've done) and making unverified claims. Evidently you, like your customers, do not care about the scientific method. Earlier in this thread you vaguely alluded to an independent lab doing some double-blind testing but haven't mentioned anything about it since. But hey, if people are willing to buy a $79 placebo that costs all of maybe 6 dollars to manufacture, then more power to you. After the double-blind testing we'll see if I have reason to change my tune.

I go back to the same thing I've said from the start. Don't like the wine clip, don't buy it.

Obviously most people will not have had an opportunity to try the product before buying it. Will the web site and your retail outlets have a 90-day money-back return policy?

Any one who has tried the clip, came away with no difference in taste and is willing to tell me the name and exact year of the red.... Well, I will try it, and if it doesn't work, I'll post so.

Two have been posted here already. I'm sure that more will follow. When you taste, make sure it's a double-blind test and that you re-taste after the wine has rested in the glasses for five minutes.

Gastronomy and cooking are arts and sciences. If you want to produce "tests" as "evidence" of the efficacy of your product, you have to expect that people will apply their appropriate areas of expertise to your evidence. That's the way it works when you make claims.

What slkinsey said.

[Jason Perlow]

Oxidation in and of itself is also going to affect the flavor of the wine, depending on how long you keep the bottles open before you pour, and how long the wine sits in the glass before you drink it.

[fifi]

Being a certified SSB ( )... I have been following this thread with great interest. We have a lot of SSBs on this site that are far more qualified than I on this subject and if they are not reading this thread, I wish they would and chip in. I am too far removed, in years, from knowing a lot about this subject to comment intelligently. (Read... Hopelessly out of date.) Obviously, strong magnetic fields have an effect on atomic stuctures or we wouldn't be able to use those changes to produce images.

My position on whether or not it works... if anyone cares (about my opinion, that is )... I am going to keep an open mind. We know that the effect of magnetic fields on water systems doesn't work. That can be measured objectively. Magnet therapy? Probably not but I think the jury is still out. I prefer to keep an open mind (though skeptical) because the history of science is littered with the bodies of those imminent personages that made strong statements of what can and cannot be true.

An opinion... The taste tests are interesting in an anecdotal sense. Even in a double blind method, the sense of taste is too subjective and variable to be a true test. (I consider descriptions of wine tastings equivalent to trying to describe the color blue to a blind man.) You can come closer to the truth with a high enough population to approach evening out the variablity. I wish that twc's many taste tests had all been double blind and performed in an isolated laboratory setting so that the social pressure issues are eliminated.

A true test?... That would be demonstration that a magnetic field of whatever strength does change the configuration of the molecules that make up the taste components of wine. Then you would have to prove that the change in configuration actually changes the interaction with the taste buds. I suspect that we don't know enough about either to accomplish that. (But then, I am hopelessly out of date. BTW, if this is ever accomplished, you won't be able to go near a winery with your watches or credit cards. )

Prediction... Nothing conclusive will come out of all of this. There will be true believers and they will enjoy their Wine Clips. There will be those still on the fence, doomed to endlessly scratching their heads. But then, some head scratchers enjoy the activity. (A sense of wonder should never be lost.) There will be those that don't believe it at all and will be heavily weighted in the community that needs a "true test" to believe. If nothing else, the results will be one of the more interesting threads on eGullet.

Unrelated note... (Well, maybe.) I do have direct experience with the effect of magnetic fields on bacteria. Some mobile species do react to magnetic fields. There is a corrosion phenomenon called Microbiologically Influenced Corrosion (MIC). One type of MIC attacks stainless steel, drilling holes in pipes in a matter of weeks. The very strong preferrence is for the heat affected zones next to welds. One theory is that that zone causes a magnetic field that attracts the buggers to those sites. I have also seen migrations of bacteria under the microscope under the influence of magnetic fields. Does a magnetic field affect the biochemistry that makes bacteria function? Does that mean that there is some effect on organic molecules? Are any of those molecules present in wine and are also affected? (Do I get a prize for knowing how to use "affect" and "effect" correctly? )

[gsquared]

The taste tests are interesting in an anecdotal sense. Even in a double blind method, the sense of taste is too subjective and variable to be a true test.

I think it depends on what the test attempts to prove. Maybe a subjective and anecdotal positive test of the clip is actually more than sufficient to validate its efficacy - in a subjective sense. If I perceive a difference in my subjective experience of the taste of wine when using the clip, does it really matter an iota whether that perception is, scientifically speaking, illusory?

[thewineclip]

I informed Craig that I will no longer participate in the "sarcasm". There are a few who have gone too far and I don't appreciate it, especially after I've been nothing more than willing to put our product to this website's scrutiny.

What I will do is provide as many testimonials and informative content as I can find. Keep in mind, we are young and haven't built a library of testimonials from "experts". However, another magnetic product has - The Wine Cellar Express. We feel this product is inferior to ours. For one, you have to wait 30 minutes. Next, it's extremely boring. Last, the magnets are not rare earth (last time I checked, this may have changed). Regardless, how many marketers would ever mention or give kudos to their competitors? Not many. But I will.

Feel free to read as many as you like, because I'm about to post them.

I'd imagine these are people you know or respect?

[thewineclip]

The following experts have provided testimonials that can be found on www.winecellarexpress.com.

-Jekel Vineyards, California

-The Good Life, KNSS Newstalk 1240 AM, Kansas

-Marjorie St. Aubyn, Ph.D., The Wine Lady, Published author "Stay Healthy With Wine".

-Laurie O'Halloran - Publisher/Editor, Canada's Housewares Magazine

-Len Napolitano - Ventura Country Star, California

-Dean Tudor, Wine Writers' Circle of Canada

-Gord Stimmell - The Toronto Star

-Jim White Wine Access Magazine

-Tony Aspler the Wine Guy

-Alex Eberspaecher is a well-known Canadian wine critic, author, judge and conducts wine courses.

-Mary Ewing-Mulligan, president of the International Wine Center ( www.learnwine.com ) is the only American woman who is a Master of Wine. This title represents the highest level of knowledge and proficiency in the wine trade. Qualification as a MW is so rigorous that there are only 217 Masters of Wine in the world, and only 18 in America.

Edited October 12, 2003 by thewineclip (log)

[fifi]

The taste tests are interesting in an anecdotal sense. Even in a double blind method, the sense of taste is too subjective and variable to be a true test.

I think it depends on what the test attempts to prove. Maybe a subjective and anecdotal positive test of the clip is actually more than sufficient to validate its efficacy - in a subjective sense. If I perceive a difference in my subjective experience of the taste of wine when using the clip, does it really matter an iota whether that perception is, scientifically speaking, illusory?

I agree with you. If you are subjectively pleased with the results, who cares.

When I say "true test" I mean that in the highly objective scientific protocol sense.

[balex]

The taste tests are interesting in an anecdotal sense. Even in a double blind method, the sense of taste is too subjective and variable to be a true test.

I think it depends on what the test attempts to prove. Maybe a subjective and anecdotal positive test of the clip is actually more than sufficient to validate its efficacy - in a subjective sense. If I perceive a difference in my subjective experience of the taste of wine when using the clip, does it really matter an iota whether that perception is, scientifically speaking, illusory?

There are two questions: does the wine clip cause a real change in the wine? is that wine change perceptible by expert (or even non-experts)?

There is then a third question: does it improve the wine or make it worse?

The first two questions are perfectly reasonable empirical questions that can be answered using a controlled scientific procedure of a standard type. The third is a subjective question, to be answered after the first two -- i.e. not just yet. In any event, thewineclip appears to have conceded that there is no real effect, or that he is not interested in whether there is a real effect, so I am slightly losing interest in the argument.

These debates have been discussed at length by high-end audio types; a lot comes down to very fine details of how the tests are conducted.

As to whether it matters whether the perception is illusory - well it matters $79 or $99 or whatever the current price is. You can make your own wine clip yourself for $1, as long as you don't care whether it works or not.

[Alex]

Oxidation in and of itself is also going to affect the flavor of the wine, depending on how long you keep the bottles open before you pour, and how long the wine sits in the glass before you drink it.

One of my points exactly. That is why I recommended that a comparison be done both immediately after pouring and after five minutes in the glass. My (very preliminary) experience is that any difference disappears after a few minutes in the glass.