Sichuan Peppercorn

[Gary Soup]

Ben Hill Griffin's daughter is Katherine Harris - ex-secretary of state of Florida (of year 2000 presidential election news) - now a Congressperson. 

Invoking Katherine Harris's name is likely to drive more of us to Carlovski's side.

I think the point being made here is that no link has been established between Sichuan peppercorn and citrus canker. We've got a whole lot more loose Sichuan Peppercorns rolling around here in CA than in Florida, yet no citrus canker epidemics.

[pjs]

Gary,

I seem to remember that Zanthothoxylum is not a native plant on the west coast. I'll research further.

PJ

[Carlovski]

Don't mean to gloat, but I just chucked away a huge tub of the stuff because it was getting a bit stale....

[Gary Soup]

Gary,

I seem to remember that Zanthothoxylum is not a native plant on the west coast. I'll research further.

PJ

I don't think it is (though it certainly could be cultivated here). But that's not really the point. What's being banned is the importation of the harvested, dried buds, which travel from importer to retailer to end user to the wok. Where's the mechanism for infecting live citrus stock, of which we have plenty in California?

Edited February 5, 2004 by Gary Soup (log)

[jo-mel]

Gary,

I seem to remember that Zanthothoxylum is not a native plant on the west coast. I'll research further.

PJ

I don't think it is (though it certainly could be cultivated here). But that's not really the point. What's being banned is the importation of the harvested, dried buds, which travel from importer to retailer to end user to the wok. Where's the mechanism for infecting live citrus stock, of which we have plenty in California?

Time to bombard the Citrus Lobby, and F whateveritis A, with letters?

[Gary Soup]

Time to bombard the Citrus Lobby, and F whateveritis A, with letters?

I'll wait until after the Presidential election. The Florida citrus growers may have less "juice" in Washington come next January.

[robyn]

I'll wait until after the Presidential election.  The Florida citrus growers may have less "juice" in Washington come next January.

Not a chance. Agricultural protections and subsidies are very much a bi-partisan thing (witness Tom Daschle's and other Democrats' support of the outrageous farm subsidy bill). And most large agricultural interests tend to give liberally to politicians in both parties to hedge their bets (think the sugar interests in the US gave $100,000 to Bush - and $100,000 to Gore - in the last election). In Florida - we have a Republican governor - 2 Democratic Senators - and many Congresspeople on both sides of the aisle. Never heard one of them speak against state agricultural interests. Robyn

[robyn]

I don't think it is (though it certainly could be cultivated here).  But that's not really the point.  What's being banned is the importation of the harvested, dried buds, which travel  from importer to retailer to end user to the wok.  Where's the mechanism for infecting live citrus stock, of which we have plenty in California?

I am not a botanist - but I assume the theory is that the buds have seeds. You throw one in the compost heap and it grows into a plant. Then it self-seeds all over the place.

By the way - not only is the citrus industry opposed to importing many exotic plants and plant parts. So are many environmentalists in states like Hawaii and Florida where exotics can get out of control quickly and destroy native habitats. So this isn't only a question of big bad agricultural corporations against a bunch of foodies.

If this is such a popular food item - why doesn't someone grow it as a domestic crop? There's usually no problem with that as long as the growers comply with all local agricultural rules in whatever areas this plant happens to grow best - and it isn't an invasive exotic. We have lots of new boutique food crops in Florida these days - e.g., Latin American vegetables - in response to domestic consumer demand. Robyn

[robyn]

Ah yes. Katherine Harris. Have all the god-awful lawsuits over inherited citrus money between her and her siblings been settled yet?

What we're dealing with here is an ancient, no longer relevent regulation--dated nineteen-fifty, fuckin' nine--barring imports based on speculation.

Jeez, I recently viewed an aerial survey of Cocoa Beach taken in the '60's. There were orange groves everywhere. I don't think their almost total absence today is due to a freakin' spice from Asia.

PJ

I live in a different part of the state than Kartherine Harris. Have never read about her lawsuits.

As for citrus in the middle of the Florida peninsula (including Cocoa Beach and lots of the Orlando area) - its disappearance didn't have anything to do with canker. There was a series of 3 major freezes (I seem to recall it was in the 70's - maybe early 80's). A mature citrus tree can survive one freeze - it's crippled after 2 - and 3 strikes and you're out. After that - most of the central Florida citrus industry moved further south. A lot of citrus was planted in areas that had previously been used for crops like sugar. Robyn

[robyn]

Invoking Katherine Harris's name is likely to drive more of us to  Carlovski's side.

I think the point being made here is that no link has been established between Sichuan peppercorn and citrus canker.  We've got a whole lot more loose Sichuan Peppercorns rolling around here in CA than in Florida, yet no citrus canker epidemics.

Well - Senators Graham and Nelson are both Democrats and in favor of citrus too. Maybe there's someone on a city commission in Florida who's against the citrus industry - but - if there is - I've never heard of that person.

I really don't know much about citrus canker except that it's been a huge problem in Florida in recent years. Also - I know that most of the citrus grown here (mostly juice oranges) is different than most of the citrus grown in California (mostly eating oranges). Perhaps the different varieties of trees have different resistances to canker. I did a little reading on the internet too. It suggested that differences in the humidity levels in both states (Florida has high humidity - California has low humidity) may make a difference too.

By the way - the canker in Florida is called Asiatic citrus canker. Which may explain the ban on Asiatic citrus products.

I live in north Florida - which isn't a citrus area of the state. But I have a Meyer lemon tree with a metal tag with all kinds of agricultural information on it. That tree probably went through more inspections than an airport full of airline passengers. Robyn

[pjs]

Ah yes. Katherine Harris. Have all the god-awful lawsuits over inherited citrus money between her and her siblings been settled yet?

What we're dealing with here is an ancient, no longer relevent regulation--dated nineteen-fifty, fuckin' nine--barring imports based on speculation.

Jeez, I recently viewed an aerial survey of Cocoa Beach taken in the '60's. There were orange groves everywhere. I don't think their almost total absence today is due to a freakin' spice from Asia.

PJ

I live in a different part of the state than Kartherine Harris. Have never read about her lawsuits.

As for citrus in the middle of the Florida peninsula (including Cocoa Beach and lots of the Orlando area) - its disappearance didn't have anything to do with canker. There was a series of 3 major freezes (I seem to recall it was in the 70's - maybe early 80's). A mature citrus tree can survive one freeze - it's crippled after 2 - and 3 strikes and you're out. After that - most of the central Florida citrus industry moved further south. A lot of citrus was planted in areas that had previously been used for crops like sugar. Robyn

I agree. I misworded that last sentence, I meant due to canker. It was a rant against big agri-business. More on how these independents are being squeezed out can be found in this recent Daytona Beach News-Journal article.

Economic pressures and cold-weather snaps have taken a toll on Volusia County citrus growers, leaving only a few dozen family-owned operations producing 350,000 boxes, or about 31.5 million pounds, of fruit this year. It's a waning Volusia industry that in 1981 produced 1.2 million boxes and competed heartily with counties further south and west, according to state figures.

Also note how the Brazilians are shouldering their way in:

The industry's hard days aren't over in Volusia or anywhere else in the state. A record crop is keeping prices low this year at a time when demand for fresh fruit and juice already is down. Plus, Brazilian citrus growers are fighting to end a tariff on their cheaper orange juice that, if removed, could further undercut U.S. growers, said Tom Spreen, chair of the University of Florida Food and Resource Economics Department.

Brazilian companies already own all the citrus juice processing plants in Florida, except one -- Florida's Natural in Lake Wales, Spreen added.

Current thought is that the canker bacteria is spread by the severe wind-blown afternoon rainstorms that are common to south Florida. The rain washes the bacteria from an infected tree and carries it another. In fact they used this theory in devising their 1,900' radius of culling around an infected tree.

Gary, I was thinking that the bacteria could lie dormant or geographically isolated in a native wild plant, waiting for the next hurricane. Trees infected with the strain from the 1986 outbreak--a different strain than the current 1995 outbreak--were found in the late 90's. BTW, there is no prickly ash west of the rockies.

As to Szechuan Peppercorns causing citrus canker, from what I've read I'd first have to find some infected peppercorns. I'd have to grind them up, maybe make a paste out of them. Then I would need to find a citrus tree. This would be difficult if I didn't live in Florida, California or Texas. Finally I'd have to rub the paste or power into the plants leaves. I wonder if the bacteria is even viable in the dried state of the spice.

PJ

[robyn]

PJS - I think that what the freezes started in central Florida - development finished off. Volusia County was next to nothing when we moved to Florida 30 years ago (except for the resort of Daytona Beach and the small county seat/college town of Deland). Today - coastal development has spread in the eastern part of the county - and the western part of the county is becoming a suburb of Orlando.

You're right about citrus prices being down. One crop that has been particularly hard hit lately is grapefruit (due to certain concerns about - if I recall correctly - medicines common among the elderly not working properly if you consume grapefruit). On the other hand - there are people like me who use grapefruit a lot more in cooking since they started putting those fresh peeled pink grapefruit sections in jars. Guess one of me doesn't make up for all the people who stopped eating grapefruit though. Then of course - there is also the competition from Brazil.

I think that the citrus industry in Florida will be finished off sooner or later - and that the primary causes will be development and foreign competition - not canker. It's kind of sad. I've always enjoyed the agricultural aspects of the state.

From what I've read about sichuan peppers - they're basically a dried citrus flower - and - in their most common form - they contain seeds. Whether the flowers/seeds can be infected with canker - or be a vector in spreading canker if they grow to trees - I don't know. I know there are all kinds of theories about canker - but none has been proven with any degree of scientific certainty at this point. Robyn

[jo-mel]

Well, I guess I have Sichuan Peppercorns on my mind!

In a dream, last night, I found myself in a bright, colorful, glittery Chinatown. I went to a store, and in Chinese, I asked for the pepper. They gave me a big bag full -- the size of a big bag of sugar!! LOL!

Anyone want some? (In your dreams!!)

In the Feb. 4 NYT's article, a spokesman for the Agricultural Dept. could not point to any study or research that showed the dried peppercorn carried the disease, and could not say whether there was a case of peppercorn contaminating the citrus trees.

So, do they plan to check it out??

[Pan]

I am not a botanist - but I assume the theory is that the buds have seeds. You throw one in the compost heap and it grows into a plant.

If any eGulleteers are able to grow plants from dried Sichuan peppercorns, I hope they'll be gracious enough to tell us about it!

[pjs]

If any eGulleteers are able to grow plants from dried Sichuan peppercorns, I hope they'll be gracious enough to tell us about it!

I bought a couple of packets yesterday to bolster the personal stockpile. This batch smells incredible but is still lacking on the 9Volt (ma la) scale in the raw state. Upon seeing your post Michael, I picked out a dozen or so tiny, shiny black seeds and will try to germinate them.

PJ

[Pan]

Good luck, PJ!

[robyn]

I am not a botanist - but I assume the theory is that the buds have seeds.  You throw one in the compost heap and it grows into a plant.

If any eGulleteers are able to grow plants from dried Sichuan peppercorns, I hope they'll be gracious enough to tell us about it!

I read a little about the culture on the internet. It's not a super easy thing to grow. Apparently - it's hard to get the seeds to germinate. Also - you need both male and female plants for pollination. So you have to plant more than one. And you need a suitable substitute vector for pollination (since the plants aren't native to the US).

By the way - the plant is only hardy to zone 6. That kind of surprised me - since there's hardly any domestic citrus that is hardy north of zone 8. So that piece of information might be wrong.

On the other hand - there is at least one company in the US that sells plants on the internet. So - if you're a devoted gardener and willing to give it some research and time and effort - it might be worth a try. I'd check on any state agricultural regs before buying and importing plants from out of state though (not only with this plant - with any plant - most states that produce crops - and that's almost all states - have regs to protect them).

I'm a pretty decent gardener - and if I were interested - I'd probably buy a half dozen established plants on the internet to give myself a fighting chance. I didn't find any information about how long it takes this plant to go from seed to mature plant (capable of producing flowers) - but - with most plants - you're talking about a bunch of years. Robyn

[pjs]

Off-Topic:

Robyn, since you travel the length of the state, Jacksonville to Miami, you might want to check-out the sleepy agriculturally-sustained towns in central South Florida some time. I travel down US27 to Sebring often. One of my favorite Sebring memories is driving down a two-lane bisecting the orange groves very early in the morning in the spring. The scent of orange blossom was heavy, the bees were buzzing, and the fog was just starting to lift. It was like being on another planet.

On Topic:

My seeds are doing squat.

PJ

Edited February 8, 2004 by pjs (log)

[robyn]

Off-Topic:

Robyn, since you travel the length of the state, Jacksonville to Miami, you might want to check-out the sleepy agriculturally-sustained towns in central South Florida some time. I travel down US27 to Sebring often. One of my favorite Sebring memories is driving down a two-lane bisecting the orange groves very early in the morning in the spring. The scent of orange blossom was heavy, the bees were buzzing, and the fog was just starting to lift. It was like being on another planet.

On Topic:

My seeds are doing squat.

PJ

My husband and I both practiced law state-wide for a fair number of years. So we have been just about everywhere - many times. My husband once spent a week in Sebring trying a case. Way back then - it was a little strange. But now you can get home delivery of the New York Times there. So times have changed .

How are you trying to sprout the seeds? It really isn't germination time for hardly anything now in the US no matter where you live. March is about the earliest time seeds like to sprout. Like I said before - if I were interested in trying to grow this - I'd probably buy some small plants off the internet (after checking agricultural regs). Robyn

[pjs]

Sebring is still strange. I think that's why I like it in small doses. BTW the best place for lunch there is the airport.

I'm just trying to see if I can get the seeds to germinate, not necessarily to plant, so I placed them in-between sheets of moistened paper toweling and have been keeping them moist, but nothing is happening. I've have lots more seeds, so if you have a better method of germinating let me know.

PJ

[robyn]

Sebring is still strange. I think that's why I like it in small doses. BTW the best place for lunch there is the airport.

I'm just trying to see if I can get the seeds to germinate, not necessarily to plant, so I placed them in-between sheets of moistened paper toweling and have been keeping them moist, but nothing is happening. I've have lots more seeds, so if you have a better method of germinating let me know.

PJ

I got this off a high class botanical site. I have no idea what half of it means . Looks like it's not your normal plant in the ground and it sprouts 2 weeks later kind of seed. Robyn

Propagation Notes: Seed - best sown in a greenhouse as soon as it is ripe in the autumn. Stored seed may requires up to 3 months cold stratification, though scaritication may also help[113]. Sow stored seed in a cold frame as early in the year as possible. Germination should take place in late spring, though it might take another 12 months. Prick out the seedlings into individual pots when they are large enough to handle and grow them on in a cold frame for their first winter. Plant them out in early summer. Cuttings of half-ripe wood, July/August in a frame. Root cuttings, 3cm long, planted horizontally in pots in a greenhouse. Good percentage[78]. Suckers, removed in late winter and planted into their permanent positions[113].

[memesuze]

Sounds as though you need to park those puppies in the fridge for three months and score them to allow the "hull" of the seed to be free enough to let the germinating seed pop out. Not sure whether you score them before or after the cold storage. Check out Jill Nokes' How to Grow Native Plants of Texas and the Southwest, ch.3 is 13 pages of germination information.

table of contents on germination

Or some other tome on germinating.....

[theabroma]

I'll wait until after the Presidential election.  The Florida citrus growers may have less "juice" in Washington come next January.

Not a chance. Agricultural protections and subsidies are very much a bi-partisan thing (witness Tom Daschle's and other Democrats' support of the outrageous farm subsidy bill). And most large agricultural interests tend to give liberally to politicians in both parties to hedge their bets (think the sugar interests in the US gave $100,000 to Bush - and $100,000 to Gore - in the last election). In Florida - we have a Republican governor - 2 Democratic Senators - and many Congresspeople on both sides of the aisle. Never heard one of them speak against state agricultural interests. Robyn

?????????????????????????????

That's a lotta sichuan peppercorns, prickly ash, and diaper rash!

If the subject is still the sichuan peppercorn, read Barbara Tropp (The Modern Art of Chinese Cooking or China Moon Cookbook) on the subject. Seems in times past in China, courtesans would scatter them in their beds. Presumably for the fragrance. Cannot imagine it would be for the numbness.

If, however, the topic is still oranges and Katherine Harris, the woman who stole the 'Hair by WeedEater, Makeup by Crayola' crown from us here in Texas, we could always ponder any uses she might make of the peppercorn ... or the capsicum.

Theabroma

[pjs]

Sounds as though you need to park those puppies in the fridge for three months and score them to allow the "hull" of the seed to be free enough to let the germinating seed pop out. Not sure whether you score them before or after the cold storage. Check out Jill Nokes' How to Grow Native Plants of Texas and the Southwest, ch.3 is 13 pages of germination information.

table of contents on germination 

Or some other tome on germinating.....

Thanks for that info, memesuze. I assumed seeds that resembled small ball-bearings would be hard to propagate.

PJ

[Mabelline]

I would like to see actual data on the spread of the citrus canker to the trees. ----especially since this warning went out so long ago.  Is the power of the citrus farmers so strong that the entire country is held hostage?  How come the citrus farmers in California are not mentioned?

I'm getting ticked!

I don't recall that California citrus growers have had problems with canker lately. There are lots of problems with canker in Florida.

Agriculture is the second largest industry in Florida - which is the fourth largest state in the country. So the industry is kind of important politically. And influential in terms of money too. After all - the name on the University of Florida football stadium is "Ben Hill Griffin" (one of the largest citrus growers in the state) - not Wong's Chinese Restaurant. Ben Hill Griffin's daughter is Katherine Harris - ex-secretary of state of Florida (of year 2000 presidential election news) - now a Congressperson. Robyn (long time resident of Florida)

Florida may be big in agriculture, but it's not the fourth largest state by area. That would be --ahem--Montana.

#1Alaska:656,425 sq. miles

#2Texas:268,601 sq. miles

#3California:163,707 sq. miles

#4Montana:147,046 sq. miles

#22: Florida:65,758 sq. miles