John Boos Kitchen countertop experience

[budrichard]

I'm new to eGullet and so far find the site interesting. As we have just completed our kitchen overhaul, you might find this information helpful.

After listening to and throwing two so called kitchen design experts out of my house, I took on the task myself. As a Nuclear Engineer and self taught amateur chef for the last 12 years, I figured I could do better than what I was being told. Since I wanted a functional kitchen, after surveying all the countertop materials available, I decided on John Boos 4" end grain maple http://www.johnboos.com for the food processing areas and Boos 1&3/4" edge grain maple around the 4 burner Viking so the countertop was not higher than the burner flames. The retail kitchen supply store in Milwaukee Wisconsin that sold Boos could offer no information on 4" Boos so the contracter obtained the materials from the commercial supplier. A Franke Manor House pro sink and Franke pot faucet completed that area(homecenter.com has significant savings on Franke). Our pass thru bar was also redone using the Boos edge grain maple. Using the 4" Boos raises your countertop height which actually allows a better height for a male as I have found that kitchens are invariably designed for smaller stature individuals. The Boos is no problem to maintain and you don';t have to worry about cutting boards or scratches. You do have to seal using clear RTV around the sink and joints and use Boos polyurathane which has a satin finish on the edge grain. The end grain requires periodic oiling with Boos food grade mineral oil.

The Franke sink is a dream. One big area for whatever you want to do with none of these little boutique areas that are essentially worthless. When you order the sink, be sure to obtain a Franke drain or otherwise you will have your contracter using something from Home Depot.

I also installed a Kitchenaid 60 bottle wine cooler under one of the countertops. A good unit but the stacking is quirky.

My wife who was very reluctant at the start is extremely pleased with the end result. The look is classic and functional. With a Viking SS 4 burner, Kitchenaid appliances in SS, things match. I investigated Sub Zero and would have installed Sub Zero but the frequency of repair was the worst in the industry not too mention the price differential was obscene. The Kitchenaid bottom freezer replaced our two year old Amana because the freezer units slide all the way out to facilitate item removal. We have gone from a 18 ft3 unit to a 22 ft3 and could use more space. the Amana is in the basement and I keep both units full of produce. If I had it to do over again, I would install the largest unit I could shoehorn into the area. -Dick

[Fat Guy]

I'd love to see some photographs (particularly if you have a fusion-powered camera).

Isn't it amazing how incompetent so many kitchen designers are? Has any middle-class person had a good experience with a residential kitchen designer? Or are all the good ones working exclusively on high-end and restaurant kitchens?

[hwilson41]

Isn't it amazing how incompetent so many kitchen designers are? Has any middle-class person had a good experience with a residential kitchen designer? Or are all the good ones working exclusively on high-end and restaurant kitchens?

FG; my guess would be the latter (working on high end), although I really don't know. What I do know is that there is a vast amount of skim milk masquerading as cream out there, and the kitchen designers I've encountered are astonishingly short on common sense. I consulted two "kitchen designers" about 10 years ago when we tore our kitchen out to the studs and remodeled, and ended up rejecting both and doing the design work myself. Like some of the avant garde dishes that are so common these days, it may sound sexy and look "modern", but it just doesn't work, nor does it make any sense (a frequently overlooked criterion IMHO ).

THW

[budrichard]

I actually did do fusion research in the 70's at the University of Wisconsin before joining the commercial power industry, but a camera never developed(pun?). Since I am still in the film age, no pics yet. As soon as I find a decent price on the Nikon SQ my wife wants, pics will be forthcoming.

One last note: From conceptualization to finish has been two years. The actual construction time was about a week with some final detail work left to be done. We hope to be completely done by Thanksgiving.

The contracter we eventually used had replaced our rear deck. The first two contracters I worked with were told to hit the road. One was concerned over the heavy lifting of the Boos block and really did not want the job and the other simply never showed up to start the work! The eventual contracter did a good job and listened to my needs and advice. Together we engineered the kitchen, not from actual calculations for weight and stress, but from engineering judgement. Since I built Nuclear Power Plants, a kitchen redesign was easy. No paperwork!

Functionality, reliability and a sense of design were the goals. Cost was secondary. Since I had already installed the Viking 10 years ago, that was not a decision point, but given what I see in today's market, I think Viking would still be the choice. If i had it to do over again, I would remove counter space and go with at least a 36" viking unit if not larger. As it was the 30" unit and hood slotted right in. The hood installation cost as much as normal range. I have read a number of negative comments on this site about Viking but my personal experience is quite different.

At the EXPO MART in Chicago, Franke is the sink of choice and frankly if it's Swiss, it's the best engineered product in the world. It is also the best manufactured and most costly in the world.

I would have preferred Sub Zero for the aplliances but it's reliability is shoddy and I will not reward that type of performance with a purchase. Kitchenaid while having none of the cachet of boutique manufacturers is reliable, functional and everything matches. Cost is certainly acceptable. The SS microwave is the best out there and cooks rice, potatoes and other things in AUTO. Of course their countertop appliances are bullet proof.-Dick

[feliciahorowitz]

Can you put a hot pot on the Boos counter without worrying about burning it?

[Blondie]

Isn't it amazing how incompetent so many kitchen designers are? Has any middle-class person had a good experience with a residential kitchen designer? Or are all the good ones working exclusively on high-end and restaurant kitchens?

All of the kitchen designers I know would be considered high-end designers and all of them have more work than they can handle, nearly all of it referrals from satisfied clients. Most of them will do what would be considered mid-range jobs on occasion, mostly as a favor to a friend or maybe the daughter of a previous client who has just purchased a starter home. Typically there’s not enough profit in these jobs to bother pursuing them. My guess is that most “designers” working on mid-range kitchens are attached to showrooms/home centers and are really just sales people, not trained designers.

I’ve found that people interviewing designers are very reluctant to follow up on references or ask to be taken to completed jobs. If a designer has nothing to hide this should not be a problem. Why would someone neglect this step considering what a kitchen renovation typically costs?

[fyfas]

Bud, interesting reading and excellent comments.

Just two things based on my own very recent experiene with a to-the-studs remodel...

I did not choose Viking for they seem to be going through a reliability problem the last year or so. Part of that could be a regional, service issue (I'm in New Mexico). Both of the sellers locally (Albuquerque and Santa Fe) discouraged me on Viking but were glad to recommend DCS/Wolf/Dacor etc. I went with Wolf and, so far, am very happy. I note your Viking is ten years old, correct ? Ten years ago they were defining the concept of high-end kitchens for other than the carriage trade. They changed it all for everyone who came afterwards. I wouldn't be surprised if their products then were different/better than today.

Secondly, as to Kitchen-Aid... a few years ago I redid a small high-rise condo in Los Angeles and used Kitchen-Aid across the board. Because of that experience and because of their reputation for the quietest dishwasher, I put their best in this remodel; the only Kitchen-Aid appliance bought. Well, it is the only thing that has failed. Four times and it is only six months-installed. All computer circuitry failing. It is in the process of being replaced under the State's "lemon laws". Their serviceman, who represents several brands, said Kitchen-Aid went downhill once Maytag started making certain products for them. (Serviceman, by the way, hotwired around the offending circuitry so the machine "worked" each time Kitchen-Aid would attempt to replace different parts. Meantime, I moved a new fire extinguisher close by.)

All of that to remind anyone reading this and about to embark on a major project, determine who actually makes the item you're buying for whoever puts their name on it. Another example: Amana makes many of the refrigerators sold under other names.

[Dave the Cook]

Isn't it amazing how incompetent so many kitchen designers are? Has any middle-class person had a good experience with a residential kitchen designer? Or are all the good ones working exclusively on high-end and restaurant kitchens?

All of the kitchen designers I know would be considered high-end designers and all of them have more work than they can handle, nearly all of it referrals from satisfied clients. Most of them will do what would be considered mid-range jobs on occasion, mostly as a favor to a friend or maybe the daughter of a previous client who has just purchased a starter home. Typically there’s not enough profit in these jobs to bother pursuing them. My guess is that most “designers” working on mid-range kitchens are attached to showrooms/home centers and are really just sales people, not trained designers.

I’ve found that people interviewing designers are very reluctant to follow up on references or ask to be taken to completed jobs. If a designer has nothing to hide this should not be a problem. Why would someone neglect this step considering what a kitchen renovation typically costs?

Not to dispute what Blondie has said in any way, but I think too many kitchen designers are not so much specialists in kitchen functionality and ergonomics as they are general-practice interior designers who are familiar with the materials and the infrastructure of kitchens (and usually bathrooms). In my experience (not that it's all that extensive, but I look at a lot of design magazines), the most common result of a kitchen redesign is a beautiful room whose essential purpose has been disregarded in favor of misguided aesthetics. They look better, but their utility is rarely improved.

Finally, I'll point you back to the O'Neill article we were all reading last week:

When reporting a story for The New Yorker several years ago, I found that the less people cook, the more money they spend on cooking appliances. Like the people who stood in line to buy my cookbook, people bought professional-grade ranges in the hope that they would one day use them.

[Alex]

Secondly, as to Kitchen-Aid...  a few years ago I redid a small high-rise condo in Los Angeles and used Kitchen-Aid across the board.  Because of that experience and because of their reputation for the quietest  dishwasher, I put their best in this remodel; the only Kitchen-Aid appliance bought.  Well, it is the only thing that has failed.  Four times and it is only six months-installed.  All computer circuitry failing.  It is in the process of being replaced under the State's "lemon laws".  Their serviceman, who represents several brands, said Kitchen-Aid went downhill once Maytag started making certain products for them.  Another example:  Amana makes many of the refrigerators sold under other names.

I upgraded to a KitchenAid dishwasher about a year ago and so far, so good. :knocking on wood: Did the service person tell you which of their products are made by Maytag? Ditto refrigerators made by Amana?

[Suvir Saran]

Isn't it amazing how incompetent so many kitchen designers are? Has any middle-class person had a good experience with a residential kitchen designer? Or are all the good ones working exclusively on high-end and restaurant kitchens?

All of the kitchen designers I know would be considered high-end designers and all of them have more work than they can handle, nearly all of it referrals from satisfied clients. Most of them will do what would be considered mid-range jobs on occasion, mostly as a favor to a friend or maybe the daughter of a previous client who has just purchased a starter home. Typically there’s not enough profit in these jobs to bother pursuing them. My guess is that most “designers” working on mid-range kitchens are attached to showrooms/home centers and are really just sales people, not trained designers.

I’ve found that people interviewing designers are very reluctant to follow up on references or ask to be taken to completed jobs. If a designer has nothing to hide this should not be a problem. Why would someone neglect this step considering what a kitchen renovation typically costs?

Blondie, you raise very good points.

I agree that most people do almost no reference check before hiring designers (or what comes camoflages in that name). If they hired trained experts, they would not have to worry. I remember the CEO of a very large conglomerate, hiring me for a very important party as a caterer, interviewed me personally, he had made his staff check my references, he had eaten my food at another party... when he asked me for my rate... and what I would deliver for that amount, I had a shy grin and said I am sorry if I am expensive... and even before he said anything else, he said to me "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". That has stayed in my memory for the longest of time. Now when I hire another professional, I do my research, and if this person is one I want to use, I do not debate price after a certain point. And since it is their talent and expertise I am after, I hire them with no cares.

There are not as many trained professional kitchen designers out there as we think. Many interior designers simply agree and take on Kitchen Design without any proven track record. The people hiring them do not care to check on their expertise in this specialized field. Those that are trained, can be of great help to even the most active of us home cooks. The difference between a sales person taking on the role of a designer/interior designer also working on a kitchen and a professional kitchen designer is night and day.

Blondie, I wish my landlady had hired a trained professional for our new kitchen. It is amazing, a chefs dream and all that, but having cooked daily in it for the last couple of months, I am sure a trained eye would have brought me many more comforts. I would have even paid half of the expense of hiring a trained person and not just the person sent by a home center.

[Blondie]

Not to dispute what Blondie has said in any way, but I think too many kitchen designers are not so much specialists in kitchen functionality and ergonomics as they are general-practice interior designers who are familiar with the materials and the infrastructure of kitchens (and usually bathrooms). In my experience (not that it's all that extensive, but I look at a lot of design magazines), the most common result of a kitchen redesign is a beautiful room whose essential purpose has been disregarded in favor of misguided aesthetics. They look better, but their utility is rarely improved.

Dave, I agree that many kitchens are designed by those who are not specialists in the field. Once a client hires a general interior designer and establishes that relationship (which can take a considerable period of time, not to mention developing a level of trust), they are very likely to allow that designer who, as you say may not be a kitchen specialist, to do the kitchen just to avoid having to go through the same process with a kitchen designer.

Hopefully these designers are not trying to sell themselves as kitchen specialists if that isn’t their field of expertise, but unfortunately the design field is full of people with no training whatsoever, and the vast majority of potential clients are clueless as to the important questions to ask to ascertain whether the designer is competent. That is why I continue to stress thoroughly checking references and seeing previous jobs. The National Kitchen and Bath Association does confer certification (CKD - Certified Kitchen Designer, among others) to those with a number of years experience and education, and the passing of a certification test. This is no guarantee that the designer is great, but it’s a start.

Finally, I'll point you back to the O'Neill article we were all reading last week:

When reporting a story for The New Yorker several years ago, I found that the less people cook, the more money they spend on cooking appliances. Like the people who stood in line to buy my cookbook, people bought professional-grade ranges in the hope that they would one day use them.

People who are insecure or don’t know what they want are very susceptible to the fantasy that if they just had a great kitchen they would cook every day, entertain all the time, etc. Many designers will take advantage and upsell when they can get away with it. Sad, but true.

[Suvir Saran]

When reporting a story for The New Yorker several years ago, I found that the less people cook, the more money they spend on cooking appliances. Like the people who stood in line to buy my cookbook, people bought professional-grade ranges in the hope that they would one day use them.

Money spent on appliances, or money spent on buying cookwar or servingware or utensils, hardly ever would equal the passion some have to cook and share.

We read recently in the NY Times about the lady who cooked using her fireplace. One that wants to create magic in culinary terms, and one that wants to share it with family and friends, hardly needs money to be spent to do so. Where there is a will, there is a way... is that now what they say?

I know many a famous chef that have very small and limited kitchen spaces and no appliances worth mentioning at all. But within these constraints, in their home environs as well, they prepare some of the best meals served in their cities those nights.

Going back to topic though, a trained kitchen designer has the talent of balancing aesthetics very carefully with the more important task at hand in the kitchen, that of functionality and ease of food preparation. Whilst some of us may think we know it all, a trained professional can come and give us little examples of brilliance that we would hardly have guessed alone.

Blondie, do you know how many kitchen designers graduate in NYC? A rough estimate even? I am sure there are not many hundreds graduating from the certified schools to fill all those kitchen and home design centers in malls. What do you think and know?

[budrichard]

You are correct in that my Viking is at least 10 years old at that time the market was small.

We don't put hot pans directly on the Boos but if it was scortched, a simple sanding and oiling would refinish.

A word about sales people. Invariably when I define a target purchase, some sales person will try to dissuade me from the purchase. What I have learned over the years is that sales people are only interested in the maximum commission they make on a sale. So if the markup is greater on a similar product, that is what they will push. I start every negotiation now, by reminding them that I will purchase what I want, not what they want me to purchase and any attempt to dissuade me with incorrect information, heresay or inuendo will result in my not making a purchase. I want documented information. Stops any attempts cold. Sales people also are too lazy to know thier products and invariably I understand the product better. Comes from the engineering training ,maybe or my inherent attention to detail.

Any refrig with a bottom freezer is made by Amana. don't know about Sub Zero.

As I posted the only reason for the new Kitchenaid was more storage and the slide out units. In Charlie Trotter's kitchen, all the produce is on slide out trays in the cold storage unit. I tought that was great! BTW, the kitchen table is not worth the money or the wait!

We are located between Chicago and Milwaukee and could not find a competant designer at any price! Nor could we find an expereinced kitchen installer at any price. -Dick

[marie-louise]

I have the utmost respect for architects, and have had nothing but positive experiences working with both them and the contractors I've hired to make their designs a reality. That being said, sometimes you just have to ignore them and insist on what you want. Once you're an experienced enough cook, no one could possibly know better than you what you want out of a kitchen. Where the refrigerator goes, whether you have one oven or two, and whether the dishwasher is to the left or the right of the sink-there's no one "right" answer. It depends on what makes sense for how you cook.

Where architects/ designers are useful is in designing a beautiful space. They understand light, scale, and spatial relationships in a way that I never will. No matter how much they interview you, it is an unfair expectation to think that they will come up with a better kitchen than you can. The synergy comes when you can say, "I need x number of cabinets for my dishes, along with this big and this brand of refrigerator, which I want to go to the left of the stove, and the height of my island should be x inches. They can then design a well-proportioned space, with the right lines and shapes of cabinets that are in scale with the appliances you've chosen, pick mouldings and windows that will give you a balanced light, and so on. At the end of the day, you'll have a better kitchen than if you let them make all the decisions, or than if you designed it without professional assistance.

The next step is to respect your contractor's suggestions (assuming of course you did your homework and hired one on the basis of their reputation, not because they were the lowest bid.) Architects design for beauty ("form over function"); contractors can head you off some bad design ideas that may look great but won't work well (because the contractor is always the one that has to come back and fix them. )

[Blondie]

Money spent on appliances, or money spent on buying cookwar or servingware or utensils, hardly ever would equal the passion some have to cook and share.

We read recently in the NY Times about the lady who cooked using her fireplace.  One that wants to create magic in culinary terms, and one that wants to share it with family and friends, hardly needs money to be spent to do so.  Where there is a will, there is a way... is that now what they say?

I know many a famous chef that have very small and limited kitchen spaces and no appliances worth mentioning at all.  But within these constraints, in their home environs as well, they prepare some of the best meals served in their cities those nights.

FWIW I’m not working in the field any more, partly because of the boredom of doing yet another white-painted-beadboard-cabinetry-granite-countertop-stainless-steel-appliance-brushed-nickel-hardware kitchen that will never get used. My aesthetic is very modern, and I like working with interesting and affordable materials, innovative ergonomic solutions with function as a primary motivator, and that’s just not what most Americans want in their kitchens. They want the fantasy, regardless of how well it functions, but as you say, for those who *do* use their kitchens, function is all.

Going back to topic though, a trained kitchen designer has the talent of balancing aesthetics very carefully with the more important task at hand in the kitchen, that of functionality and ease of food preparation.  Whilst some of us may think we know it all, a trained professional can come and give us little examples of brilliance that we would hardly have guessed alone.

Blondie, do you know how many kitchen designers graduate in NYC?  A rough estimate even?  I am sure there are not many hundreds graduating from the certified schools to fill all those kitchen and home design centers in malls.  What do you think and know?

As far as I know none of the design schools offer very good training in kitchen design. I attended one of the top interior design schools in the country and from what I can tell the undergrad-level course offered in kitchen design was no match for my 3+ years working for a good designer. The advantage of a design school education is more in giving the student a background in architecture and aesthetics, as well as the technical aspects, drafting and so on, that allow the designer to not only to convey the design, but to discover any weaknesses or flaws before it’s too late.

And no, there are not nearly enough educated designers to fill the home centers and malls, and frankly most of the people I went to school with would starve before they’d put on an orange Home Depot apron. As I said before, my guess is that many of the home center “designers” are sales people who get a bit of training, but are there to sell the goods their company offers, not necessarily to design a workable kitchen. I know there are many exceptions, but the only way to determine is to ask for references, see previous projects, and carefully interview past clients (without the designer present).

[Dave the Cook]

. . . frankly most of the people I went to school with would starve before they’d put on an orange Home Depot apron . . .

That's too bad. I think designers could learn a lot in an "apprenticeship" at a place like Home Depot -- stuff that would help them become better designers.

[Blondie]

. . . frankly most of the people I went to school with would starve before they’d put on an orange Home Depot apron . . .

That's too bad. I think designers could learn a lot in an "apprenticeship" at a place like Home Depot -- stuff that would help them become better designers.

I totally agree. I learned more from my time on jobsites and from the carpenters than I ever did in school.

[fyfas]

Your comments about salespeople and commissions in general are correct. From what I know of kitchen appliances in these price ranges,however, I was told the commision structure was so close as to be not relevant. Here in New Mexico, both retailers had their people on salary only (does not mean they are not pressured with quotas). That said, there were "promotions" floating around for, say, an additional 10 % off if one ordered all Sub-Zero/Wolf or Thermador (two that were available when I was shopping.

It was a salesman who cautioned me (and I had done extensive web-research and on-line/discussion group questioning) about Thermador's approach to achieving a "true simmer" and that the constant on-off/"clicking" drove many cooks crazy. And it was a salesman that showed me - even when I was skeptical - that the interior of Thermador's wall ovens was the largest (compared to similar cabinet cut-out size models). He took a large roasting pan and it would not go in a Viking sideways, only on a diagonal. Then he told me he "worried" about the long-term viability of the same Thermador's flip-over control panel and whether the plastic display would withstand the heat coming out from an opened oven door. Dacor's ovens seemed to be safest in that regard. All of that is to say that a good salesperson CAN be very helpful and most I talked to were very willing to invest a lot of time and answer the same questions over and over again.

As to the question regarding Amana making refrigerators/Maytag making dishwashers, I'll post back as I find out details; may take a day or two.

[fifi]

On kitchen design, I don't see how a designer can design a kitchen for you if they don't know how you cook. My house designer is wonderful but doesn't know beans about cooking. For that reason, I took the kitchen on myself. While watching every design show I could find, I actually kept a diary of how I used my kitchen in my house at the time. (An upscale tract built patio home with an ok kitchen.) I kept track of what I liked, what I didn't like, what I wanted to add. I did mental run throughs of day to day cooking (not much of that), recreational cooking with friends (my favorite thing to do), big family bashes, etc. I found some surprising things. I am short so I HATE upper cabinets. Out they went. I have windows instead. (More bay views. ) I don't like groveling on the floor to get things out of base cabinets... drawers. The island needs its own prep sink for cooking with friends. I use big pots so the clean-up sink had to be large. Walk in pantry, ABSOLUTELY. I could go on.

My point is... my style of cooking is not like anyone elses so how could a kitchen designer know what I want or how to prioritze where the money gets spent? But then... When I cook, I really cook so I know what is important to me. Those who don't cook are probably just as happy with a trophy kitchen.

Now all I have to do is get the damn thing built!

[Raynickben]

Good points fifi. One more thing since you haven't done the renovation yet: a hot water dispenser. I have one connected to the sink and it is FABULOUS! Anytime I need water for pasta, sauces, etc. I use that and voila'...instant hot water, boils in less than a minute.

[Blondie]

My point is... my style of cooking is not like anyone elses so how could a kitchen designer know what I want or how to prioritze where the money gets spent? But then... When I cook, I really cook so I know what is important to me. Those who don't cook are probably just as happy with a trophy kitchen.

A good designer will spend hours talking to you about how much you cook, what you cook, what other activities take place in the kitchen, what your preferences are. If the designer isn't asking these questions, they suck and should be fired.

[fifi]

Well put. The problem is, there aren't many of them out there.

My first question of a kitchen designer would be whether or not they cook!

[budrichard]

Raynickben, good point. We are currently in the midst of procuring a Franke 'Little Butler' that provides both filtered cold and hot water. -Dick

[fyfas]

For Alex who asked and anyone else interested in cross-ownership of brands of appliances...

First off I mistated it when I said KitchenAid was owned by Maytag; they are owned by Whirlpool. Whirlpool also owns a brand I've not heard of before, Roper. Roper is the maker of many Sears appliances sold as Kenmore. Amana, too, is part of Whirlpoool.

Maycor is the parent of Maytag. Maytag makes appliances as MagicChef, Admiral, Jenn-Air, Crosley and, on the high-end, Dynasty.

Elsewhere in this thread someone states that if one has a unit with the freezer on the bottom, that unit was made by Amana. While Amana was first to do this and makes many of that configuration, they are no longer the only maker; Sub-Zero makes everything that they sell themselves.

Which brings up another point... for the most part, the highest end appliances - Viking, Dacor, Thermador, Wolf, Garland, SubZero - are made by the selling company. Wolf and SubZero are now one company, a merger.

Appologies for it taking so long to get this additional information.

Edited October 9, 2003 by fyfas (log)