Improving my cooking skills (2003)

[SethG]

I don't have Julia/Jacques, but my copy of Making of a Cook just arrived.

[hjshorter]

Hmm. There goes that idea.

Dave, I don't have the Bittman/Vongerichten book. Worth getting?

[SethG]

Heather, I wasn't trying to dissuade the group from using Julia/Jacques. I could go and get it; it sounds worthwhile.

I did make that chicken thing (#144) last night, and it has led me to some thoughts about Pepin's book, if you guys want a report.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, I don't have the Bittman/Vongerichten book.  Worth getting?

Well, I don't have it either, though I intend to get it. Someone on eGullet recommeneded it highly. It seemed to me that it might suit one aspect of our "club" (for lack of a better word), in that it layers (again, for lack of a better word) techniques: you make the basic version of a dish, then create successively more elaborate versions of it. The downside would be, to go through all the versions of one dish would take five lessons. Just in typing this out, I'm inclined to go back to J&J.

I did make that chicken thing (#144) last night, and it has led me to some thoughts about Pepin's book, if you guys want a report.

Absolutely.

[MatthewB]

If we're looking for "versioning," Think Like a Chef comes to mind.

(I have the Bittman/Vongerichten book. It *is* very good.)

[hjshorter]

We have Think Like A Chef, but to be honest, I don't care for it.

Seth, please report.

[edemuth]

I just saw this thread... what a cool idea! May I join this merry band, please?

If J&J is the definite text, I will purchase tout suite.

[edemuth]

double post

Edited October 18, 2003 by edemuth (log)

[SethG]

I think I speak for the whole band when I say that you are most welcome to join. Especially if you have a PA and your dad will let us practice in your garage!

My report:

The recipe I made involved stuffing a chicken under the skin with sauteed mushrooms, garlic and parsley, then roasting the bird, then making a tomato/olive/garlic/herb sauce with the pan drippings. I was able to make some judgments along the way.

1. So far as technique is concerned, I found Jacques' instructions to be pretty clear, but his choices of what to illustrate were sometimes a little curious. The actual stuffing of the chicken is pretty simple, yet Jacques devotes most of the instruction to this step. On the other hand, he tells you to remove the wishbone, but gives you no instruction whatsoever in how to do so. I've roasted a chicken probably once every two weeks for the last two years, and I can carve up a chicken or cut it into serving pieces in seconds, but I've never removed just the wishbone from an uncooked chicken through the neck before, and how to do it did not seem obvious to me. In addition, although I found his trussing instructions (without a needle) to be very helpful and clear in general, I couldn't for the life of me understand what he was telling me to do in step 6, right before the knot is tied. And the illustration was of no help.

More importantly, I wished Jacques would tell me why a little more often. Why, for example, should the wishbone be removed? I've never removed it before when I've roasted a chicken, and everything always comes out fine. If you carve into serving pieces, you cut through it, but so what? Last night, I didn't remove it, and I don't think it harmed the dish. Jacques also says it's important to push the breast up when trussing the chicken, but why? Might this not lead to faster cooking of the breast, which I don't think you want? I'd like to know what he's thinking.

So in sum, I guess as far as the technique goes, I worry that the book will give me certain skills, but that I'd become a better cook if I better understood the reasons underlying those skills. After working with Jacques last night, the virtues of a book like Cookwise became more apparent to me. (I actually just bought that too, but I've yet to make anything from it.)

2. Cuisine. Jacques' book is not supposed to be about cuisine. So it may be unfair to expect to learn anything about it. But I gotta say I was rather frustrated by the purely technical aspect of the book. I'm not generally a fan of chicken roasted the French way. I've always felt that all the trussing, turning and basting are unneccessary, and that the use of butter to moisten the bird adds so much fat when a couple of lemons in the cavity could do the same job. But Jacques' recipe, it turned out, was not as time-consuming as I thought it would be, and it was delicious. He limits the basting to a couple times right at the end, and the stuffing only takes a few minutes to prepare. And the tomato/olive/garlic/herb sauce at the end also took only a few minutes, and it tasted great. So I had a much more sophisticated dish than my usual roast chicken, and it actually took only marginally more effort. This was a good lesson.

But what is this dish? Its use of garlic, tomato, and olives identifies it as a Provence-inspired creation, I guess. But it isn't the usual Provencal chicken, which is stewed in a pot and uses olive oil instead of butter, right? I think it might be an improvement on the Provencal classic, really, because the roasted chicken is tastier to my mind than stewed chicken, which can turn out rubbery if you're not careful. But does this dish have a history, or a name? I'd like to know, and I'll never find out from Jacques.

So that's the report. It was successful, and a very tasty dish I will make again. But not without some frustrations.

[hjshorter]

Seth, many of the issues you had with CT were things I was imagining.

OK, shall we go with Cookwise instead? Shirley is cool and she definitely gives you the "why" of everything. J&J Cooking At Home would be my first choice, then Cookwise.

And Erin, we'd be honored.

[marie-louise]

On the other hand, he tells you to remove the wishbone, but gives you no instruction whatsoever in how to do so.  I've roasted a chicken probably once every two weeks for the last two years, and I can carve up a chicken or cut it into serving pieces in seconds, but I've never removed just the wishbone from an uncooked chicken through the neck before, and how to do it did not seem obvious to me. 

I looked this step up in J & J: Cooking at Home. Not only is there a nice color picture along with some detailed text, they explain why you do it (to make it easier to carve.) I'm a big fan of this book, although I haven't picked it up in a while. Just a caution about Cookwise-while her science makes a lot of sense, I don't care much for her recipes. If you want a book that has both great scientific explanations and great recipes, Kamman's New Making of a Cook would be my recommendation. J & J: Cooking at Home is more practiical, less cerebral.

PS My life is a little too crazy right now to join in consistently (I've yet to work my way through the eGCI, either) but I think the idea of virtually cooking together is terrific. I'd like to join in now and again, if that's okay?

[Dave the Cook]

Great review, Seth. Your experience encapsulates both the strength and weakness of CT.

I also agree with marie-louise that Cookwise does not have such great recipes. What is there does a good job of illustrating the principle(s) at hand, but Corriher's imagination as a cook seems rather limited.

Why can't we use J&J as our reference for recipes, and use whatever technique is offered there. But before preceeding with any specific dish, we can consult reference tomes like Cookwise, How to Read a French Fry, I'm Just Here for the Food, whatever McGee might have to offer, or anything else for that matter, including our own experiences. We might find that there is more than one way to approach a specific issue. In those cases, some of us can try one way, some another, then we can report and dissect.

This also means that the only book anyone has to have is J&J. If other texts are relevant, whoever already owns them can research and report.

[SethG]

If you want a book that has both great scientific explanations and great recipes, Kamman's New Making of a Cook would be my recommendation. J & J: Cooking at Home is more practiical, less cerebral.

marie-louise, I think it goes without saying that you are welcome to join in whenever you can. That goes for any other eGulleteers out there, too. Unless MatthewB disagrees, since this is his thread after all.

I'm interested to see another vote for Making of a Cook. I'm going to look through it a bit today for the first time. It looks enormous, comprehensive, thorough. But if more of y'all want to do Jules et Jim, I mean Jacques et Julia, I'm down with it.

Edited to add:

And maybe we should hold off on selecting a book until MatthewB has recovered from the Heartland gathering!

Edited October 19, 2003 by SethG (log)

[Mottmott]

I'm just going to lurk until my life settles down, so my $.02 is gratuitous. But I'll throw it into the pot anyhow.

Why not chose a project, say, roasting chicken, or whatever, then some people can use Making of a Cook while others use J&J, or CT (for example) and compare your results and compare the differences in the usefulness of presentation well as the final product itself. After that, there may be more consensus on which of these books to use as a group or perhaps you may decide that the process is enriched by combining these sources.

Whenever I take on a new complex dish or technique, I keep Pepin, Kamman, Peterson, and Corriher on call. I'm an equal opportunity employer.

[hjshorter]

I also agree with marie-louise that Cookwise does not have such great recipes. What is there does a good job of illustrating the principle(s) at hand, but Corriher's imagination as a cook seems rather limited.

That's good to know. I haven't made any recipes from Cookwise, only read it for reference.

[MatthewB]

marie-louise, I think it goes without saying that you are welcome to join in whenever you can.  That goes for any other eGulleteers out there, too.  Unless MatthewB disagrees . . .

No disagreement here.

And maybe we should hold off on selecting a book until MatthewB has recovered from the Heartland gathering!

The best aspect of this recovery is a fridge full of wonderful wonderful food. Alas, I need to go mop. I'll note more about our cooking project tomorrow or Tuesday!

[edemuth]

Seth, thanks for the wonderful review. I often wonder about the "whys" myself!

I agree with Dave and marie-louise about Cookwise: excellent reference, but I look elsewhere for recipes and inspiration.

Why not chose a project, say, roasting chicken, or whatever, then some people can use Making of a Cook while others use J&J, or CT (for example) and compare your results and compare the differences in the usefulness of presentation well as the final product itself. After that, there may be more consensus on which of these books to use as a group or perhaps you may decide that the process is enriched by combining these sources.

Great idea, Mottmott! What does everyone else think?

FWIW, I will peruse J & J and Making of a Cook at lunch and report back on my impressions.

[MatthewB]

I picked up J & J today.

I also picked up the new edition of Pellaprat's The Great Book of French Cuisine (with introduction & revisions by Jeremiah Tower).

Wanna cook through TGBoFC?

[SethG]

I saw that Tower book at Borders today, but resisted pulling it off the shelf. If I buy any more cookbooks my wife may commit me. (Not that my cookbook collection rivals any of yours, I'm sure. It's just that I bought four or five within the last couple weeks.)

So I ordered Jules et Jim from Amazon today, and I'll try to hide the box when it arrives. I would've bought that at Borders, but they were asking list price and I knew I could get it online for half that. KatieLoeb says my cheapness is the secret of my success with the ladies; I can't risk losing the mojo over one lousy book!

So if we begin to work through Jules et Jim, I may not be able to join you for a week or two. By which time I'll have a new infant in the house (God willing), but I'll still have to cook, right?

[marie-louise]

FYI, here's the list of the episodes that were on the J&J TV series- for those of you who don't own it, this gives you an idea of what's in the book. Cookbook trivia: unlike most cookbooks that accompany a cooking show, this one was written AFTER the tapings, not before. Looks like there's a reasonably-priced DVD for sale through Amazon as well. I took another look through this cookbook this weekend-it is a real gem.

[MatthewB]

Dirty little secret:

I'm a virgin at cutting up raw whole poultry.

There. I said it.

And I want to learn new techinques.

So . . .

How about "Jacques's Turkey Galantine" (pp. 290-95) or "Jacques's Sauteed Chicken 'Maison'" (pp. 274-75) in J & J?

[hjshorter]

One vote for the chicken. Tomorrow night?

Let's do the galantine closer to the holidays, so that I have 12-15 people around to eat it.

[MatthewB]

One vote for the chicken.  Tomorrow night?

Let's do the galantine closer to the holidays, so that I have 12-15 people around to eat it. 

Okie doke.

But might we do the chicken this weekend?

I'm heading back to the city & I've hell to pay for taking a week off.

[hjshorter]

Okie doke.

But might we do the chicken this weekend?

I'm heading back to the city & I've hell to pay for taking a week off.

I bet.

Saturday then?

[MatthewB]

Okie doke.

But might we do the chicken this weekend?

I'm heading back to the city & I've hell to pay for taking a week off.

I bet.

Saturday then?

It's a plan.

Who else is in?