Q&A -- Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone

[Katherine]

I like seitan, I've made it myself many ways, yummy and economical. In teeny packets, preseasoned from your grocery processed food case, it's a ripoff.

Katherine, I am glad you mentioned seitan. Seitan is a wheat-gluten protein alternative, and it has a delightfully chewy texture...not spongy-ish like frozen or fried tofu. It's used at many Asian vegetarian restaurants as a meat substitute. I have very little experience working with it, which is mostly why I didn't cover it in my lesson. What do you like to do with it? And what's your technique for making it?

My experience with seitan is entirely through experimentation, and I've never had it in a restaurant (we don't get authentic Chinese food around here). I wouldn't dream of spending $4 on a little packet of pre-seasoned seitan that will serve two if they're not hungry, when gluten flour is going for $1.95 a pound in the natural foods store.

Although she was never a vegan, my daughter used to belong to Food not Bombs, a group that would distribute vegan food in a city square on Sunday afternoons. We spent most Sunday mornings cooking exotic stuff to wow'em. As teenaged vegans who lived mostly on kale and oats, they were easily impressed.

I've always made seitan from gluten flour. I mix it up with water (and salt) in the Kitchenaid. You can cut it into bite-sized pieces and stew them in a savory broth, poach it whole, and then cut it, or deep fry pieces until puffy, then freshen and cook in a sauce.

I've made it in Chinese or Italian sauteed eggplant; green or red chili; kung pao seitan; cutlets wrapped around a tofu filling that resembles ricotta cheese, baked with a red sauce; stewed with mushrooms in soy sauce and sesame oil.

Our all-time favorite was the time I colored half of it with cocoa, paprika, and beet juice. I made it up with enough liquid so it was shapeable, and made two layers and sandwiched them together so they were striped like pork belly. Then I steamed it until it held its shape, and stewed it in a broth that contained (among other things) sugar, vinegar, spices, and mesquite flavored oil. Mmmm, fakin'! It tasted waaay too much like pork.

I know vegans who don't eat seitan either because it too closely resembles meat, or because it's "too processed". Each to his own.

[CityCook]

I think that once, in a restaurant on Sunset Blvd., I had little shreds of delightfully chewey seitan (I still don't know what the shreds were but reading these posts makes me think seitan is the prime suspect) in a rich brown sauce. I mean, the sauce was one of those sauces that wipes all thought from your head and then makes you think that you could spend a perfectly content week in a solitary confinement cell with nothing but a mouthful of this sauce. What I'm getting at is that I think the sauce must have been made with veal stock. Seitan and veal-based sauce.

[Wren]

I hate the term Pesco-Vegetarian.  I know it is widely used and unfortunately it leads people to believe vegetarianism includes the eating of fish.

Hi Wren, thanks for your comments and welcome to eGullet.

I used to agree with you about terminology. I felt that people who ate fish were eating animal flesh and shouldn't use the "vegetarian" term. I felt that it simply confused everybody else as to what consisted of a vegetarian. But now I see the utility of the term pesco-vegetarian. It's simpler than saying "I don't eat meat or fowl, but I do eat fish, dairy and egg foods." My partner is a pesco-vegetarian, and he sometimes uses the word "vegetarian" without the prefix to describe himself. It makes sense when so many fish preparations in restaurants use bacon, proscuitto, chicken stock and other meat or fowl foods. At least this way he won't be served those other foods, and he has no problem with eating vegetarian without fish if it simplifies things.

Besides, I'm a big believer in letting people label themselves. It doesn't really hurt anything, and if you go about questioning peoples' labels it's a slippery slope leading to all sorts of hairy issues. See my above examples of vegetarians who eat fish sauce, gelatin, etc. Does anybody really want to have their every motive questioned? I accept peoples' food labels at face value, and generally only question them in the context of figuring out what I can cook for them. It's the only safe bet.

Labels do not define us but they do give the world a glimpse into how we view ourselves. The utility of terming oneself a Pesco-Vegetarian or even just a Vegetarian while still eating fish may be obvious but simpler isn’t always better and in this case it is not. What it does do is lead to confusion and the bastardization of the word Vegetarian. Your partner is of course entitled to call himself a Pesco-Vegetarian or even a Vegetarian but the fact is he is neither. Questioning people’s labels is a beautiful thing, even when it gets ugly because in the process of questioning we are defining our “labels” and in that process sometimes with an open mind we see that we have mislabeled ourselves.

And regarding your question: Does anybody really want to have their every motive questioned? Obviously the answer is no. But your every motive isn’t being questioned.

Knowingly misusing the term Vegetarian is a disservice to those who prescribe to that lifestyle.

[Malawry]

My experience with seitan is entirely through experimentation, and I've never had it in a restaurant (we don't get authentic Chinese food around here). ...

Our all-time favorite was the time I colored half of it with cocoa, paprika, and beet juice. I made it up with enough liquid so it was shapeable, and made two layers and sandwiched them together so they were striped like pork belly. Then I steamed it until it held its shape, and stewed it in a broth that contained (among other things) sugar, vinegar, spices, and mesquite flavored oil. Mmmm, fakin'! It tasted waaay too much like pork.

Next time you visit a big city, ask if there are any vegetarian Chinese restaurants around. DC has a few, as does NYC. What those guys do with seitan will blow your mind.

Thought your fakin' pork sounds pretty mind-blowing too! Wow. How long did it take you to make that?

[Malawry]

Questioning people’s labels is a beautiful thing, even when it gets ugly   because in the process of questioning we are defining our “labels” and in that process sometimes with an open mind we see that we have mislabeled ourselves.

A fair perspective, although it's one I disagree with.

With that, let's leave the subject of labeling and the politics therein behind. After all, this is a discussion about cooking vegetarian food. While vegetarianism is an inherently political choice for many, it's ultimately all about the food no matter whether or not you eliminate animal products from your diet.

[Wren]

With that, let's leave the subject of labeling and the politics therein behind. After all, this is a discussion about cooking vegetarian food. While vegetarianism is an inherently political choice for many, it's ultimately all about the food no matter whether or not you eliminate animal products from your diet.

Yes, this is a discussion about vegetarian food and that includes the question of what IS vegetarian food. But agreed the topic of what is a Vegetarian has gotten old. Let us move on! And thank you for your thoughtful answers.

[Katherine]

Next time you visit a big city, ask if there are any vegetarian Chinese restaurants around. DC has a few, as does NYC. What those guys do with seitan will blow your mind.

Thought your fakin' pork sounds pretty mind-blowing too! Wow. How long did it take you to make that?

I don't get out of state much, on my budget, but last time I was at the 88 in Boston I saw vegetarian "intestines"...

I'm thinking now that for the fakin' I made 2 layers separately, which probably took about 15 minutes each, so maybe 45 minutes of work, max. Plus cooking time.

I could probably put together a unit, but I don't have recipes, so the need to develop them would prevent me from giving you a time frame.

[zilla369]

Great job, Malawry. I don't actually have a question, i just wanted to say thanks!

[moreace01]

Just wondering - has anyone tried Quorn? I guess its a mycoprotein (sp?) - some sort of fungus. Apparently pretty popular in Europe and has only been available in the U.S. since last year. Wondering how that compares to tofu, tempeh, etc.

[Malawry]

I tried it once. It was pretty good. We bought the chicken-like nuggets (which are not breaded) and tossed them into an Indian-style curry for dinner one night. They really did taste chickeny (and this was after I started eating chicken again). I haven't bought them since though; they're expensive.

Tofu and tempeh are totally different in texture and flavor from this stuff. Seitan probably comes the closest.

Do a quick search and you will find a couple of discussion threads on Quorn here on eGullet.

[maryolive]

Malawry,

Thank you for a very well-presented lesson...I enjoyed it very much!

I, too, am a former vegetarian, and thought it might be valuable to point out that if any omnivorous readers find themselves cooking for a vegetarian, they should try to use separate utensils and/or cooking surfaces for these guests. My sister is a vegetarian, and at family gatherings, I might make two batches of a marinade -- one batch for the fish/meat/whatever, and another for some tofu. The fish/meat/whatever goes on one section of the grill, the tofu on the other, and never the twain shall meet -- we even use separate spatulas or tongs to flip each item. I think most vegetarians who eat that way due to a belief system will agree with this...I remember that one of the big problems many vegetarians/vegans had with the BK veggie burger a while back was that the thing was cooked on the same grill and flipped with the same spatula used for all the other stuff; by the time you got your veggie burger, it was covered in...well, cow!

Thanks again for the lesson...I'm looking forward to trying some of the recipes (they really look gorgeous!)

mary

Edited August 21, 2003 by maryolive (log)

[Malawry]

Maryolive, welcome to eGullet and thanks for your post.

Keeping things separated is indeed important, especially if you are going to cook for a vegetarian more than once. At my house, we have a little portable gas grill that is known in our circle as the "veggie grill." We never grill meat or fowl on it, and it's small enough that we can take it to any cookout. Friends who don't eat meat know they can have a "clean" surface for grilling their goodies, and this little guy is often borrowed by other friends when camping or hosting their own cookouts.

My home pots, pans, cutting boards and so on are all vegetarian-plus-fish, no meat or fowl goes on them. I scrub everything down if we have our vegan friends over.

Not all people expect this level of separation. I didn't, especially in the later years when I was a vegetarian. It goes back to the question of "where do you draw the line?" Still, cleaning your surfaces and using separate utensils is probably the right thing to do when cooking for a vegetarian.

[Rachel Perlow]

Vegans may also refuse to consume dates (which are fertilized by a certain type of wasp) ... and other foods that appear to be animal-free.

I'd like some more information about this. Aren't most fruits developed & vegetables propagated by various insects? Do the wasps get stuck inside the date (or leave something inside) that makes eating them a risk of eating an animal?

~~~

I see textured vegetable protein in the bulk bins. Do you know what that stuff is and what it is used for?

TVP is a soy food, basically little granules of chewy soy protein. I've found little use for it, although some people like to add it to stews and to vegetarian chili. I've barely worked with it myself but I believe you prepare it by soaking it to reconstitute and then adding it to a dish for brief cooking before serving. When you reconstitute it you may wish to use a flavored liquid like vegetable stock, or maybe coconut milk or something depending on what you're adding it to.

I've used TVP as an extender for meatloaf, ironically. I don't bother soaking it, just mix it into the meat with the other ingredients instead of a bread or bread crumbs. It never seemed to get chewy to me if it were soaked first, so it didn't work as a meat substitute, like you couldn't make patties of it. But as a way to cut down on the fat of some ground meat dishes while reducing the carbs, it works very well.

~~~

I know that silken tofu is very wet and soft, and is easily pureed for use in sauces or smoothies. Silken tofu is available in firm or soft versions, and the firm freezes pretty well. Chinese-style tofus tend to be coarser in texture, and they have a better texture (if you like chewy tofu, which I do) both before and after freezing.

There is also firm PRESSED tofu, which has more the consistency of a meat product like chicken breast. It comes in blocks, and is usually cut up into julienne strips and stir fried with veggies and meat. Very frequently used in a lot of chinese and thai dishes.

I don't think you can buy pressed tofu, or at least not big commercial versions. Perhaps some Asian groceries have homemade pressed tofu.

In any case, I've found that it is important to NOT get silken tofu (even firm silken) if you are planning on pressing it. No matter how much water I press out, silken tofu always seems to dissolve or crumble. That's why I bolded Malawry's quote, above.

~~~

I tried it (Quorn) once. It was pretty good. We bought the chicken-like nuggets (which are not breaded) and tossed them into an Indian-style curry for dinner one night. They really did taste chickeny (and this was after I started eating chicken again). I haven't bought them since though; they're expensive.

This reminded me of the time we were gifted a chunk of foraged chicken mushroom. It was this "huge hunk 'O wild mushroom" that an eGullet member divvied up at the first NY Potluck dinner (see picture on page 2 of the linked thread). I know a lot of things "taste like chicken" but this really really tasted like chicken. It was great sauteed and mixed with pasta.

~~~

Thanks for the terrific class, Rochelle. I wanted to contribute a great recipe for Bean Pebbled Paella I found on Arthur Schwartz's Food Maven website. I especially thought you would like it because it sounds like you always have a variety of cooked beans in your freezer and this is an excellent way to use an assortment of them. It sounds delicious, although I'm sure leaving out the ham will cause the flavor to suffer. Any suggestions for a substitution?

[Wren]

I know that silken tofu is very wet and soft, and is easily pureed for use in sauces or smoothies. Silken tofu is available in firm or soft versions, and the firm freezes pretty well. Chinese-style tofus tend to be coarser in texture, and they have a better texture (if you like chewy tofu, which I do) both before and after freezing.

There is also firm PRESSED tofu, which has more the consistency of a meat product like chicken breast. It comes in blocks, and is usually cut up into julienne strips and stir fried with veggies and meat. Very frequently used in a lot of chinese and thai dishes.

I don't think you can buy pressed tofu, or at least not big commercial versions. Perhaps some Asian groceries have homemade pressed tofu.

Here in LA, Trader Joe's carries what they call "Organic Baked Tofu" in two flavors, Thai and teriyaki in the prepared foods section (not where the regular tubs of tofu are usually kept), it's actually pressed tofu and delicious, not to be confused with the unflavored "Organic Baked Tofu" which I have yet to try and looks to be wetter. The tofu is identical in texture and appearance to the pressed tofu at Chinese restaurants. The flavoring is very mild.

[Malawry]

Rachel, as you may have guessed, you have caught an error. It is not dates that are fertilized by wasps, it's figs. Check this site for more information. Specifically,

A male emerges from the pistil and promptly impregnates a female, while she is still in her pistil. Soon after the wingless male dies; most male carcasses remain in the syconium. Meanwhile, the winged, gravid females emerge and leave the fig through the ostiole. Eventually a female flies to a new, young, flowering caprifig of the spring crop (profichi crop) and enters through the ostiole. The female oviposits eggs in some of the pistils, one per ovary, and then carries pollen to the other pistils for seed set. This enables the fruit to mature, and her young therefore to receive nourishment. The female dies within the developing fruit.

Also, in your recipe, if you have the ability to smoke foods I think pre-frozen smoked tofu might make a nice substitute for the meat in that paella recipe. You can buy smoked tofu at natural foods markets.

[Rachel Perlow]

I thought about it some more, and feel that if you are using good Spanish smoked paprika, the ham hardly needs to be there at all. Let it be all about the various colors and textures of the beans and rice.

[Jinmyo]

I know that silken tofu is very wet and soft, and is easily pureed for use in sauces or smoothies. Silken tofu is available in firm or soft versions, and the firm freezes pretty well. Chinese-style tofus tend to be coarser in texture, and they have a better texture (if you like chewy tofu, which I do) both before and after freezing.

There is also firm PRESSED tofu, which has more the consistency of a meat product like chicken breast.

Actually, skinless boneless chicken breasts are pressed cotton tofu. Shaped, given a dye, injected with chicken slime and Knorr's chicken powder.

[bloviatrix]

Malawry, just had a chance to read your piece and found it very interesting.

I would like to point out that lacto-vegetarians who have issues with cheese because of the animal rennet should look to kosher cheeses as an option -- they do not contain animal rennet.

Edited August 25, 2003 by bloviatrix (log)

[Malawry]

Great point, and one I forgot when working on my presentation. Thank you!

[Rachel Perlow]

I asked Arthur Schwartz (WOR radio, "Food Talk with Arthur Schwartz") regarding salt in bean cooking water. His response: "I do not wait to salt beans anymore. I put the salt in from the beginning, and I haven't noticed the beans toughening, the skins toughening, the beans splitting, none of the many things that they say will happen."

[Malawry]

I haven't done a scientific test on this one. Mark Bittman says the same thing as Arthur Schwartz does. I cook them without salt because I know from experience that a. I definitely know that it won't hurt the texture and b. I'm able to properly season beans after they are cooked. But you should try it yourself, make your own decision.