finding fish

[JFLinLA]

Here's the link to the LA Times Digest with a summary and a link to the article.

[Fat Guy]

Too bad Russ wrote the article before I had a chance to tell him about one of the best seafood markets in LA: Costco.

Seriously, though, how do the fish markets in LA stack up against the large chain stores that do a lot of fish business and may even source their own stuff through exclusive relationships: Costco, Whole Foods, etc.?

[elmo]

I have seen the seafood at Costco (and smelled it from some distance away). I wouldnt buy my seafood there...

[Fat Guy]

If you have a look at any of several Costco threads on eGullet (e.g., http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=26817 ) you'll find quite a few knowledgeable people throwing a lot of support towards Costco's fish offerings. They have high turnover, which is an essential part of what makes a good fish market, and they do tremendous volume.

[sammy]

Costco may have high turnover but I don't understand how you could consider highly fish that has been pre-cut, put on a piece of styrofoam, wrapped in plastic and put in a refrigerated case waiting for the customer.

I was in a Costco a few weeks ago and looked at the farmed salmon. It was Saturday, August 10 and the package had a "sell by date" of August 14. I personally think that is unacceptable for fresh fish.

Edited September 4, 2003 by sammy (log)

[tanabutler]

I think it matters where you are in the country. Here on California's elbow (the central coast, the Monterey Bay), fresh fish is abundant. We're having a glut of tuna, for example—a record year.

It's probably different elsewhere, especially if you are landlocked. But here, the fish has that glistening, live look Russ mentioned in his article. I don't buy dull-looking fish. Costco's pretty good here. Your mileage may vary.

[elmo]

The thread you linked me to had one person who happened to like the salmon filets and one person who likes the scallops.

[sammy]

At the Costco in Norwalk, they have a particularly poor variety of fish as well. Why not support your local fish store to ensure the availability of a wider variety of fish and shellfish?

[Fat Guy]

"Poor variety" as in limited selection or poor fish? Costco definitely has limited selection, but it's well chosen and aggressively priced.

[Fat Guy]

Costco may have high turnover but I don't understand how you could consider highly fish that has been pre-cut, put on a piece of styrofoam, wrapped in plastic and put in a refrigerated case waiting for the customer.

That's how fish is sold in some of the best Japanese markets.

[sammy]

And do the best Japanese markets let the fish sit there for 4 days if unsold?

[Fat Guy]

Further to that post, Russ Parsons says of the Japanese fish markets in LA: "Almost everything will be of the highest quality and the fish tends to be wrapped in plastic on trays . . ."

[sammy]

"Poor variety" as in limited selection or poor fish? Costco definitely has limited selection, but it's well chosen and aggressively priced.

Limited selection. I can't vouch for the quality one way or another.

[Fat Guy]

And do the best Japanese markets let the fish sit there for 4 days if unsold?

There's a difference between a sell-by date and how long something sits on the shelf until sold. But the reality is that most fish sold retail is older than people think -- many days older, even at good fish markets.

[sammy]

I've always heard from the chefs considered to be the best with fish including Moonen, Ripert and Brown, that fish is best to buy whole as you can see the eyes and gills. Of course with larger fish it is not possible so it should at least be cut fresh as the fish should stay fresher on ice than if were pre-cut and put in plastic.

Are we saying that that advice should be forsaken for a few dollars per lb?

Edited September 4, 2003 by sammy (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'd never ignore Moonen, Ripert, or Brown, though I doubt they do much shopping at retail fish markets. But the thing is, above all else, I think we should trust our tastebuds. I'm a big believer in substance over form. If the fish in the shrink wrap tastes good, that's all I care about.

[russ parsons]

well, it's nice to know the article stirred up some conversation. a couple of points:

I didn't include costco because their selection was so limited and because i didn't think their price break was enough to warrant it ... but then again, i need to point out that i was selecting (or trying to) the best places in southern california ... a market of more than 8 million people.

prices were lower and the selection was better at 99 ranch. also, much more whole fish.

on the question of whole vs. cut: i think whole fish is always preferable, though it is very hard to find in southern california. some places are better than others (see 99 ranch above), but still there were far more fillets than whole fish. that said, fillets aren't bad at all. i really think teh main advantage to whole fish is that it's easier to judge freshness (the parts that spoil fastest--gills, eyes--are cut away from fillets). but the idea of someone buying a whole salmon so they get the absolute best 2 6-ounce fillets for dinner strikes me as impractical. and i don't know of many markets that will break down a new whole salmon at your request.

it also should be pointed out that freshness with fish is a bit of a paradox. of course, fish should be fresh, within a couple of days of being caught, but for the best quality, you want it to be at least a day old (depending on the fish), so it has passed through rigor mortis. until then, the flesh is cottony and the flavor isn't as developed (same as aged beef, except that fish ages so much faster). the other alternative is to use very gentle cooking methods, which diminish the difference. you'll notice that the chinese who make such a fetish of the live fish tanks, usually serve that fish steamed.

it is definitely true that the japanese markets serve fish on styrofoam, wrapped in plastic. and it is also true that the japanese markets (at least in southern california) tend to have by far the highest uniform standards for quality. packaging is not an indicator.

[arkestra]

And, if 'm not mistaken, the Japanese markets also include the date the fish was packaged, not just the "sell by" date.

[Fat Guy]

I think it was a good article Russ, exactly because it's useful (I am assuming) to people in the local market yet interesting to people who are never going to shop for fish in LA. I wish I could see the physical layout of the paper -- I get the feeling I'm missing the impact of the package by viewing it online.

In terms of the age of fish, the guys I've spoken to at the Fulton Fish Market -- and I'm talking about the ones like Eric Tevrow who supply the top restaurants, as opposed to the mega-wholesalers who mostly traffic in frozen crap -- tell me that at a *good* fish store most of the fish is going to be 4-5 days out of the water. There's a lot of telling people what they want to hear about fish, "Oh, yeah, the boat just came in this morning," but there's very little fish being sold retail that comes off the dayboats. Most of it is going through multiple stages of transfer and distribution, and that's not even counting the time on the boat or the time in the retail store. And ultimately I see nothing wrong with that time frame if the fish is handled properly, and if you look at what they do not what they say I think it's clear that most professional chefs feel the same. I got a whole Chatham cod a couple of years back through a Fulton Market connection and I assume when I got it it was less than a day old -- it was from a day boat that had allegedly (and I believe it in this instance, because the packaging was so thoroughly detailed about this) come in the day before. I got it early in the morning. I had to prepare a dinner not that night but the following night, for a charity group. But there was going to be about 10 pounds of leftover fish anyway (it was like a 30+ pound cod). So, timeline-wise, fish caught on day 1, collected and butchered on day 2, served on day 3 to big donors, then served on day 4 to me at home, and then, well, there was a lot of it. I ate cod on day 5. I ate cod on day 6. Every day, I took it out of the fridge and smelled it and it smelled fine, so I ate more of it. And every day I said, "Damn, this cod is good." Finally, on day 7, even though there was nothing actually wrong with it, the taste started to deteriorate. And that's when I realized, "Hey this fish tastes like the fish from the fancy fish market on Lexington Avenue!" Day 8, it started to smell just a little fishy so I ditched it. But I bet plenty of restaurants would have served it -- I'm sure that, cooked, it would have passed muster.

[JFLinLA]

I think it was a good article Russ, exactly because it's useful (I am assuming) to people in the local market yet interesting to people who are never going to shop for fish in LA. I wish I could see the physical layout of the paper -- I get the feeling I'm missing the impact of the package by viewing it online.

Steve:

Once you get onto the Food page online, click on the Food PDF button on the left of the screen. You won't get the newsprint on your hands but it will give you a sense of how the thing looks.

[Fat Guy]

That is an AWESOME feature.

[hollywood]

That is an AWESOME feature.

That is hot. How long have I been missing this?

[russ parsons]

don't fret, gentle reader, but that was an original feature when we went to the web in, oh, 1995. actually, i can't even remember the date. i haven't visited the site in a while (i've seen enough of the food section by wednesday morning), but we used to have a link featuring yours truly giving a 360-degree tour of the new test kitchen. my guess is that's no longer timely and so probably isn't on there. we did get some things right.

[Fat Guy]

Please refer to me as Rough Reader.

[hollywood]

Please refer to me as Rough Reader.

Either that or Little Beaver.