Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop Cookware

[slkinsey]

Interesting. Whether a piece of heavy copper loses a lot of heat when, for exmple, introduced to a large piece of meat depends on a lot of variables: how hot was the pan preheated, how high is the flame, how powerful is the stove, what kinds of heat source are you using, how large is the piece of meat, is the pan being taken off the heat and put into the oven, and if so how soon, etc.

There is little doubt that cast iron or stainless with a thick aluminum disk bottom is the better choice for certain food items and for certain cooking tasks. However, I usually find that I wish cast iron cookware was substantially heavier than it is. There is often only a marginal difference in the heat capacity of similar sized heavy copper and cast iron pieces, and most cast iron pieces are not thick enough to avoid significant hotspot problems.

That said, I'll usually reach for some of my old cast iron if I'm going to be searing a steak or a pork chop and finishing it in the oven. I don't often use cast iron for something like a spatchcocked chicken I'm starting skin side-down on the stove and finishing in the oven, but that is simply a shape issue: I don't find the cast iron skillet shape to be very good for this task and prefer a frypan shape. If they made large extra-heavy cast iron pans with low sloping sides I'd use them.

I'm curious. . . what kinds of things do you do where you feel that copper loses heat for you?

[cake]

I don't own the seven inch Falk curved sauteuse evasée, but I do own the regular straight sided sauteuse evasée in the 1 quart size.  It is not particularly "tippy."

Thanks, this is good to know.

Aside from price considerations, since I am already planning to buy a saucier in the 11", do you think that it would make more sense to get the smaller one in the fait tout/straight sided configuration instead of curved? I know--you wanna know what I am going to use it for--well--sauces in small quantities (for one or two people), as well as more pedestrian uses where a saucier is overkill...

[MobyP]

As with you, I noticed I could keep a higher heat for searing steaks or chickens etc. When making jus, and have a pan full of scraps to brown, the copper will lose heat and so become 'sticky' much faster than the old cast iron. I also have some s/s pieces from an Italian range of pans - the company is calle Pentole - that I've only ever seen in the UK. I believe they have a copper core. Regardless, the (even) heat they maintain is unbelievable, certainly higher than the mauviel. Not what I was expecting.

[slkinsey]

Aside from price considerations, since I am already planning to buy a saucier in the 11", do you think that it would make more sense to get the smaller one in the fait tout/straight sided configuration instead of curved? I know--you wanna know what I am going to use it for--well--sauces in small quantities (for one or two people), as well as more pedestrian uses where a saucier is overkill.

Either/or, really. A lot of people like the curved sides for sauce making. I have a small regular sauteuse evasee and medium curved sauteuse evasee. I like them about equally.

As with you, I noticed I could keep a higher heat for searing steaks or chickens etc. When making jus, and have a pan full of scraps to brown, the copper will lose heat and so become 'sticky' much faster than the old cast iron. I also have some s/s pieces from an Italian range of pans - the company is calle Pentole - that I've only ever seen in the UK. I believe they have a copper core. Regardless, the (even) heat they maintain is unbelievable, certainly higher than the mauviel. Not what I was expecting.

If the thermal mass is higher then, all other things being equal, it will hold temperature better. Of course, if the thermal mass is higher and the thermal conductivity is lower, it just magnifies the difference. FWIW, from what I have been able to glean, I suspect your ICM Cose Casa "Le Pentole" cookware is not copper core, but rather heavy stainless with a thick encapsulated aluminum base. One would expect better heat retention from such a design.

Personally, I prefer heavy stainless body with an extra-thick aluminum base for a saute pan. I think it balances the need for a high heat capacity with some responsiveness and no reactivity. I can't say that I've experienced the situation you describe with my heavy copper frypans (losing heat and getting "sticky"), but my gas stove also puts out a considerable flame for a regular NYC apartment stove. The more heat you can pour into the copper pan (i.e., the more powerful your heat source) the less likely you are to experience any heat loss issues with heavy copper. It's when you pull the copper pan off the stove and put it in the oven, where the heat transfer to the pan is drastically reduced, that you would really rather have low thermal conductivity instead of high.

[cake]

spatchcocked chicken

That's a new one to me (not that I am anything but a novice!). What is it?

[slkinsey]

spatchcocked chicken

That's a new one to me (not that I am anything but a novice!). What is it?

Spatchcock.

[MobyP]

The more heat you can pour into the copper pan (i.e., the more powerful your heat source) the less likely you are to experience any heat loss issues with heavy copper.  It's when you pull the copper pan off the stove and put it in the oven, where the heat transfer to the pan is drastically reduced, that you would really rather have low thermal conductivity instead of high.

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Certainly. I'm using a burner which I think is in the 15,400 btu range. Admittedly I'm loading the pan, so would expect a certain heat loss, but was surprised that it was less in the pentole than in the mauviel.

FWIW, from what I have been able to glean, I suspect your ICM Cose Casa "Le Pentole" cookware is not copper core, but rather heavy stainless with a thick encapsulated aluminum base. One would expect better heat retention from such a design.

I found (on this site) the following:

The triple magnetic base of stainless steel, silver alloy and copper assures energy saving and a fast and perfect spread of heat.

Unfortunately, after several decades, the original company went bust and sold off its different ranges. I don't know if this one is still made.

Edited October 12, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[cake]

spatchcocked chicken

That's a new one to me (not that I am anything but a novice!). What is it?

Spatchcock.

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I meant I didn't know what the word "spatchcock" meant. But I figured it out. Honestly, I thought it was a word that you had made up or something, I was surprised to find hits for it when I Googled it. I feel silly having asked as it shows my green-ness.

What's funny, though, is that my cooking is actually more competent than my apparently lack of cooking vocubulary would indicate. I've actually spatchcocked chickens before, but I just had no idea that this is what it was called--I thought I was butterflying it (having never heard the word spatchcock till you mentioned it!). And apparently I've also been braising for quite a while without knowing that this is what I was doing! (And I was even using the correct cookware!) Guess a lot of what I learned re: cooking has been a lot of monkey-see monkey-do, (from my mom) without proper vocabulary lessons!

Anyway, I am finally getting ready to order the Falk. Just trying to decide if I want the flared or curved sides on the small saucier...

Thanks Sam!

Cindy

Edited October 12, 2005 by cake (log)

[Darren72]

This is an incredibly useful Q & A - thanks everyone, esp. SLK.

I have a question about the scratch-resistance of stainless steel pans. A friend tells me that I'm "too careful" with my pans and that it is very difficult to scratch stainless steel by, for example, using a stainless steel spatula or spoon inside it. Is this true? How difficult is it to scratct SS?

Thanks.

[slkinsey]

It depends on how hard the stainless steel is and how hard the thing you're rubbing across the stainless steel is. In many cases, say a metal spoon or tongs, for example, the difference in hardness isn't likely to be all that great. Therefore the "scratching power" of the metal spoon or tongs won't be that great. If you're particularly concerned, you can always use wooden spoons.

To be honest, though, I have to ask why you're so concerned about scratching your stainless steel pans. A few scratches here and there aren't going to change the cooking properties of your pans -- and pans are tools, not objets d'art. If you ever clean your pans with something like Bar Keeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad (and IMO this is often the only way to get them really clean) you're going to have microscopic scratches on the metal anyway. Just shaking a sauté pan on the grate or moving a sauce pan to the side of the burner is likely to make a few little scratches. Most of the time if you see gleaming mirror-finished cookware without a single scratch, it's a sure sign that it's never been used.

So I say: relax and just use your pans.

[Darren72]

Interesting - thanks a lot. I guess I was concerned about scratching the interior of the pan because I thought it would - slowly over time - erode the cooking quality of the pan. I may have been making a false analogy with a nonstick pan.

Thanks for clearing this up.

By the way, I'm in the market for a stockpot (around 11-15 qt). I'm leaning towards the sitram professional 14qt on amazon for around $82. Any experience or thoughts?

[slkinsey]

By the way, I'm in the market for a stockpot (around 11-15 qt). I'm leaning towards the sitram professional 14qt on amazon for around $82. Any experience or thoughts?

Sitram is top-quality. If it's the right size, it would be a god buy.

On the other hand, you may be able to get a functionally similar stock pot (i.e., stainless body with aluminum base) for a lot less at someplace like Target. The stainless steel body probably won't be quite as heavy-duty, but otherwise they'd be similar.

[Darren72]

By the way, I'm in the market for a stockpot (around 11-15 qt). I'm leaning towards the sitram professional 14qt on amazon for around $82. Any experience or thoughts?

Sitram is top-quality. If it's the right size, it would be a god buy.

On the other hand, you may be able to get a functionally similar stock pot (i.e., stainless body with aluminum base) for a lot less at someplace like Target. The stainless steel body probably won't be quite as heavy-duty, but otherwise they'd be similar.

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Thanks. Will the more heavy duty stainless steel in the Sitram show up more as better durability, or will I notice differences while cooking? On the one hand, it seems if you are simmering stock for several hours, heat distribution is less of an issue: the heat will go everywhere. Or would the sitram actually perform better in this regard?

Thanks again for your help!

[slkinsey]

It's mostly a durability issue. This is not to say that the stuff you find in Target isn't durable in the context of occasional use in a home kitchen. It's just that the Sitram is designed for constant use in a professional kitchen.

[Steven Blaski]

Sam (or anyone) ... Do you know who makes the $199.99 Kirkland stainless set? I bought it a few months ago and love it -- it's both beautiful (those curves and lips!) and cooks evenly. I prefer it to the pieces of All-Clad I have. I chose it over the $50-cheaper Costco Sitram set because the particular pieces in the Kirkland were much more useful to me -- I actually use them all. Also it's more handsome than the Sitram.

The stamp on the bottom of each of the Kirkland pieces says "Made in Italy."

Here it is:

Kirkland Signature 13-piece Stainless Steel Cookware Set

Thanks.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Steven Blaski (log)

[slkinsey]

Kirkland Signature is Costco's store brand. I assume it is made for them on contract.

[mrbigjas]

Sam (or anyone) ... Do you know who makes the $199.99 Kirkland stainless set? I bought it a few months ago and love it -- it's both beautiful (those curves and lips!) and cooks evenly. I prefer it to the pieces of All-Clad I have. I chose it over the $50-cheaper Costco Sitram set because the particular pieces in the Kirkland were much more useful to me -- I actually use them all. Also it's more handsome than the Sitram.

The stamp on the bottom of each of the Kirkland pieces says "Made in Italy."

Here it is:

Kirkland Signature 13-piece Stainless Steel Cookware Set

Thanks.

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steven, i can't tell--do those have a disc bottom, or is the disc encapsulated? i'm curious because i have a couple of old pots that are a similar shape, but they have a disc bottom. and the disc isn't big enough--the flame on my stove (which is no big fancy stove, just a regular crappy old one) hits the pot on the curved part outside of the area covered by the disc, and burns things around the edges if i turn it up too high. it's maddening. i'm saving up for a new 3.5 or 4-quart pot to replace it, but haven't done so yet...

[Steven Blaski]

Kirkland Signature is Costco's store brand.  I assume it is made for them on contract.

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Yes, I know Kirkland = Costco but I was just wondering if anyone knows what company in Italy actually makes the cookware.

[Steven Blaski]

Sam (or anyone) ... Do you know who makes the $199.99 Kirkland stainless set? I bought it a few months ago and love it -- it's both beautiful (those curves and lips!) and cooks evenly. I prefer it to the pieces of All-Clad I have. I chose it over the $50-cheaper Costco Sitram set because the particular pieces in the Kirkland were much more useful to me -- I actually use them all. Also it's more handsome than the Sitram.

The stamp on the bottom of each of the Kirkland pieces says "Made in Italy."

Here it is:

Kirkland Signature 13-piece Stainless Steel Cookware Set

Thanks.

←

steven, i can't tell--do those have a disc bottom, or is the disc encapsulated? i'm curious because i have a couple of old pots that are a similar shape, but they have a disc bottom. and the disc isn't big enough--the flame on my stove (which is no big fancy stove, just a regular crappy old one) hits the pot on the curved part outside of the area covered by the disc, and burns things around the edges if i turn it up too high. it's maddening. i'm saving up for a new 3.5 or 4-quart pot to replace it, but haven't done so yet...

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Since I have a glass cooktop (not by choice) this has never been an issue. But you'd never want your flame to exceed beyond the base of the pan, so you would avoid that anyway, no?

If it helps, here are a couple of pix of the 8.5 quart pot:

[oraklet]

à propos scratching ss-surfaces: how will the ss-lining of copper pans take the intensive use of, say, a steel whisk, as when you make certain sauces? it is, after all, a very thin steel layer...

[mrbigjas]

Since I have a glass cooktop (not by choice) this has never been an issue. But you'd never want your flame to exceed beyond the base of the pan, so you would avoid that anyway, no?

oh yeah, definitely. the problem is, on this pan the disc is so small that you have to keep the stove on medium at the highest, which is annoying.

thanks for the pics; that does show it well.

Edited October 24, 2005 by mrbigjas (log)

[slkinsey]

à propos scratching ss-surfaces: how will the ss-lining of copper pans take the intensive use of, say, a steel whisk, as when you make certain sauces? it is, after all, a very thin steel layer...

I've been using all manner of metal tools and scouring powders in my stainless-lined heavy copper for going on 10 years now. There is nothing more than mild surface scratching -- something in the picometer area, perhaps.

[Laksa]

Does anyone know if there's difference in stickiness of polished stainless steel compared to brushed stainless steel? HSN featured a set of Roy Yamaguchi cookware with polished stainless steel cooking surfaces last night. The majority of cookware out there (all other ones I've seen) seem to feature brushed SS cooking surfaces. The presenter or Roy himself sort of suggested that polished stainless steel offers better stick-resistence.

Would like to know if there's any truth to that, or if polished SS offers any benefit, apart from the ability to stare at one's ugly mug while cooking.

[slkinsey]

Does anyone know if there's difference in stickiness of polished stainless steel compared to brushed stainless steel?

I own cookware with mirror polished and brushed interior finishes on the stainless steel, and I have never detected the slightest difference. Never mind that, unless you treat your pans like the Shroud of Turin, a mirror polished cooking surface won't stay that way for long anyway.

[oraklet]

à propos scratching ss-surfaces: how will the ss-lining of copper pans take the intensive use of, say, a steel whisk, as when you make certain sauces? it is, after all, a very thin steel layer...

I've been using all manner of metal tools and scouring powders in my stainless-lined heavy copper for going on 10 years now. There is nothing more than mild surface scratching -- something in the picometer area, perhaps.

←

i'm glad to hear that. thanks a lot!