Q&A -- Straining, defatting and reducing Unit 3

[mrbigjas]

for question #1: i have let stock simmer all night on a gas stove without incident. i did, however, get up several times throughout the night to make sure that the burner hadn't turned off or anything. i don't have problems doing that, though--if you're a heavy sleeper, it's really a matter of do you trust your stove enough to not go out?

oh, i can also answer question 2c: use turkey bones and meat...

[Marlene]

Maybe I should have been clearer. I know I should use turkey bones and meat, but which bones and meat? Legs, thighs, breast bone? Which bones make a better stock? I'm going to see if the store has neck bones and gibbets too.

[Rachel Perlow]

Question #1:

I'm using a gas cooktop now instead of a ceramic one. In the past, I've let the stock simmer overnight on the stove.  Is it still safe to do this with gas cooktop?  Or should I revise my plan and let it simmer all day instead.

I just leave it on the lowest flame setting all night. It's not windy in my kitchen and my stove has an auto relight feature, but even with less fancy stoves I've never had a problem with the flame going out.

Question #2

With Thanksgiving coming, I'll probably want turkey stock and i've never made it before.  (ok, maybe there are several sub questions here). 

a)  Can I use turkey and chicken stock interchangably?

b)  Is turkey stock more flavourful or stronger than chicken stock?

c)  what bones/meat do I use for turkey stock

d)  should I roast the bones first?

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a) You can use them interchangably, but there is a slight difference in flavor.

b) Um, it tastes more like turkey than chicken. Strength of flavor is relative to the proportion of bones/veg/water and also amount of reduction.

c) I use my leftover turkey carcass. If you want stock for Thanksgiving day rather than to use the leftover carcass, I'd just pick up a pack of thighs. Or, heck if your grocery store is doing a promotion where the turkeys are almost free, go ahead and use a whole turkey, just like chicken. I'd remove the breasts from the carcass as soon as it is cooked. If you don't feel like turkey breast sandwiches right then, wrap tight and freeze for later (slice after it is defrosted, not before freezing).

d) Like I said, I usually do turkey with leftover roasted carcass, but if you are making it without a leftover bird, that depends on if you want a dark or light stock.

[brittonv]

I was at the grocery store getting a bag of ice to help speed up the cooling of my new stock. It was there that I saw the dry ice for sale.

Is there some obvious reason not to just drop dry ice in the stock to cool it? It's CO2 so nothing should remain in the stock to weaken it. It'll just evaporate.

Any thoughts?

Vince

[mrbigjas]

c) I use my leftover turkey carcass. If you want stock for Thanksgiving day rather than to use the leftover carcass, I'd just pick up a pack of thighs.

our local butchers, and some of the grocery stores, also sell turkey necks and wingtips for practically nothing. that would work as well..

[Shalmanese]

I was at the grocery store getting a bag of ice to help speed up the cooling of my new stock.  It was there that I saw the dry ice for sale.

Is there some obvious reason not to just drop dry ice in the stock to cool it?  It's CO2 so nothing should remain in the stock to weaken it.  It'll just evaporate.

Any thoughts?

Vince

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Sure, why not. If you can get a cheap supply of dry ice. Personally, I find that simply suspending it in the sink full of cold water and changing the water 3 times is enough to cool it down. I don't see the danger in leaving it to cool for a whole *gasp* 1 hour to cool. However, if you absolutely must have cold stock right this instant, then dry ice would work, just watch out for splashback.

Oh... and you might get fizzy stock...

[Marlene]

well, I suppose one should post failures along with successes. It's been a while since I made beef stock, and as I was running low and the weather is cooling off, it seemed a perfect opportunity to make more.

I simmered and skimmed and after 12 or 13 hours, I defatted, strained and cooled. Chilled it for a couple of days then tried to take the fat off the top so I could reduce. From the beginning I ran into problems with defatting it seemed. I couldn't get all the fat off the stock which had gelled underneath. After some consultation, I gently warmed the stock, and scooped out as many of the large particles of fat that I could see and put it back in the fridge for a while to see if I could get the rest of the fat to rise to the top again.

Skimmed the rest of the fat after a couple of hours and set about reducing it. The pictures aren't very good, but the end result is I've got "stuff" in my stock.

The best way I can describe it is large particles of whitish stuff. (How technical). The stock has been frozen into cubes and in one mason jar. So here's my questions:

Is this stock any good?

Should I throw it out and start over?

Can I get rid of the particles somehow by thawing straining etc? Should I even bother to try?

What the hell did I do wrong?

[Fat Guy]

Nice countertops.

If the stock tastes good to you, I wouldn't worry about a little more or less fat and particulates. We're not running a four-star restaurant here -- our stuff doesn't have to be visually flawless. Sometimes, for whatever reason, the fat and stock want to be together, or you have other stuff coagulating in there. There are various processes you can use to get rid of a little more of it -- you can make a raft, you can use a defatting pitcher, you can keep heating and refrigerating forever -- but it seems like you've made most of it go away and really there's no law that says you've got to get rid of all of it. Fat and other "impurities" actually add flavor in many instances -- you may find that you get a better beef-vegetable soup out of this stock than out of a fully defatted and clarified one. I just wouldn't use it to make the most delicate sauces or a consomme.

You are to be commended for your dedication to the craft of making stock.

[Marlene]

It did taste fine when I tested it. I will try your theory out today then, as I kept two quarts of this stock back to make French Onion soup today. I was just a little startled since this hasn't happened to me before. And somehow, it just offends me to see it in there.

If for some reason I can't get over my feelings of being offended, can stock be thawed, re heated and re-frozen?

I've just liquified the stuff from the mason jar because it wasn't frozen, and I put it into a fat separator and I am getting fat rising to the top.

I know you say I shouldn't worry about it, but can I safely do this?

[Fat Guy]

You can heat and cool it all you like -- just don't let it sit at an in-between temperature; that's when it can attract bacteria and such.

[snowangel]

I thaw and refreeze stock all of the time. I just make sure that if it's been heated, it gets good and cold real fast.

Marlene, your problem sounds like a chicken stock I made a while back. I aways add chicken feet to my stock (usually just one or two to a gigantic pot), but this time, I had five in the freezer that were all stuck together, so I figured that more of a good thing is better.

The result was a wonderful stock, but it was far more gelatenous than normal, and I for the life of me couldn't get rid of all of the fat. And, I wasn't about to go out and buy one of those defatters that my tiny kitchen won't hold.

Remember. Fat is good. Fat is flavor.

[Shalmanese]

That doesn't look like fat to me, it looks like fine suspended particles. If you really want to get rid of it, you could make a consomme but, personally, I wouldn't worry about it. It's just extra protein and it'll add flavour.

[Taubear]

that baby looks highly desirable.

please sir, can i ask a question about simmering stock or am i too late? can i simmer in the oven (i've never tried it before)?

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I made my own stock pot with a tap out of a food grade plastic container [Hols 5 litres] and I bought a plastic tap to go with it. I cut a hole close to a corner [The corner is stronger] and about 2.5m from the base of the containers which was slightly smaller than the tap. I then fitted the tap to the container into the containers and tested it with some warm water to ensure it was leak proof. Make your stock as you usually do and once complete cool let stand to cool slightly before pouring the entire contents through a sieve or colander into the plastic container. Leave it on the bench to cool and let the sediment settle and the fat rise to the top. Pour off the beautiful clear stock into manageable containers ready for freezing. No fat, No sediment and the whole thing cost me about $5 dollars to make.

[UnConundrum]

Does anyone have an idea on the shelf life of a beef stock that is kept refridgerated? I used to think that a thick layer of fat on the top would protect it for a good while... but following the online course, we remove virtually all the fat. So.... let's say I plan to make soup tomorrow, and I take a quart of frozen beef stock out of the freezer and put it in the fridge. Tomorrow comes, and I get distracted, forgetting to make my soup. Is the stock still good a week later? The following week?

[Shalmanese]

Stock thats gone bad will usually smell sour due to the lactic acid from bacteria. If it smells like a winey, yougurty, sour soup, then toss it. However, just because it's not sour doesn't mean it's good either. When giving reccomendations online, people always tend to err on the conservative side. I've seen anything from as low as a day to as much as a week. Personally, I think it can last a bit longer than that but I'm not going to reccomend that you try.

[snowangel]

I think if you don't get to it and you aren't going to, I'd either re-boil and chill it, or stick it back in the freezer. I often thaw and re-freeze stock with no noticable deterioration.

[Marlene]

I have a quick question. I've been reducing pork stock today and it's not quite done. I have to go get ready for a formal event and I can't see myself standing in the kitchen in my ballgown spooning stock into ice cube trays.

Can I stop the reduction now, cool it, put it back in the fridge and finish it tomorrow?

[Dave the Cook]

I have a quick question.  I've been reducing pork stock today and it's not quite done.  I have to go get ready for a formal event and I can't see myself standing in the kitchen in my ballgown spooning stock into ice cube trays.

Can I stop the reduction now, cool it, put it back in the fridge and finish it tomorrow?

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You bet.

But if you change your mind and do the trays in formalwear, please post pictures.

[Lynnette]

Hi All,

I am new to eGullet but I love making stocks. I have just read through all the lessons and Q&A on this subject and thank Fat Guy and everyone else for such interesting posts and pictures . Even an ol' hand at making stocks has learned a lot here!

I was wondering if anyone else adds vinegar to the initial stock ingredients. I first learned of adding vinegar from Nourishing Traditions, by Sally Fallon & Mary Enig. My understanding is that the vinegar helps draw out calcium from bones in bone broths.

From these authors is an interesting article on broths, that I think you will enjoy: Broth Is Beautiful

[Shalmanese]

How much vinegar do you add and at what stage? Do you taste the vinegar in the end stock? I can't imagine any reasonable amount of vinegar could boost the pH enough to matter about unless you added it very early and then only later added the bulk of the water. However, I imagine the low slow simmer would evaporate all the acetic acid which would mean your left with just a pleasant sweetness at the end.

[Marlene]

I have a question on storing reduced cubes of stock. I always reduce my stock and freeze in ice cube trays. When they are frozen, I take them out of the tray and put them in ziplock bags in the freezer. The problem I seem to have consistently is the ice crystals forming within the bag.

This last time I even double bagged the cubes, and really made sure I got all the air out before closing, but I've still got all these ice crystals. I've got a new batch of stock that I've just frozen and I'd like to find a way to prevent getting these crystals.

Is there a better way to store stock cubes?

[Dave the Cook]

Have you tried corks? I hear they have magical properties when it comes to ice.

I don't think you can prevent them, especially if you're repeatedly opening up the bag to grab a cube or two. Why are they a problem, anyway?

[Marlene]

No one believe me about the corks, and if I had any real corks instead of the plastic that I seem to get in wine bottles these days, I'd try it. Besides, cork is just so cubes don't stick together. I never claimed they prevented ice crystals.

I guess it's not a problem it just seems like there's a lot of it and I wasn't sure if I could do anything to prevent it. I sort of look at ice crytals like freezer burn.

[Dave the Cook]

I'm pretty sure they're formed from moisture in the air that's in the bag. I know you say that you got it all out, but unless you're using a vacuum sealer, there's always going to be some left -- and of course, every time you open the bag, you let more in. We've seen how often you make stock, Marlene. I seriously doubt that freezer burn is a problem.

[fifi]

There is no way to prevent ice crystal formation in regular plastic bags. The conditions in a self defrosting freezer makes the problem worse. The moisture in the product stored sublimes into ice crystals. All of these regular bags are permeable to some extent so moisture is lost as well. The zip bags sold as "freezer" type are just thicker, still not the best for long term storage.

The exception is the vacuum sealing bags. They are made of a different plastic that has a much lower perm rating than the regular zip bags. Removing the air also gives sublimation "nowhere to go," so to speak.

I tend to store stock and reductions for a pretty long time so the ice cube trick doesn't work for me. I don't have the vacuum sealer thing and the thought of sealing individual cubes, so you don't have to drag the thing out to reseal, is just too fiddly to me. I use the smallest canning jars for the reductions, I think they are 4 ounces. If I just use half of that in some veggies for instance, the remainder will keep long enough in the fridge that I will use it up.

I have stored reductions in the little jars for months and they will have a few ice crystals on the surface at the most. If you fill them hot and a "vacuum" develops, even better.