TDG: Wine Camp: Salmon & Merlot

[Fat Guy]

Swimming upstream against the three-tier system.

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[tjaehnigen]

Fortunately, some states do allow direct shipment of wine from wineries and out of state retailers and wine auction places like winebid.com. Most of these states are in the west, but some are on or closer to the east coast (like WV and most recently, VA). There is hope.

[Fat Guy]

Thankfully, on the direct-shipping point at least, the trend for the time being seems to be in a positive direction.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...ST&f=24&t=23307

[Elissa]

CC: are there any coalitions trying to wrest the A from the BATF or otherwise help US laws and procedures, bureaucracies and heirarchies function better?

[tjaehnigen]

Free The Grapes is trying to help.

And I have written my elected officials numerous times. Grrrr.

[hotle]

craig,

GREAT article!

one of the things that's additionally frustrating to me is that the 'second tier' comes replete with 'good' wholesaler account reps and 'bad' account reps. let me take an example: i happen to enjoy flora springs' sangiovese, and not the blended italian up-scale they sell. it's less than 20 bucks, i've had several vintages, and have loved them.....especially the '95 and '98. problem is, at my local wine store, the fs distributor rep is of the 'bad' variety. and, it's the same rep for most of my area's stores......none of them like the guy, so none really stock the sangiovese. they have wines from the 'good' reps that they'd rather stock!

so, in addition to the increased costs we have to pay for the second tier, we also have to bear the politics of the wine biz as well, making drinkable wines unavailable in addition to being expensive when they are available.

bottom line: i'm trying to get enough of my friends (we meet every friday evening or saturday afternoon to taste at this store) to 'force' them to buy the wine. grass roots at its finest!

thanks for the excellent article again,

matt

[Fat Guy]

From the article:

Each of the tiers has one thing in common: taxes. They are all revenue sources and that is, of course, the main reason they all exist. This means they are unlikely to go away -- ever.

Of course, if eliminating the system reduced transaction costs and increased volume and efficiency, tax revenue might remain the same or increase. Alberta is an interesting case-study within Canada. My understanding is that the basically deregulated alcohol market there is a major revenue source.

But the economic forces at issue are not underlying causes -- they're just explanations of why the policies are entrenched. The real cause is cultural: vestigial puritanism and the widespread American view that alcohol is somehow sinful.

[Craig Camp]

As mentioned Free the Grapes is the leading organization fighting this mess. Visit their website at www.freethegrapes.org

(the image above is their mascot from their website)

[Carolyn Tillie]

Fortunately, some states do allow direct shipment of wine from wineries and out of state retailers and wine auction places like winebid.com. Most of these states are in the west, but some are on or closer to the east coast (like WV and most recently, VA).  There is hope.

It is far more complicated than you realize. I work on weekends for a Sonoma winery. For extremely indepth reasons (political, business, and moreso), we have the ability to ship to 49 of the 50 states (Utah being the only exempt one).

So there is hope, but I believe it is important that the laws regarding who can ship where and to whom and why is not so cut-and-dry and one may believe.

[Craig Camp]

For extremely indepth reasons (political, business, and moreso), we have the ability to ship to 49 of the 50 states (Utah being the only exempt one).

So there is hope, but I believe it is important that the laws regarding who can ship where and to whom and why is not so cut-and-dry and one may believe.

It is extremely cut and dry (dry being the appropriate word here). Your winery is either 'creatively' using the three tier system to ship to prohibited states or you are potentially facing felony charges in some states.

"For extremely indepth reasons" says it all.

[Craig Camp]

But the economic forces at issue are not underlying causes -- they're just explanations of why the policies are entrenched. The real cause is cultural: vestigial puritanism and the widespread American view that alcohol is somehow sinful.

It's not so "vestigial". That's why they teach kids in school that wine and cocaine are equally dangerous. Just say NO!

In Italy alcoholic beverages are cheap and easy to get. Kids can walk into a bar at age fourteen and order anything they want. It is not uncommon to see a group of teenagers sipping on beers in the square at night. The difference is they have just one beer not 15 like American kids do when they go on binges with forbidden substances. It is also common to see a working man in a bar at 10 a.m. having a mid-morning drink - just one. Yet, I have never seen anyone drunk. You never see winos passed out in the street. There is no one like 'Otis", Mayberry's lovable town drunk.

One of the results of Prohibition and the three tier system is the dominance of spirits over wine in the American marketplace. Drinking vodka and drinking wine is a very different concept.

I don't think this is what Martin Luther had in mind.

[Carolyn Tillie]

For extremely indepth reasons (political, business, and moreso), we have the ability to ship to 49 of the 50 states (Utah being the only exempt one).

So there is hope, but I believe it is important that the laws regarding who can ship where and to whom and why is not so cut-and-dry and one may believe.

It is extremely cut and dry (dry being the appropriate word here). Your winery is either 'creatively' using the three tier system to ship to prohibited states or you are potentially facing felony charges in some states.

"For extremely indepth reasons" says it all.

"For indepth reasons" REALLY means that none of us in the tasting room have been privy to know the exact answer. We speculate two different theories:

One - It is the oldest family-owned winery in California and there may be some grandfather laws we are unfamiliar with.

Two - The winery is partnering with a second winery that is owned and operated by a "Foundation" (State-owned? we are unsure). This second winery is non-profit and produces less than 2,000 cases a year. Some believe IT has shipping rights that the first, larger winery has tapped into.

Do either of those theories seem plausible? We have been assured that we are breaking no laws and I doubt a large winery would jeopardize its business in flagrantly promoting its shipping ability ("felonies"?).

[Craig Camp]

For extremely indepth reasons (political, business, and moreso), we have the ability to ship to 49 of the 50 states (Utah being the only exempt one).

So there is hope, but I believe it is important that the laws regarding who can ship where and to whom and why is not so cut-and-dry and one may believe.

It is extremely cut and dry (dry being the appropriate word here). Your winery is either 'creatively' using the three tier system to ship to prohibited states or you are potentially facing felony charges in some states.

"For extremely indepth reasons" says it all.

"For indepth reasons" REALLY means that none of us in the tasting room have been privy to know the exact answer. We speculate two different theories:

One - It is the oldest family-owned winery in California and there may be some grandfather laws we are unfamiliar with.

Two - The winery is partnering with a second winery that is owned and operated by a "Foundation" (State-owned? we are unsure). This second winery is non-profit and produces less than 2,000 cases a year. Some believe IT has shipping rights that the first, larger winery has tapped into.

Do either of those theories seem plausible? We have been assured that we are breaking no laws and I doubt a large winery would jeopardize its business in flagrantly promoting its shipping ability ("felonies"?).

There are no 'grandfather laws' when it comes to interstate shipment of wine. Everyone is supposed to play under the same rules. I also know of no allowances for non-profit.

They obviously have some kind of an arrangement with somebody. Who knows what?

Yes in some states it is a felony to ship wine directly to consumers.

[Carolyn Tillie]

For extremely indepth reasons (political, business, and moreso), we have the ability to ship to 49 of the 50 states (Utah being the only exempt one).

So there is hope, but I believe it is important that the laws regarding who can ship where and to whom and why is not so cut-and-dry and one may believe.

It is extremely cut and dry (dry being the appropriate word here). Your winery is either 'creatively' using the three tier system to ship to prohibited states or you are potentially facing felony charges in some states.

"For extremely indepth reasons" says it all.

"For indepth reasons" REALLY means that none of us in the tasting room have been privy to know the exact answer. We speculate two different theories:

One - It is the oldest family-owned winery in California and there may be some grandfather laws we are unfamiliar with.

Two - The winery is partnering with a second winery that is owned and operated by a "Foundation" (State-owned? we are unsure). This second winery is non-profit and produces less than 2,000 cases a year. Some believe IT has shipping rights that the first, larger winery has tapped into.

Do either of those theories seem plausible? We have been assured that we are breaking no laws and I doubt a large winery would jeopardize its business in flagrantly promoting its shipping ability ("felonies"?).

There are no 'grandfather laws' when it comes to interstate shipment of wine. Everyone is supposed to play under the same rules. I also know of no allowances for non-profit.

They obviously have some kind of an arrangement with somebody. Who knows what?

Yes in some states it is a felony to ship wine directly to consumers.

Okay, today I ASKED!!!!

Seems they have an arrangement with Viansa (a Sebstiani family-owned Sonoma winery). The gist of it involves the fact that Viansa is partnered (owns? unknown) with retail outlets all over the country (49 of the 50 states) and these retail stores are allowed to receive shipments of wine from their suppliers. The wine is then re-shipped within each state with various approved shipping vendors. I was told the name of the outlets, but it escapes me.

It has nothing to do with grandfather laws, non-profit status, or anything like that... (but see how rumors can get started???)

[Craig Camp]

What do Orthodox Jews, home winemakers and a New York City commuter have in common? They are among six New Jersey residents who are suing the state in an effort to get out-of-state wines delivered to their homes. At the same time, five Ohio wine lovers are also going to federal court to challenge their state's ban on direct-to-consumer shipments of wine.

[Craig Camp]

As of Oct. 1, North Carolina will join the growing list of states where consumers can call or e-mail an out-of-state winery and have wines delivered directly to their homes.

[Craig Camp]

As of this summer, residents of Hawaii are finding it easier to order wines they can't find in the state and have their purchases delivered to their homes.

[tjaehnigen]

If NY or, to a lesser extent, NJ or CT, falls and starts allowing direct wine shipments, all bets are off.

[redwinegulper]

I wonder how many wineries actually ship direct eventhough it is still prohibited. I did some work with a Long Island winery last year and they would ship to any state. Basically they ignored the law and were going to plead ignorance. I bet there are many smaller wineries that do this, small enough to fall under the radar. But this doesn't help the price, they sell at the suggested retail price and pocket the profits.

[Craig Camp]

I wonder how many wineries actually ship direct eventhough it is still prohibited. I did some work with a Long Island winery last year and they would ship to any state. Basically they ignored the law and were going to plead ignorance. I bet there are many smaller wineries that do this, small enough to fall under the radar. But this doesn't help the price, they sell at the suggested retail price and pocket the profits.

The classic end around is to pack it up for you and then have you drop it in the mailbox yourself. That way they are not sending it but you are sending it to yourself.

[Mark Sommelier]

Think downstream: imagine what that $4.99 bottle of Languedoc wine at the wine shop cost the importer before everyone has tacked on their markup. Pennies.

[Elissa]

As the NYTimes reports: Ken Starr and Robert Bork square off.

The courtroom battle over direct shipping may wind up in the Supreme Court.  Several challenges to the shipping laws have already gone to federal appeals courts — and resulted in contradictory decisions. The Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago determined in 2001 that Indiana's laws prohibiting direct shipping were constitutional.  But other appellate courts  decided this year that laws in North Carolina and Texas were not.

Because the issue pits two traditionally conservative causes — free trade and states' rights — against each other, it is  also a big deal for a Who's Who of conservative scholars, litigators and lobbyists.

In Mr. Starr's corner, working to end limitations on direct shipping, is Clint D. Bolick, a libertarian lawyer  who is  representing wineries and consumers in a suit in New York.

On the other side, pushing for the states' right to restrict sales, are Robert H. Bork, the onetime nominee to the Supreme Court who is advising wine wholesalers in the New York case,  and C. Boyden Gray, who was  White House counsel to the first President Bush and is now outside counsel to the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America.

Edited August 25, 2003 by lissome (log)

[Craig Camp]

Shipments of rare wines from outside the state to Texas consumers won't be challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, the commissioners decided in executive session Monday afternoon.

[Craig Camp]

From Wine Business Monthly:

The 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled today that Michigan's ban on direct-to-consumer shipments from out-of-state wineries is unconstitutional, overturning a lower court ruling. This is the second, complete legal victory for advocates of consumer choice in wine this year; the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a similar ruling overturning Texas' ban on June 26, 2003.

[herbacidal]

The classic end around is to pack it up for you and then have you drop it in the mailbox yourself. That way they are not sending it but you are sending it to yourself.

i don't understand.

are you referring just to tourists when visiting wineries and vineyards?